Koetsu

[RickS]

I respect they didn’t want to sell off to another manufacturer to make a Koetsu 2.0 Company.

Kiseki was an admirable brand before they first stopped making their beloved cartridges. The next version of Kiseki never quite achieved a similar following or regard and has been fraught with unsatisfied customers with unhelpful Kiseki warranty service etc.

 

[shakti]

While I, and many Koetsu owners, had hoped that Koetsu the company will still one day come back, there is a post by a founder of the Koetsu group in Facebook that paints a very sad picture on this matter. His information came from the long time UK DEALER Absolute Sounds. The Koetsu Epoch has come to be end.

In facebook it was asked for a firm confirmation, I am still waiting for this.
my latest informations (German Distributor) were different from the information the UK distributor might have announced.

The German Distributor (Axiss) is currently in Japan, we might get in a couple of days some more information.

too many rumours are arround this subject.

 

[Ron Resnick]

 

[lem321]

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I was hoping for better news from the Sugano family about the future of the Koetsu line. However, the longer it took to hear any news, the less likely it seemed Koetsu would return to business as usual. I respect the family for not wanting to sell the Koetsu name and legacy to just anyone. However, it leaves many of us audiophiles, who love the Koetsu cartridges and what they have contributed to our enjoyment of music, sad. On the other hand, it does not diminish my enjoyment of the Koetsus I still have and actually reinforces my appreciation of their beauty. Now, we audiophiles just need to find the right craftsman who can repair/rebuild these works of art when that inevitable time comes.

 

[TLi]

I just have a word with the Hong Kong dealer. They sell a lot of Koetsu carts.

The manager said the staff in Koetsu is still negotiating with the family with intention to take over the company. In the past two decades, all manufacturing and repairs were done by the staff. The owner rarely participated.

The situation is not hopeless. There is a small chance that the staff will take over. We just have to wait and see a little longer.

 

[jadis]

I just have a word with the Hong Kong dealer. They sell a lot of Koetsu carts.

The manager said the staff in Koetsu is still negotiating with the family with intention to take over the company. In the past two decades, all manufacturing and repairs were done by the staff. The owner rarely participated.

The situation is not hopeless. There is a small chance that the staff will take over. We just have to wait and see a little longer.

Do you mean they have new stocks? What models?

 

[TLi]

Do you mean they have new stocks? What models?

There are quite a few new Koetsu in stock. Most of them are cheaper models. The expensive ones with diamond cantilever are almost gone.

 

[shakti]

There are quite a few new Koetsu in stock. Most of them are cheaper models. The expensive ones with diamond cantilever are almost gone.

The German distributor received beginning the year a first batch of Koetsu carts, cheaper models (I received some) He trusts in an ongoing Koetsu business.
a new 2024 Koetsu price list, reflecting the new situation and new distributor processes, were sent to the German Koetsu dealers recently.

So I am in a good hope, that the Koetsu family owned business will continue, but this might take some time.

 

[jadis]

Well, it gets more mysterious as now I have read a bit conflicting reports from Germany, HongKong, Sweden and UK. From 2 of my sources, I have heard more in the line of the UK distributor. And there was a video posted on the 'talk' of the UK distributor.

 

[jadis]

So now, the 'news' of the continuation have one that is to be run by staff, another, by a Japanese markerting company, another by the brother, and another pertains to service related jobs only upon reopening. I would imagine that the source, or distributor, who has talked to the Sugano heirs is to one to be the more accurate.

 

[Johan K]

In time we will have all the answers for sure…
No need to rush or get stressed about this.. We all just have to sit tight in the boat and wait.. There will always be hope… .

If there is the end of the Koetsu Era, than I am one happy guy, to have been a part of that.
Even if my Blue Lace will come to an end with no return, I will not cry over spilled soup, but be happy for the time and pleasure it has given me .

Money lost.. ??
Yea sure… not soooo nice, but it is still only money.. -it’s not the end of the world…

In the end I hope for the best, and that maybe some day, the cartridges, with the Koetsu legacy will raise again

/ Jk

 

[jadis]

My own thoughts if there is indeed a 'continuation'. Many would have had thought of these too, I suppose.

1. Quality control. I was told that Sugano san, checks each and every cartridge that goes out to be sold. As to how, I don't know, as to instruments and methods used. There was a stone model where a friend bought wherein he spotted a 'tiny gap' at the bottom where the gold cover was placed. It was sent back to the dealer and upon checking, Sugano said the product was well within their production tolerances, and that he personally checked it before its release. The question is, who will do this among those who took over the company.

2. Voicing. This is subjective of course, and virtually all Koetsu owners know the meaning of the term 'Koetsu sound'. Will the successors be so adept at this house sound, given that this 'sound' was 'taught' to the son by the father decades ago?

3, Rebuilding control. I had only 1 such experience in many decades of a rebuilt stone that came back with mistracking problem. It was sent back to Japan and back to the owner free of charge and all was perfect after that. Without the expertise and knowledge of Sugano, do we trust fully the works of the staff, without a 'senior' or trained successor who knows the secret recipe of the sound that Sugano wanted and designed?

4. Future models. It has been said too that Sugano san listens to all kinds of stones for its 'sound' . He has to like it to approve it. Who will do this?

Everything or every factor is important but if there is a new company, the immediate concern will be, do they sound like the Sugano-era cartridges. If not, even the rebuild will not also sound the same as the old era models.

 

[jadis]

In time we will have all the answers for sure…
No need to rush or get stressed about this.. We all just have to sit tight in the boat and wait.. There will always be hope… .

If there is the end of the Koetsu Era, than I am one happy guy, to have been a part of that.
Even if my Blue Lace will come to an end with no return, I will not cry over spilled soup, but be happy for the time and pleasure it has given me .

Money lost.. ??
Yea sure… not soooo nice, but it is still only money.. -it’s not the end of the world…

In the end I hope for the best, and that maybe some day, the cartridges, with the Koetsu legacy will raise again

/ Jk

Totally agree with you, Johan. We Koetsu lovers are all for continuity of getting the same sound as we love, and we love the Koetsu sound.

 

[shakti]

We Koetsu lovers are all for continuity of getting the same sound as we love, and we love the Koetsu sound.

Fortunately the Koetsu lovers managed the change of sound from Sugano Father to Sugano son.
So I am sure, there will be again Koetsu lovers for the future sound of Koetsu.

 

[retired farmer]

The cartridge I lusted over that I never bought. Makes me feel cheap now. Should have bought on.

 

[Inline Six]

My own thoughts if there is indeed a 'continuation'. Many would have had thought of these too, I suppose.

1. Quality control. I was told that Sugano san, checks each and every cartridge that goes out to be sold. As to how, I don't know, as to instruments and methods used. There was a stone model where a friend bought wherein he spotted a 'tiny gap' at the bottom where the gold cover was placed. It was sent back to the dealer and upon checking, Sugano said the product was well within their production tolerances, and that he personally checked it before its release. The question is, who will do this among those who took over the company.

2. Voicing. This is subjective of course, and virtually all Koetsu owners know the meaning of the term 'Koetsu sound'. Will the successors be so adept at this house sound, given that this 'sound' was 'taught' to the son by the father decades ago?

3, Rebuilding control. I had only 1 such experience in many decades of a rebuilt stone that came back with mistracking problem. It was sent back to Japan and back to the owner free of charge and all was perfect after that. Without the expertise and knowledge of Sugano, do we trust fully the works of the staff, without a 'senior' or trained successor who knows the secret recipe of the sound that Sugano wanted and designed?

4. Future models. It has been said too that Sugano san listens to all kinds of stones for its 'sound' . He has to like it to approve it. Who will do this?

Everything or every factor is important but if there is a new company, the immediate concern will be, do they sound like the Sugano-era cartridges. If not, even the rebuild will not also sound the same as the old era models.

So....Sugano was way over 80 years old - do anyone of you believe, that at this age, you still can produce such a thing as a cartridge - with delicate miniature parts under a microscope - and further - Koetsu had an output at one year at about 1000 - 1200 carts. It is impossible to do this amount as a one man show. A guy like Jan Allaerts - who does it alone till this day, has an output of around 400 cartridges - and he is waaay younger. So - if you ask me - all the manufacturing techniques (which are the same for each and any cart) are given to some people, who did the manufacturing. The old man would have done the management, dealer communication - and maybe some cartridge building or quality control. With the latter, there are also no mysterious tools - the only was is - to mont the cartridge with all correct specs in a tonearm, put a special test record onto the platter, and take some measurements (you can watch how that works on you tube - while Michael Fremer visited Hi Fiction / EMT). All these mystic things are at some point ridiculous...And with Suganos brother, the German distributor hopes he will take over - it might be a man some years younger - but noch 20 years....so it is also a man in his late years - I doubt, that anyone of you will start being head of a company at this stage in life. Maybe he will do so - but then it will be extensive - which the new selling structure through agent already show us. So - most of what we all own was for sure NOT handbill by the old master in the last years - it was made by his employees - which are extremely good craftsmen - who learned maybe from him. Koetsu always had employees - such legends as Matsudaira San - who designed the Vermillion while he was working for Koetsu. I think we must calm down a little bit - and try to understand - as unique a Koetsu might be - it is a cartridge - a very old fashioned one in terms of technology. The magic of its sound lays somewhere else - not alone in the hands, which built it. It is the special diamond cut, the way the tip is fixed on the boron rod (Ogura needle), the aluminium pie were the boron is glued in (two piece cantilever), the child, the coil material, the magnet circuit and the different magnets used as also the housing. Do you believe, that Sugano sits there in his holy room and listened to different stones by tapping them....???? - In fact it is way more certain, that he tried to use what he could get at a good price - and to be honest - beside the Coral Stone - the difference between the stones is sooooooo small - that we never will know if it is covered by manufacturing tolerances. I bet with you all - no-one could detect a difference between an Onyx and a blue lace in a blind test - same arm, same phono stage - same pressing on the same deck. Manufacturing tolerances are waaay bigger - that what differs in most off the stones. So - please let us come down - and honour a true legend for what he was! All the best - Ekki

 

[jadis]

Fortunately the Koetsu lovers managed the change of sound from Sugano Father to Sugano son.
So I am sure, there will be again Koetsu lovers for the future sound of Koetsu.

unless it will be Funikiho's son who was honed by him, as the 3rd generation craftsman, I will have lesser confidence. or shall we now say, a theoretical confidence in such 'sound'.

 

[jadis]

So....Sugano was way over 80 years old - do anyone of you believe, that at this age, you still can produce such a thing as a cartridge - with delicate miniature parts under a microscope - and further - Koetsu had an output at one year at about 1000 - 1200 carts. It is impossible to do this amount as a one man show. A guy like Jan Allaerts - who does it alone till this day, has an output of around 400 cartridges - and he is waaay younger. So - if you ask me - all the manufacturing techniques (which are the same for each and any cart) are given to some people, who did the manufacturing. The old man would have done the management, dealer communication - and maybe some cartridge building or quality control. With the latter, there are also no mysterious tools - the only was is - to mont the cartridge with all correct specs in a tonearm, put a special test record onto the platter, and take some measurements (you can watch how that works on you tube - while Michael Fremer visited Hi Fiction / EMT). All these mystic things are at some point ridiculous...And with Suganos brother, the German distributor hopes he will take over - it might be a man some years younger - but noch 20 years....so it is also a man in his late years - I doubt, that anyone of you will start being head of a company at this stage in life. Maybe he will do so - but then it will be extensive - which the new selling structure through agent already show us. So - most of what we all own was for sure NOT handbill by the old master in the last years - it was made by his employees - which are extremely good craftsmen - who learned maybe from him. Koetsu always had employees - such legends as Matsudaira San - who designed the Vermillion while he was working for Koetsu. I think we must calm down a little bit - and try to understand - as unique a Koetsu might be - it is a cartridge - a very old fashioned one in terms of technology. The magic of its sound lays somewhere else - not alone in the hands, which built it. It is the special diamond cut, the way the tip is fixed on the boron rod (Ogura needle), the aluminium pie were the boron is glued in (two piece cantilever), the child, the coil material, the magnet circuit and the different magnets used as also the housing. Do you believe, that Sugano sits there in his holy room and listened to different stones by tapping them....???? - In fact it is way more certain, that he tried to use what he could get at a good price - and to be honest - beside the Coral Stone - the difference between the stones is sooooooo small - that we never will know if it is covered by manufacturing tolerances. I bet with you all - no-one could detect a difference between an Onyx and a blue lace in a blind test - same arm, same phono stage - same pressing on the same deck. Manufacturing tolerances are waaay bigger - that what differs in most off the stones. So - please let us come down - and honour a true legend for what he was! All the best - Ekki

No, I never said Sugano was physically or manually producing each cartridge. It is unthinkable at such age. My point was that Fumihiko was trained personally by his late father Yoshiaki, but Fumihiko never trained a son, from my reliable source. There are more personal details which I chose not to mention publicly as it was from a private chat. The old man , and his late father, never even provided any technical paper, even a tiny one, to show specs, graphs, measurements, etc. This method alone is the mystical one considering its high price. No tools, no decor, not much markings but just a box with it's logo. So I base my opinion of what we do not know about the technical methods. The next group will have to follow or not, I do not know. Do I believe Fumihiko sat down to listen to all the stones he chose ? Yes, because I was told so by my source. And Fumihiko not too long ago had rejected a special request to make a Granite version. Why ? Obviously because he didn't like the sound and it would make a 'bad' representation of his brand name. There was already a member here, who made a qualification, or a short review of about 4 different stones, and he made some distinction of 1 over the other. I know him very well. If the magic of its sound lay somewhere else like the materials and weaving etc done with it, it would have been easy for other cartridge makers to repair or rebuilt the cart, and if that is the case, nobody would have wanted to pay $3,000 or more to have Koetsu do it. The 'others' will just have a booming business on this facet alone. My points have exactly been made to honor the legend, by stating that there will be some difficulties to be encountered in continuing this legacy with an 'outside party or parites'. If another clan comes in and maintain pound for pound of the Koetsu sound, that would be the best. But how easy can that be? That's what is on my mind. Many people have told me they believe the next group would not be able to make the sound the same, but there is always a possibility that it can. And for the sake of keeping that name, legacy and legendary status, I am all for it. Why not?

 

[Inline Six]

No, I never said Sugano was physically or manually producing each cartridge. It is unthinkable at such age. My point was that Fumihiko was trained personally by his late father Yoshiaki, but Fumihiko never trained a son, from my reliable source. There are more personal details which I chose not to mention publicly as it was from a private chat. The old man , and his late father, never even provided any technical paper, even a tiny one, to show specs, graphs, measurements, etc. This method alone is the mystical one considering its high price. No tools, no decor, not much markings but just a box with it's logo. So I base my opinion of what we do not know about the technical methods. The next group will have to follow or not, I do not know. Do I believe Fumihiko sat down to listen to all the stones he chose ? Yes, because I was told so by my source. And Fumihiko not too long ago had rejected a special request to make a Granite version. Why ? Obviously because he didn't like the sound and it would make a 'bad' representation of his brand name. There was already a member here, who made a qualification, or a short review of about 4 different stones, and he made some distinction of 1 over the other. I know him very well. If the magic of its sound lay somewhere else like the materials and weaving etc done with it, it would have been easy for other cartridge makers to repair or rebuilt the cart, and if that is the case, nobody would have wanted to pay $3,000 or more to have Koetsu do it. The 'others' will just have a booming business on this facet alone. My points have exactly been made to honor the legend, by stating that there will be some difficulties to be encountered in continuing this legacy with an 'outside party or parites'. If another clan comes in and maintain pound for pound of the Koetsu sound, that would be the best. But how easy can that be? That's what is on my mind. Many people have told me they believe the next group would not be able to make the sound the same, but there is always a possibility that it can. And for the sake of keeping that name, legacy and legendary status, I am all for it. Why not?

You might got me wrong: Of course you need exactly the materials Koetsu are made of...starting at the specialcantilever design and stylus cut. And of course Granite is not among those materials - it has a reason, why the stone bodies were selected in the way we had it. But if a skilled cartridge builder - like the ones who worked for Koetsu - as the old man could not do it anymore - the got his advice for sure - other than that - we would have cartridges, which would sound different since a long time...but that is not the case. So there was knowledge transfer - and the biggest miracle lays in the materials - building a cart, which has this "old fashioned" technology - which the Koetsu have to this day - is no rocket science - if you have all the correct ingredencies... So if Sugano could not do it himself the last years - there are people who manufactured those carts one by one..and those people know exactly how it must be made. Other than that - Sugano would have corrected their work with any cartridge , which left the factory. Sound differences between stone bodies as a result of the body material (letting alone the coral stone) is something I highly do not beliefe is possible.What is possible is, that 5 Koetsu sound different - may it Stone body carts or Urushi or Rosewood. If we compare 4 Urushi - we will not hafe 4 identical cartridges - as they are handmade. While adopting the right pressure while sparing the wire of the suspension - with just a slight amount of pressure difference - and you habve a slightly different compliance - which will affect immediately the sound - as you get a different damping figure. I had 3 years ago the chance to compare 4 Rosewood Signature - and each sounded a little bit different - and it is also a myth - that we users will - even with the utmost care - get the same adjustment, whenever we adjust a cartridge. So - we have slight variations in the making, and with the adjustment - and this is waaay bigger - than the difference between an Onyx and a Blue Lace. Regarding rebuilds....no one will get this special stylus cut - nor this needle - it is not a standard Ogura model (as Lyra's do also use custom made stuff from the same company)....So all the retippers - be it VdH or weher ever used something else - not to speak about the damping rubber - if Thant needed to be replaced - or other parts. So it is obvious, that you must send the cart to the manufacturer - to get back, what you once bought. What I mean is - that the action in rebuilding such a gem - the stuff a skilled specialist will do - is no myth. To put it in different words: A motor specialist can repair a BMW and also a Mercedes if he gets the original parts from both companies - and often he does it better - then Mercedes or BMW. If we are talking of super skilled specialists - and that is what we would find at Koetsu (as the old master was not able to do it anymore) - the difference is more into the special parts - like silver cladded coil wire - wood of a certain age - and how it fits the cartridge motor, the stylus, damper and needle etc. As nit Sugano himself made the carts the last years - there are people who know how you built a Koetsu! - That is what I wanted to say.....all the best - Ekki

 

[Ron Resnick]

The way Inline Six characterizes things sounds right to me.

I have no idea if this is correct but I read from reports that the sonic differences in stone bodies were trivial* and covered up by sample to sample build variation (as Inline Six says), but that different stone bodies were used mainly to distinguish different levels of parts selection and matching and build time -- that the more expensive stone bodies somehow had parts more carefully selected and matched and more care and time spent on putting the innards together.

Is this correct?

* Of course different hardness levels of different stones could cause different resonances or damping which, in theory, could affect the sound.