"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

[bonzo75]

That’s not accurate. We had several high level discussions about Mobile Fidelity and the greater concern was doing the right thing over advertising dollars.

this is where you called "MoFi haters" thoughtless, by referring to others as thoughtful.

Do Mobile Fidelity Vinyl Re-issues Have a Digital Step in the Process?

What's the motivation for attacking TAS ? what was the motivation for attacking MoFi? What is the motivation when someone posts a report on a particular piece of equipment? if the report is interesting and valid, as was the MoFi thread, then I am not looking at the motivation. Personally I...

www.whatsbestforum.com

For what Valin said, people can read from here

Do Mobile Fidelity Vinyl Re-issues Have a Digital Step in the Process?

WBF’s monthly organic traffic is 12,614 according to google analytics. TAS’s monthly organic traffic is 200,000.

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Elliot G.]

I may be wrong but my interpretation of Audire's point is not that reviewers should be purchasing equipment and then reviewing said equipment; rather that their objectivity would be less subject to debate if there wasn't equipment on a long term loan or available accommodation pricing.

reviewers should be willing to put their own $$$ where heart lies. If they won’t then why should I be willing to trust their “opinions”?

Facten, I didnt take it like that but nonetheless all three options are flawed.
If someone bought something only means they liked it and may preclude them from being honest and open to something they didnt. I see this reaction all the time at shows and many of my industry friends see it as well.
Long term loans obviously can have the same result and may beexaserbated by the owner exerting pressure because of this "loan".
Preferrred treament on pricing to me is the worst choice as this to me is the most compromisable and leaves open the resale to make money at a later date. How much of a discount? terms? IO know Industry people that have purchased gear far cheaper than I as a delaer could back in the day.

Of the three choices Im ok with loans however this is a knifes edge to walk. We all give reviewers product to evaluate. What is the proper time for that? How does returning these products effect the review process and the reviewers ability to continue his work?
I don't have these answers but if a reviewer has a certain product and he clearly points out that items superior abilities it is a problem for them removing it and then trying the next products with something inferior.
I think this all comes back to Who do you trust?
This is the readers decision but I for one feel the press has done alot for audio in the ways I have mentioned and some maybe less than forthright but I dont believe that they all are.
One last thing from me. All reviewers do not have the same expertise and experience and in this I believe the magazines dont do a good enough job in enlightening all those that write for them.
If I wrote to TAS I would want to hear what RH has and JV has so that I could learn something that maybe I dont know.

I dont want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

[cjfrbw]

Who cares if there is a political industrial complex and critics get 'free stuff'? It's kind of standard operating procedure in all hobbies. It may be the only way to keep the explicators in business.

There is an insatiable desire amongst audiophiles for audio poetry, and it is part of the charming daft of the hobby. Seductive creative writing is a form of consumable in and of itself.

If it generates pride of ownership, that's not necessarily bad. Not everybody can bob and sample from system to system to obtain any firm comparisons. The permutations are too many.

 

[Audire]

This is a fantasy and can never happen. If this was the case the only reviews would be from rich people that bought something they probably new very little about.
If i cant buy a Porsche I can't express an opinion on the car even if I drove it extensively?
How many people on the planet can buy even what you own and then spend thousands of hours to learn enough to write cogent educated reviews? with experience and many competing products sampled that all need to be purchased. THis is just not reality
Im thrilled you like your system and that you are succesful enough to afford it however that alone DOES NOT qualify you to be a reviewer and certainly not to be an expert.
I know a lot of people that own a Ferrari and cant drive at all. I know even more that have a Wolf or subzero or other high end appliances that cant cook. I have two friends that have Steinway Grand Piano's that cant play a lick. These are who want to write reviews on quality and performance

Elliot,

I believe many would like to see more objective reviews. IMO, even the appearance of impropriety needs to be removed from the hobby. If not ….

IMO print magazines will be out soon. YT reviews and the like - which presently have severe limitations - are the wave of the future.

Perhaps someone will develop a high end audiophile app for reviewers and make it accessible for us common folk, then we could each listen to complete systems and make up our own minds. Though I don‘t consider Jay from Jay‘s Audio Lab a good reviewer per se (and he now takes $$$ from manufacturers) IMO he’s on to something …

 

[Elliot G.]

Who cares if there is a political industrial complex and critics get 'free stuff'? It's kind of standard operating procedure in all hobbies. It may be the only way to keep the explicators in business.

There is an insatiable desire amongst audiophiles for audio poetry, and it is part of the charming daft of the hobby. Seductive creative writing is a form of consumable in and of itself.

If it generates pride of ownership, that's not necessarily bad. Not everybody can bob and sample from system to system to obtain any firm comparisons. The permutations are too many.

Agreed. The only way to not do this requires a huge financial investment into a business model that wont work and wont get funded.
Shouldn't a review publication have its own purpose built facilitiy with multiple listening rooms and all the reviewers have access too?
Shouldnt they all get equal access and training on whats in the facility. Shouldnt they all have good rooms and access to the best software?
Shouldnt they all learn how to speak in the same language?

wake me please LOL

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot,

I believe many would like to see more objective reviews. IMO, even the appearance of impropriety needs to be removed from the hobby. If not ….

IMO print magazines will be out soon. YT reviews and the like - which presently have severe limitations - are the wave of the future.

Perhaps someone will develop a high end audiophile app for reviewers and make it accessible for us common folk, then we could each listen to complete systems and make up our own minds. Though I don‘t consider Jay from Jay‘s Audio Lab a good reviewer per se (and he now takes $$$ from manufacturers) IMO he’s on to something …

I agree its the future. I know Jay and have done buiness with him. He is a reseller of gear and a dealer now for things as well. He buys only what he thinks he can resell, thats smart but not what you are looking for. Jay only has minimal experience in the high end. You can't have it made to order.
Jay never had a turntable until recently and he has only the one. What is his background? What does he know about music? is he a concert goer? Does he listen to classical music, is all his listening based on his 80 song playlists of audiophile stuff. All the stuff he plays that I have heard is that. All of this what it is, not a judgement but from him many here would learn nothing as they are way down the path in front of him and have finished school, gone to college and grad school and have multi years of experience.
Maybe he will be the next great reviewer but for now he is a student learning at school , he is not a master. He is one person , making money, expressing his opinions.
Robert Harley is far , far , far more knowledable than he and RH is a very honorable guy but alas he isnt on youtube.
I was lucky. I was there 50 years ago with those who created the HE, Pearson, Dahlquist, Sequerra, Nudel,Mike Kay,Bill Johnson, etc etc. We all learned as we went along and none of them ever felt they knew all the answers. This is not the contemporary way of flash and dash.

Without the past there would have never been the present. Without TAS there would have been no Magico ( which I see you have)
I agree that they are all not great but by the same line they are all not bad or corrupt. The system isnt great but it is what we have and here you are exp[ressing your opinions, just dont forget that those are just your thoughts and not those of many others

 

[Lagonda]

In all fairness Fremer did a hearing aid review for Stereophile years ago ! I would call that full disclosure !

I don’t fault their pursuit, just what they accept to sustain it.

Experienced ears, means old ears, many which aren’t what they use to be. Even Fremer (whom I normally like) didn't pick up on the digital signature on MoFi LPs, etc., etc., etc. Perhaps reviewers should write some articles about their own deteriorating hearing?

I’d prefer not to have to pay for my system either, but I’m willing to because it’s worth it. IMO, reviewers should be willing to put their own $$$ where heart lies. If they won’t then why should I be willing to trust their “opinions”?

 

[cjfrbw]

As far as hearing acuity, a lot of audiophiles readily admit that their non-audiophile spouses seem to have better absolute hearing, they just don't have the same priorities.

Also, neurologic networks/learning cultivated over time and experience and cross referenced by other layers of experience can't be readily duplicated by 'raw talent', whether the instruments have blunted or not.

 

[Al M.]

Painting the entire industry with the same brush is IMO just plain wrong. Many if not most that are on this site would have no idea about any of the gear that exists or even know the language without the magazines. Are there faults?of course. are some better than others? of course.
My history with them goes back a very long time and I am not stating this to be anything but factual, without HP and J Gordon alsmost no one would be here or understand anything about the high end audio business and the equipment.
I have learned a lot from them and if honest most would say the same thing. The magazine business model is difficult if not impossible to please all. It was tried as a subscription only one, that didnt work. I can give you a better model but there is no funding that can make it work. They are a business and have to make a profit or at least pay thier bills and break even.
They have provided a huge service to the Audiophile and the audio Industry as well.
1). advertising
2) exposure- without this most of the small builders could not exist
3) descriptions and instructions for best use and results
4) opinions
5) reviews - whether you like them or not as a retailerand know a distributor- everyone quotes them back to us
6) language by which we try to communicate

Catagorizing every reviewer and every magazine as something evil is demonizing all for the errors of some or a few.
All of us can make their own choices and opinions however we are influenced and educated by others. A group that share an opinion is fine however it doesn't make their choices correct for everyone else.

I personally have lots of issues with the way things are done and find much of what happens unfair and an unequal playing field. The real issue to me is what can be done to change that. We have YOUTUBE, online groups, forums etc and although thier is more diverse opinions at the end of the day I am not sure that most of these are better or even equal to the best of those who continue to try and educate us.
Like I said some are educated and informed others just have part of the story which get presented as facts.
What I have said many times is one has to figure out what they don't know. Audio have numerous products, unlimited combinations. various factors like room and set up , and all of these determine the outcome.
Our review process has some that address a lot of this and are IMO honest and reliable and others that are influenced and bias by factors that are discussed. I dont want to paint them all as the same becasue they are not and saying that IMO is offensive and not enlightened.

Many good points here. I am critical myself about long-term loans of equipment, disagree with Robert Harley's article and think Ron raised important questions. Yet I do have to admit that RH can be an excellent reviewer who describes things as they are (his MQA debacle notwithstanding). I owned two of the DACs that he reviewed, and I agreed in both cases to 90 % or more with his reviews of these DACs in both content and wording (I did not buy them because of these reviews, BTW).

 

[Audire]

In all fairness Fremer did a hearing aid review for Stereophile years ago ! I would call that full disclosure !

I don’t recall that one. Does he use a hearing aid? Has he publicized his own hearing test results?

 

[Lagonda]

I never read that one. Does he use a hearing aid? Has he publicized his own hearing test results?

Not to my knowledge. Maybe we should make publishing our own hearing test part of a WBF requirement ! A lot of us would instantly loose credibility !

 

[Audire]

Not to my knowledge. Maybe we should make publishing our own hearing test part of a WBF requirement ! A lot of us would instantly loose credibility !

Maybe those who make comments about system sound should! But one would think reviewers would desire to publish theirs …

 

[Elliot G.]

I am sure that many would be astonished listening to something truly world class versus whats in their family room.
I think we should be more concerned with the qualifications of the reviewer than the bad economics at hand. I also believe one call tell by the work and diversity there of if they are or have been coerced by outside sources. There are those that always tought the same stuff every show , every place every time yet harldly see anything else.
Do the work and your homework its really easy to throw stones . Maybe some of them should come listen to your system?????

 

[the sound of Tao]

Not to my knowledge. Maybe we should make publishing our own hearing test part of a WBF requirement ! A lot of us would instantly loose credibility !

We should probably also be doing some alcohol random breath testing during our listening sessions … on a bright note my Apple ultra watch alerted me I have serious atrial fibrillation when I hear Diana Krall sing… oh well, no more Diana Krall lol…

 

[Gregadd]

No one is completely objective.

Not to my knowledge. Maybe we should make publishing our own hearing test part of a WBF requirement ! A lot of us would instantly loose credibility !

Been there, done that.

 

[KeithR]

Car magazine writers don’t make a lot of money and certainly not enough to buy exotic cars, but don’t ask for long term loans of them because of it. The whole “feel bad for the audio writer” who can’t pay for ultra echelon gear rings hollow and many less than rich folks have aspired to buy expensive gear if they truly want it.

note, there are many reviewers who flat out say they love the piece but can’t afford it so it went back. Where is the harm in that?

honestly RH doesn’t really compare and contrast gear anymore despite his 1mm system on loan.

 

[Audire]

I am sure that many would be astonished listening to something truly world class versus whats in their family room.
I think we should be more concerned with the qualifications of the reviewer than the bad economics at hand. I also believe one call tell by the work and diversity there of if they are or have been coerced by outside sources. There are those that always tought the same stuff every show , every place every time yet harldly see anything else.
Do the work and your homework its really easy to throw stones . Maybe some of them should come listen to your system?????

Elliot,

Sorry you think so crudely about family room systems! The majority of high end audio systems are in family rooms. Dedicated listening rooms make up only a small percentage of the audiophile landscape. You’d be surprised what a truly world class system can sound like in a family room.

No one is throwing stones, but rather voicing concerns over the qualifications of certain reviewers. I and many others consider “hearing” a pretty important qualification for being a trusted audiophile reviewer.

Any qualified impartial reviewer is welcomed at my home. They will need to pay their own expenses though...

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot,

Sorry you think so crudely about family room systems! The majority of high end audio systems are in family rooms. Dedicated listening rooms make up only a small percentage of the audiophile landscape. You’d be surprised what a truly world class system can sound like in a family room.

No one is throwing stones, but rather voicing concerns over the qualifications of certain reviewers. I and many others consider “hearing” a pretty important qualification for being a trusted audiophile reviewer.

Any qualified impartial reviewer is welcomed at my home. They will need to pay their own expenses though...

Dear Joe,
I have been doing this for a very long time and been in many homes. I do understand the differences and wont be surprised. I doubt however that many here have heard truly worldclass systems. It seems way to easy to critize what we dont see and hear.
I did not disparge your system, me thinks you are a little too sensitive about that, but you thinking all the magazines and people there are working in a rag and are dishonest is just BS. You disparaded all reviewers not some. I hope you enjoy what you bought however you ARE throwing stones. BTW everfy one can hear not everyone knows how to listen. There is a difference.

I have been to RH home and heard his system. I will tell you is he can hear and listen and is very qualified., Whether you like him is another story.
This below is not throwing stones? putting them all in the same box?


"I consider the mag rags - including the reviews - as purchased manufacturer advertising. I don’t see how a reviewer may be completely objective with long term loans or highly discounted purchases."

Have your opinion , enjoy what you are fortunate to own, assuming they are all wrong and corrupt and you the knower of all truth is really boring and hard to read.

It seems there is lots of criticism but no solutions. This isnt the automobile business. My client who owns the largest VW store in the country does more gross business in one year than the entire audio Industy. This is not a comparison at all.

 

[astrotoy]

An obvious solution is the Consumer Reports model. They have 7 million subscribers and a testing budget of $25M. They buy all of the equipment they test and then resell the ones that can be resold (typically the cars they buy). They are also a non profit that doesn't take advertising. If an audio mag/website took that model and spent a total of $2M a year, with subscription base of 10,000, the cost of the testing budget would be $200 per subscription per year. In addition would be the actual cost of putting out the magazine which might be a few hundred K more those costs. So let's say an annual subscription cost of $250 per year. Obviously, that high a price probably means a much lower number of subscribers and an even higher subscription cost.

Larry

 

[Lee]

An obvious solution is the Consumer Reports model. They have 7 million subscribers and a testing budget of $25M. They buy all of the equipment they test and then resell the ones that can be resold (typically the cars they buy). They are also a non profit that doesn't take advertising. If an audio mag/website took that model and spent a total of $2M a year, with subscription base of 10,000, the cost of the testing budget would be $200 per subscription per year. In addition would be the actual cost of putting out the magazine which might be a few hundred K more those costs. So let's say an annual subscription cost of $250 per year. Obviously, that high a price probably means a much lower number of subscribers and an even higher subscription cost.

Larry

Larry,

The problem with that is it has been tried and the magazines went out of business. We must attract ad dollars to fund the operation. The more important question is how does sales interact with editorial. If there is a Chinese Wall then no one is getting corrupted in the process.