Koetsu

[MRJAZZ]

I have a P10 Exclusive and also an SP10MK3 (with an Artisan Fidelity plinth) - the P10 is overall a very nice sounding TT imo. Does everything quite well though not as resolving as the SP10MK3 and not as much extension in the bass. View attachment 97262

Hard to make a direct comparison as I have different tonearms and carts on each table. For the money though, I think the P10 is an excellent value. I would like to also get a P3 or P3a one of these days as they should be very competitive with the SP10MK3.

Thanks Joe for the feedback. I realize do to the different cartridges and arms not easy to compare, however do you sense any “leanness” to the presentation?
I find most DD tables to be very resolving and with excellent timing, however they generally can be a little “light” sounding compared to the better belt and idler drives.

 

[mountainjoe]

Thanks Joe for the feedback. I realize do to the different cartridges and arms not easy to compare, however do you sense any “leanness” to the presentation?
I find most DD tables to be very resolving and with excellent timing, however they generally can be a little “light” sounding compared to the better belt and idler drives.

The SP10MK3 is highly resolving and a bit on the analytic side, but I would not call it light sounding. In fact this table extracts rich mids and some of the deepest, most well articulated bass I’ve heard from an analog front end.

My DD tables don’t impose as much of a harmonic texture as the (belt driven) Clearaudio Innovation Wood I owned, so if that’s what you’re accustomed to, then a DD might sound lean or light to you (if I get what you mean by light sounding). That’s of course, just my personal opinion formed by listening to these particular tables and a few others - YMMV

 

[Don_Camillo]

Hi, Joe

I think you´re right with saying hard to make a comparision with different carts and tonearms mounted on each turntable. Especially those carbon arm tubes used with EA-10 and it´s version in PL-70LII or PL-50LII do sound tempting but attach a interesting signature to the sound. At the same time the sound changes if damping with silicon oil is attached or changed. On other hand I do not own a P-10 or P-3a and thus can´t say behaviour with EA-10 on a P-10 will be similar or not but with arm tubes beeing identically and interchangeable I would think of sounding quite similar.

 

[Don_Camillo]

Do you have any experience with a Pioneer Exclusive P10. If so, any sense how they might compare to other DD tables of that era (Denon DP 80, Technics Sp10, etc.)

I do not own a P-10 but Technics SP-10 MK IIa as well as two SP-15, SONY TTS-8000 and three different models of the Denon ufos and Pioneer PL-70LII but I would describe differences between SP-10 MK IIa or SP-15 and Pioneer PL-70LII quite similar as Joe did it for SP-10 MK3 and P-10. Denon ufos are close to SP-10 and SP-15 with going a bit darker, TTS-8000 is nice but not as good as all of the others

 

[mountainjoe]

Hi, Joe

I think you´re right with saying hard to make a comparision with different carts and tonearms mounted on each turntable. Especially those carbon arm tubes used with EA-10 and it´s version in PL-70LII or PL-50LII do sound tempting but attach a interesting signature to the sound. At the same time the sound changes if damping with silicon oil is attached or changed. On other hand I do not own a P-10 or P-3a and thus can´t say behaviour with EA-10 on a P-10 will be similar or not but with arm tubes beeing identically and interchangeable I would think of sounding quite similar.

Hi Don - I think you’re right wrt to similarity in tonearms on the Pioneer TTs. I should note that I don’t have any damping fluid in the P10 tonearm.

 

[RickS]

For those like me with no USB microscope to check VTA/STA, this seems to be an excellent starting point. And for my Koetsu Black, also the finishing point.

 

[Argonaut]

For those like me with no USB microscope to check VTA/STA, this seems to be an excellent starting point. And for my Koetsu Black, also the finishing point.
View attachment 97460 View attachment 97461

Loving the images Rick

 

[RickS]

You’re welcome Moon! Just got my first UHQR record in. It’s the Jimi Hendrix Experience “Are You Experienced” and I listened to it and loved it but later decided to tighten up on my Koetsus setup. Turns out when I put the Hudson VTA gauge up where it is in the picture, I was tails up a bit. Using a 180gr record to set the VTA as shown the images tightened up a bit, clarity got better on cymbals and the vinyl tracing sounds all but vanished. It’s better on all record weights now so I am good.

 

[marty]

For those like me with no USB microscope to check VTA/STA, this seems to be an excellent starting point. And for my Koetsu Black, also the finishing point.
View attachment 97460 View attachment 97461

This is really beautiful. The human eye is far more sensitive to vernier acuity than spatial acuity! The problem however, is that even if you think you can assess this accurately, it does not necessarily translate well to what is really important, which is the stylus rake angle. For that you have to know precisely how the stylus is mounted in the the cantilever!! You may think that that by getting the front of the cartridge perfectly perpendicular to the record, that your SRA will be perfect (approximately 92 degrees). But that is simply not true. The stylus can be mounted leaning further forward or backward in the cantilever so that an ideal adjustment may require raising or lower the rear of the arm accordingly. For example. take a look at post #8 on this thread in which Ron had is cartridge analyzed by JR Boisclair at Wally tools:

J.R. Boisclair / WAM Engineering Cartridge Analysis Service

I feel strongly that without optimal cartridge alignment and proper turntable set-up and ideal speaker positioning audiophiles are not capitalizing upon the sound quality of which their components are capable. One of the well-known, but not often talked about, perils of this hobby is the...

www.whatsbestforum.com

In short, the only way you can be assured of getting your SRA right is to set it either by ear (raising and lowering the arm and ignoring perpendicularity, which means nothing) or, if you want the top of the cartridge (hence arm) to be perfectly parallel with the record surface, you need to use a shim to correct for how your particular stylus is mounted in your cartridge using a service such as Wally tools. As an FYI, it took me years to understand this! Even after reading Fremer's writings on this for what seems like forever, I really didn't understand it in tangible terms, until I heard JR give a lecture on the subject at AXPONA this past spring!

 

[DasguteOhr]

great contribution thanks.
an exciting topic, the 92° cut was made so that no chip could form when cutting. At 90° degrees, a chip would form and would ruin the cut.
That's why I love the VTA riser on the fly of the TW tonearm.
different thickness lps 140-180 and 200g adjusted by ear I save myself the microscope and listen to music.
I'm giving away a few percent of quality but I can live with that.

 

[jadis]

great contribution thanks.
an exciting topic, the 92° cut was made so that no chip could form when cutting. At 90° degrees, a chip would form and would ruin the cut.
That's why I love the VTA riser on the fly of the TW tonearm.
different thickness lps 140-180 and 200g adjusted by ear I save myself the microscope and listen to music.
I'm giving away a few percent of quality but I can live with that. View attachment 97469

I wish most tonearms if not all will provide VTA on the fly adjusters. I had used the ET2 linear tracking tonearm and with the Koetsu Black and Rosewood Signature, I was able to tune the best setting by ear for most records.

 

[DasguteOhr]

A cheap retrofit is a micrometer screw. the problem is you need a fixed point in the base of the tonearm. otherwise changes the geometric setting of the tonearm. on the fly will not work, you have to adjust at stopped platter. there are purchasable vta riser exsample clearaudio,technics or fidelity research must keep perfect fit for the tonearm shaft. they 're expensive and rare.

ClearAudio VTA-Lifter

ClearAudio VTA-Lifter (Vertical Tracking Adjustment) steht für eine äußerst präzise Höheneinstellung Ihres Tonarms und sorgt für ein…

www.hifi-phono-house.de

 

[PeterA]

This is really beautiful. The human eye is far more sensitive to vernier acuity than spatial acuity! The problem however, is that even if you think you can assess this accurately, it does not necessarily translate well to what is really important, which is the stylus rake angle. For that you have to know precisely how the stylus is mounted in the the cantilever!! You may think that that by getting the front of the cartridge perfectly perpendicular to the record, that your SRA will be perfect (approximately 92 degrees). But that is simply not true. The stylus can be mounted leaning further forward or backward in the cantilever so that an ideal adjustment may require raising or lower the rear of the arm accordingly. For example. take a look at post #8 on this thread in which Ron had is cartridge analyzed by JR Boisclair at Wally tools:

J.R. Boisclair / WAM Engineering Cartridge Analysis Service

I feel strongly that without optimal cartridge alignment and proper turntable set-up and ideal speaker positioning audiophiles are not capitalizing upon the sound quality of which their components are capable. One of the well-known, but not often talked about, perils of this hobby is the...

www.whatsbestforum.com

View attachment 97467

In short, the only way you can be assured of getting your SRA right is to set it either by ear (raising and lowering the arm and ignoring perpendicularity, which means nothing) or, if you want the top of the cartridge (hence arm) to be perfectly parallel with the record surface, you need to use a shim to correct for how your particular stylus is mounted in your cartridge using a service such as Wally tools. As an FYI, it took me years to understand this! Even after reading Fremer's writings on this for what seems like forever, I really didn't understand it in tangible terms, until I heard JR give a lecture on the subject at AXPONA this past spring!

if I understand it correctly, JR based his reference on having the top of the cartridge body level. How does one know that when mounting the cartridge with the shims for that condition that it results in the tonearm tube being level? The head shell might not be aligned with the tonearm tube and the underside of the head shell surface might not be the same as the top surface of the head shell. All this can do is get one close unless it’s a coincidence that everything is perfect and then it still might not sound right.

The only way to do it accurately in my opinion is by ear. Eyesight with tools can be used to get it in the ballpark to save time.

 

[marty]

if I understand it correctly, JR based his reference on having the top of the cartridge body level. How does one know that when mounting the cartridge with the shims for that condition that it results in the tonearm tube being level? The head shell might not be aligned with the tonearm tube and the underside of the head shell surface might not be the same as the top surface of the head shell. All this can do is get one close unless it’s a coincidence that everything is perfect and then it still might not sound right.

The only way to do it accurately in my opinion is by ear. Eyesight with tools can be used to get it in the ballpark to save time.

Peter, above my pay grade! I'm sure JR can respond most appropriately.

I understand you point if the arm tube is tapered, but I have never seen a head shell that didn't have a uniform thickness. Have you? Another subject that was not even mentioned was zenith. How can you possibly account for that without knowing whether your cartridge was manufactured with zero zenith error? These errors can be considerable according to JR. While I agree that sonic trial and error can successfully navigate VTA, tracking force and anti-skate, (and unfortunately for pivoted arms, not necessarily uniformly cross the LP), it seems that zenith error is something you can spend untold hours trying to correct subjectively, whereas an objective measurement might be far more useful to address this properly.

 

[RickS]

Totally understand about using a microscope to dial in 92degrees SRA angle etc. and as soon as I get a USB microscope I’ll enjoy finding out how much off I have been all these years LOL.

I can only do zenith alignment by the cantilever and the grid lines of my protractor. However I can only hope for the best since we do not know 100% the stylus is mounted correctly to the cantilever without sending the cartridge off and paying someone to do that.

Finally, , without special USB microscopes and fozgometers there are ways to at least avoid gross errors in setup as described at the bottom of the page in the link below. Of particular interest was the part about getting azimuth aligned without having an oscilloscope and test records. Truthfully, I trust my own setting up over a large portion of turntable, cartridge dealers using whatever their tools might be unless they have a solid reputation.

The Koetsu story – Japanese art Part I

There is something special about Japan, tradition and modern high tech are often separated with only a very small distance from each other. The attention to even the smallest detail in some …

medialux.blog

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

if I understand it correctly, JR based his reference on having the top of the cartridge body level. How does one know that when mounting the cartridge with the shims for that condition that it results in the tonearm tube being level? The head shell might not be aligned with the tonearm tube and the underside of the head shell surface might not be the same as the top surface of the head shell. All this can do is get one close unless it’s a coincidence that everything is perfect and then it still might not sound right.

The only way to do it accurately in my opinion is by ear. Eyesight with tools can be used to get it in the ballpark to save time.

Hi!

Step one: measure the height of the cartridge under nominal tracking force to the nearest 0.25mm. Remove cartridge and install the 16mm tall dual axis WallyReference plus sufficient additive shims to equal same height as cartridge. Level the tonearm on azimuth and sra/vta axes.

Voila! Level underside of headshell and top surface of cartridge. This, of course, is just a REFERENCE - a starting, or home, point.

By the way, I see many occasions where the arm tube is NOT level with the headshell. 3D printed arms tend to be of greatest concern in this respect.

I read and responded very quickly. Did I answer your questions?

 

[PeterA]

Hi!

Step one: measure the height of the cartridge under nominal tracking force to the nearest 0.25mm. Remove cartridge and install the 16mm tall dual axis WallyReference plus sufficient additive shims to equal same height as cartridge. Level the tonearm on azimuth and sra/vta axes.

Voila! Level underside of headshell and top surface of cartridge. This, of course, is just a REFERENCE - a starting, or home, point.

By the way, I see many occasions where the arm tube is NOT level with the headshell. 3D printed arms tend to be of greatest concern in this respect.

I read and responded very quickly. Did I answer your questions?

Hello JR. I don’t really have any questions. I think all sorts of tools can be used to get one close as a starting point. I find that final adjustments are best done by listening.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

Hello JR. I don’t really have any questions. I think all sorts of tools can be used to get one close as a starting point. I find that final adjustments are best done by listening.

Hi Peter

You might be interested in this post:

Tonearm height & SRA misconception

It’s been widely accepted that changing a 9” tonearm’s height by 4 mm will approximately alter the SRA by 1 degree. This contradicts valid – to me - claims by audiophiles that they can hear the difference when the aforementioned height changes by a fraction of a mm. Bear in mind the tonearm +...

www.whatsbestforum.com

I almost never find any benefit with tweaking by ear following installation of an analyzed cartridge. When I do, it is usually only to VTF. This is because the ideal targets are a known quantity and are all measurable. This doesn't mean that having achieved the targeted alignment parameters will result in ALL records sounding their best, but they certainly will ON AVERAGE. This is because cutting styli are out of control (I measured one at 43/47 degrees this week which GUARANTEES crosstalk cut into every groove it makes) and also because many engineers don't have full control over their cutting alignment parameters.

However, we KNOW what the targeted cutting alignment parameters are on two of the four parameters (azimuth and radial collinearity, a.k.a, "zenith"). Of the two playback targets that are less certain, the VCA (Vertical Cutting Angle of the cutterhead torque tube) is within a +/- 1.5 degree range and so is the cutting rake angle, but both are subject to springback in the lacquer which causes the cutting angle to be different from the EFFECTIVE cutting angle that the, now relaxed, lacquer groove settles at. As mentioned in the post linked above, it is with gratitude that these two angles are the LEAST subject to causing mechanical distortions in playback when there is a variation between the effective cutting angle and the playback angle.

 

[mtemur]

Step one: measure the height of the cartridge under nominal tracking force to the nearest 0.25mm. Remove cartridge and install the 16mm tall dual axis WallyReference plus sufficient additive shims to equal same height as cartridge. Level the tonearm on azimuth and sra/vta axes.

Voila! Level underside of headshell and top surface of cartridge. This, of course, is just a REFERENCE - a starting, or home, point.

Well that sounds like SRA can be set precisely and easily at 92 degrees but IMHO it‘s only true if ;
- you can measure height of the cartridge precisely
- you can set the tonearm precisely level with wally reference
- corrective shims were made really precisely
- your tonearm, shim and cartridge couples perfectly
- SRA of the stylus measured correctly in the first place.

There are lots of “if”s on this approach and those kind of multi-assumption approaches are not error free. Lots of things can go wrong on this formula. First of all you have to buy a wally reference and send your cartridge for measurement and still have to buy shims. And that’s only for one cartridge. After that you can hope SRA will be 92 degrees only if you measure cartridge’s height precisely, set your tonearm perfectly level and be able to couple tonearm, shim and cartridge error free. And that’s only true with the assumption of your cartridge’s SRA is measured precisely by this service.

IOT limit variables and to be free from multi-assumption approach that is prone to error, it’s better to;
- mount the cartridge to tonearm
- set the VTF
- measure and set SRA using a usb microscope by yourself.

It’s not easy to use a usb microscope but not hard either. Last but not least I don’t ever want a shim between my tonearm and cartridge. It will surely, absolutely and horribly effect the sound in a bad way.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don’t ever want a shim between my tonearm and cartridge. It will surely, absolutely and horribly effect the sound in a bad way.

Why is this?