Listening Room Intelligibility Test

[mep]

If I never hear that Shelby Lynn recording again I will be just fine. It sounds better on systems that have no real bass below 50 Hz because the bass is way overblown on full range systems.

 

[NorthStar]

---Me, I just don't like that album anyway (music).

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, Tim, I know. What I was hoping for was some who had scored well in room intelligibility could try changing their source for a less resolving source & do the test again - to see if it changed as Fas42 predicted & I suspect is correct. In other words, it might prove to be a useful measurement for analysing how resolving a device actually is (besides listening to it, that is ).It could help bridge the listening Vs measurements divide? I just don't know how sensitive the MATT test is? Great! Look forward to your results.

OK, John...unfortunately I got busy last night and forgot to listen to the Shelby cut. I did listen, very quckly, this morning. I hear 3 quick bass notes at around 45-46 seconds, but it would be hard to mistake this for one sustained note, because all 3 are not of the same value. What I hear at 0:47, is a full step slide up on a single string, which is three notes, and I think I hear an electric bass, not a stand-up. What you're hearing as quick picks of the string is probably the the string plucked on the first note, then passing over two frets on its slide up to the third. I qualify this with the I think, only because it can take more than listening to one 3 second passage, twice, to ID an electric bass vs and acoustic one, at the kind of tone settings the player has chosen (if this is an electric) which is warm, dark, and the attack transients are not emphasized. I'll try to listen more tonight.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

Tim,
From memory, it's the electric bass I'm talking about. I'll just check now - 0:46/0:47 - an electric bass - sounds like one long sustained bass note - it resolves into three very quick plucks with start/stop between each

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,
From memory, it's the electric bass I'm talking about. I'll just check now - 0:46/0:47 - an electric bass - sounds like one long sustained bass note - it resolves into three very quick plucks with start/stop between each

Yeah, I heard a triplet at 0:46 or thereabouts (actually there are a couple of them in that neighborhood). At 0:47, I heard the slide. It wouldn't be surprising if this were missed by some people/systems. That bass is tuned to a very deep tone and the player has no nail in his pluck at all, just a brush of flesh on a big string; there's hardly any treble in there at all, so the attack is very soft; if you're hearing at that level of detail, you're hearing pretty well. I think that's what audiophiles call micro dynamics. Let me check again tonight and see if I really did hear the player's finger pass over the frets on that very short, soft slide. I don't think audiophiles have come up with a term for that one yet. It would be much softer, much subtler than the usual micro details we talk about like the swishing of clothing and the squeaking of pedals being picked up by instrument microphones.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

What you think is a bass slide is actually a 3 plucks on the same string giving the same note (this is from memory). It's the last bass before Shelby starts singing.
It's this that I reckon is intelligibility but comes from the source - obviously your room has to have intelligibility also or you wont' hear it.
That's why I was interested in those that had good room scores in the MATT test to try this test - change their source & see if they can/cannot hear the 3 distinct sounds & if their MATT score changed i.e if the MATT test could also act as an equipment intelligibility test, not just a room test?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

What you think is a bass slide is actually a 3 plucks on the same string giving the same note (this is from memory). It's the last bass before Shelby starts singing.
It's this that I reckon is intelligibility but comes from the source - obviously your room has to have intelligibility also or you wont' hear it.
That's why I was interested in those that had good room scores in the MATT test to try this test - change their source & see if they can/cannot hear the 3 distinct sounds & if their MATT score changed i.e if the MATT test could also act as an equipment intelligibility test, not just a room test?

No, I hear the three plucks. I also hear a slide. Two separate events at two different times.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

What I'm telling you is that the slide is actually 3 plucks with distinct stops between each - it sounds like a slide on some systems, but isn't!

 

[jkeny]

I'm looking at it in Audacity & at 0:46.15 & at 0:46.95 there are two disturbances in the waveform which I'm no good at interpreting - it looks like it might be oscillations riding on the bass note wave. It certainly doesn't look like the note starts & stops 3 times. I'll try & extract this & also a pic of what I'm seeing in Audacity.

Looking at it more carefully & comparing it to other bass notes - the stuff riding on the waveform is the beginning of a bass note pluck -it is the same waveform as starts each of the bass notes earlier in the piece.

So, unless someone corrects my interpretation, Audacity seems to confirm in it's waveform trace that there are 3 plucks of the same note in this section of the WAV.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm looking at it in Audacity & at 0:46.15 & at 0:46.95 there are two disturbances in the waveform which I'm no good at interpreting - it looks like it might be oscillations riding on the bass note wave. It certainly doesn't look like the note starts & stops 3 times. I'll try & extract this & also a pic of what I'm seeing in Audacity.

Looking at it more carefully & comparing it to other bass notes - the stuff riding on the waveform is the beginning of a bass note pluck -it is the same waveform as starts each of the bass notes earlier in the piece.

So, unless someone corrects my interpretation, Audacity seems to confirm in it's waveform trace that there are 3 plucks of the same note in this section of the WAV.

It wouldn't necessarily look like the note stops and starts 3 times, depending on the picking technique. If the musician was lightly brushing the string, already vibrating, with the flesh of his finger, the attack transients would be very soft. It might not show up as any kind of hard stop/start at all. Interesting stuff.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

It wouldn't necessarily look like the note stops and starts 3 times, depending on the picking technique. If the musician was lightly brushing the string, already vibrating, with the flesh of his finger, the attack transients would be very soft. It might not show up as any kind of hard stop/start at all. Interesting stuff.

Tim

Yes, sorry about my descriptions - I find it hard to describe, not being a musician. The note doesn't die to silence, obviously - it's just that the fingering technique stops the vibration for a split second before the renewed energy of the string being vibrated.

It would be interesting if others joined in also & eventually we could nail down if the MATT test would also reveal in it's measurements what is being actually heard.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

....and if one of them is a slide, there would be a disturbance, as you put it, that I suspect would show up in Audacity but would also be very subtly audible -- it's the point at which the finger brings the metal of the string in contact with the metal of the next fret up, if this is a fretted electric bass. There would be a pluck, then two fret contacts.

This is fun for me. A convergence of playing technique and audio reproduction. I could get deep into the weeds of this one.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, sorry about my descriptions - I find it hard to describe, not being a musician. The note doesn't die to silence, obviously - it's just that the fingering technique stops the vibration for a split second before the renewed energy of the string being vibrated.

It would be interesting if others joined in also & eventually we could nail down if the MATT test would also reveal in it's measurements what is being actually heard.

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is infinitely more interesting to me than the MATT test, because it speaks to what the system is capable of resolving musically. Thanks for this excellent bit of thread drift...

Tim

 

[jkeny]

....and if one of them is a slide, there would be a disturbance, as you put it, that I suspect would show up in Audacity but would also be very subtly audible -- it's the point at which the finger brings the metal of the string in contact with the metal of the next fret up, if this is a fretted electric bass. There would be a pluck, then two fret contacts.

This is fun for me. A convergence of playing technique and audio reproduction. I could get deep into the weeds of this one.

Tim

But it doesn't sound like a slide - it sounds like a very fast stop followed by a very fast re-energising of the same note done twice (hence my description of 3 notes).

 

[jkeny]

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is infinitely more interesting to me than the MATT test, because it speaks to what the system is capable of resolving musically. Thanks for this excellent bit of thread drift...

Tim

It interests me too, Tim but I also think that it could lead to an extension of the MATT test to equipment as well as rooms, if what I describe is visible on the MATT test.
Remember, the room will also have to be capable of this level of resolution, not just the equipment so I believe the intelligibility of both are important.

BTW, this was pure luck - the room in question hadn't been treated in any way but it was a large room in an old house & the speakers were pulled out from the wall a couple of feet. We were testing the sound of a new device (one of my DACs, as it happens) & this was a very noticeable difference between his existing Cyrus 8 CD player & my DAC

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

But it doesn't sound like a slide - it sounds like a very fast stop followed by a very fast re-energising of the same note done twice (hence my description of 3 notes).

I'll listen again tonight, but I think we may be having a semantic discussion at this point.

Tim

 

[mojave]

The link to the MATT test is no longer working. Is it available elsewhere?

 

[jkeny]

I'll listen again tonight, but I think we may be having a semantic discussion at this point.

Tim

Tim, if you look at the section of the track in Audacity that I noted the timings of you will see the waveform that I mention. I don't think we are talking semantics - you hear it as a bass slide & so do a lot of others. I'm saying that it is two plucks on that same string, giving three of the same note in quick succession


Somebody else, on another forum, has confirmed it also:

Did I report elsewhere (can't remember) that with Dariusz's interconnect cables I was able to hear this for the first time, despite the fact I would have sworn BLIND that you were all imagining it before.

Screen shots attached:
The first one shows what I'm talking about & the times are correct. There are no more bass notes after this - it is what you are calling the "bass slide", Shelby starts singing a second or two after this

The second is a more zoomed in pic (ignore the timings on this one as Audacity seems to go astray on timings after a move

 

[Bruce B]

Tim, if you look at the section of the track in Audacity that I noted the timings of you will see the waveform that I mention. I don't think we are talking semantics - you hear it as a bass slide & so do a lot of others. I'm saying that it is two plucks on that same string, giving three of the same note in quick succession

If I were looking at that graph, I'd say there was either a polarity or DC offset issue as well.

 

[jkeny]

If I were looking at that graph, I'd say there was either a polarity or DC offset issue as well.

Can you educate me Bruce, I'm no expert in this?