"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

[Lee]

If he is a dealer and he comments on rooms at shows or other dealers products through his videos then in my eyes he has no integrity.

At the very least, he should not comment on any systems that use any of the brands he has a financial interest in.

 

[Lee]

You clearly indicated that your preference towards solid state amps and the reason for that SS measures well on the bench but SET measures poorly. Vinyl measures as bad as SETs compared to CDs but you prefer vinyl. Any CD player easily puts 100K turntable and 10K cartridge into shame in terms of frequency response (not frequency range and don’t tell me about response beyond 20KHz) , THD, S/N ratio, dynamic range etc. If you care about measurements listen to CDs.

“I’d rather review products that measure and sound good”. With all due respect that’s a weird explanation for avoiding SETs and low powered tube amps. People around me enjoying SETs never mention measurements, they simply don’t care. I think it requires a level of appreciation.

Just a reminder as someone with deep experience in creating hires digital recordings...digital has it's own share of distortions: lossy ADC and DAC, zero crossing distortion, jitter, etc.

 

[Lagonda]

At the very least, he should not comment on any systems that use any of the brands he has a financial interest in.

He has been a "pump and dump" guy from the beginning , promoting something and selling it used right away, he is a used seller that uses Youtube to promote his products !

 

[tima]

At the very least, he should not comment on any systems that use any of the brands he has a financial interest in.

I think that needs be the other way around. He should not comment (words, videos) on any category of component with which he competes.

But even that is slippery slope. Righteous dealers are fine talking their own book. They should not comment publicly on other dealers. There is enough internecine warfare in audio already.

 

[Another Johnson]

This is the part of the thread where someone points out that since this YouTuber is banned from WBF (and so he can’t respond), it’s best not to discuss him.

 

[Lagonda]

This is the part of the thread where someone points out that since this YouTuber is banned from WBF (and so he can’t respond), it’s best not to discuss him.

And stop showing his stupid videos !

 

[Lee]

Jay's in a tough position in that he wants to do audio full-time but making real money on it via just a YouTube channel is very difficult unless you have 100K+ or even 200K+ subscribers. I believe he would say that he needs to make money in other areas like audio consulting for a fee, being a dealer, and flipping gear to make it all work.

The tiny size of the industry may not support a decent living for all the various YouTubers out there.

 

[tima]

The tiny size of the industry may not support a decent living for all the various YouTubers out there.

Nowadays anybody with a cell phone and YouTube, or an HTML editor and a WordPress account can call himself an audio reviewer. The industry is over saturated as it is. To think you can "make a decent living" via youtube for what is essentially a hobby is a red flag to me.

 

[Muser]

Bonzo wrote:

It’s not the same as a restaurant review.

Your reply is surprising to me. You're an astute guy but in this instance, not a careful reader. I did not say they are the same and thus most of the strawmen you raise after this comment are inapposite.

What I did write was:

Audio reviews for me are like reading restaurant reviews.

The Google ratings of restaurants or of movies on IMDb are done on the back of hundreds and thousands. How many reviews do you think you can find for AF0? Two owners on this forum, and Fremer’s review. For lower priced hifi it will be more but still usually small in numbers, and with many agendas.

We have different ideas of what reviews can accomplish. I can respect and appreciate the work a reviewer puts into a review, more so for a few and a lot less so for the majority. But no review provides any more import than "maybe I should listen to that." Ten thousand reviews of any product only hint at what I might experience. No reviews tell me what I should buy without using my own judgment. I'm responsible for determining if the product can satisfy me, not the review or the reviewer.

Moreover, what’s worst that can go wrong following a restaurant review. You will have one bad lunch or dinner which is immaterial.

I disagree. With a restaurant review, you must pay to taste the meal. The meal may be great, awful or more likely somewhere within the range of mediocrity. But, you must pay to have the experience. With audio you can have numerous auditions, including an extended audition at home without having to pay out of pocket. So, the cost to try a meal is simply more expensive, if you don't like it. Yes many audio components are far more expensive than any meal, but you can sample to your delight without having to pay for the privilege.

Your comments are surprising because you've gone to great lengths to listen to gear yourself - It's surprising to me that you seem to place so much weight on a review, as though it's going to save you from a mistake. I applaud your efforts to hear various systems/components, but I'm non-plussed that you place so much weight on reviews.

I think Fremer does good work though our tastes don't overlap. I think John Atkinson may do the best job of intertwining subjective opinions with measurements, but I can never tell whether what Atkinson praises is something I will know what it sounds like or actually like it. Dick Olsher seems to capture something useful to me, though I would not buy anything just because he praised it. Reviews are, to me, only a place to start to then exercise my own evaluation.

Larry

 

[Bobvin]

What i find really sad in todays high end audio is that a lot of shops are appointment only .
20 years ago i could just walk in a lot of shops play some music have a Coffee and get a sound expirience

Lots of words could be written as to the why of this, changing priorities and a shrinking customer base not the least of which.

Speaking for myself, I’d invested a fair amount in an acoustic remodel of an existing space in my home before I became affiliated with Rhapsody.Audio, so the benefit for those who visit they get to hear components in a well sorted room.

As its my home I ask for an appointment so I can do all I can to make the visit as pleasant as I can for my guest. And unlike Bob’s place in Brooklyn I don’t have several rooms so if a guest wants to hear multiple speakers I can explain it takes me about an hour to move one pair out and another pair in. (I don’t like having other speakers in-room and shuffling and properly setting up 250 lb speakers does take a little effort.)

Not the walk-in and listen experience of the past — hopefully much better. I do go out of my way to make it a positive experience even if what is on offer turns out to be not exactly to my guests personal taste. (Silly guests!)

 

[bonzo75]

And unlike Bob’s place in Brooklyn I don’t have several rooms

sorry to hear

 

[Another Johnson]

Lots of words could be written as to the why of this, changing priorities and a shrinking customer base not the least of which.

Speaking for myself, I’d invested a fair amount in an acoustic remodel of an existing space in my home before I became affiliated with Rhapsody.Audio, so the benefit for those who visit they get to hear components in a well sorted room.

As its my home I ask for an appointment so I can do all I can to make the visit as pleasant as I can for my guest. And unlike Bob’s place in Brooklyn I don’t have several rooms so if a guest wants to hear multiple speakers I can explain it takes me about an hour to move one pair out and another pair in. (I don’t like having other speakers in-room and shuffling and properly setting up 250 lb speakers does take a little effort.)

Not the walk-in and listen experience of the past — hopefully much better. I do go out of my way to make it a positive experience even if what is on offer turns out to be not exactly to my guests personal taste. (Silly guests!)

This is at the root of why I quit being a “dealer by appointment “ in 1987.

The interruption of my life was not worth the potential gain of a sale.

My original thinking was that it would be fun to meet others (guests) with my interest in music. But it turned out that most (not all) guests were obsessed, self absorbed nutters who had no regard for anyone’s time but their own. And then, after the dullard’s time wasting, there was nearly always the attempt to get it for wholesale. I did not need their money … I was simply extending my hobby.

I found it to be much more fun to hang out at the serious bricks and mortar stores and commiserate with the good guys on the sales staff, at times and in places that were optimal for me.

To this day I do not go to listen at people’s homes by appointment. I do sometimes use their phone time to ask about availability and price. I might order, or not. But I do not waste their time.

If the manufacturer can’t come up with a legitimate dealer for auditions, there must be a problem in product support or ability to deliver in a timely manner. Or perhaps more likely, a problem with potential market and profitability.

My first piece of CJ gear was from Lyric in NYC. Later, Spearit. Both serious bricks and mortar dealers. Can anyone name a current dealer where you can compare CJ to other high end electronics using a few different high end speakers? I can’t think of one. CJ has a limited comparative factory demo capability and a network of guys who sell a handful of lines with minimal inventory out of their homes.

I am not going to waste their time by trying to audition in a meaningful comparative way. Even if they’re willing to bring the demo to me in a multi day road trip. I am no more comfortable imposing than I am being imposed upon.

 

[Bobvin]

This is at the root of why I quit being a “dealer by appointment “ in 1987.

The interruption of my life was not worth the potential gain of a sale.

My original thinking was that it would be fun to meet others (guests) with my interest in music. But it turned out that most (not all) guests were obsessed, self absorbed nutters who had no regard for anyone’s time but their own. And then, after the dullard’s time wasting, there was nearly always the attempt to get it for wholesale. I did not need their money … I was simply extending my hobby.

I found it to be much more fun to hang out at the serious bricks and mortar stores and commiserate with the good guys on the sales staff, at times and in places that were optimal for me.

To this day I do not go to listen at people’s homes by appointment. I do sometimes use their phone time to ask about availability and price. I might order, or not. But I do not waste their time.

If the manufacturer can’t come up with a legitimate dealer for auditions, there must be a problem in product support or ability to deliver in a timely manner. Or perhaps more likely, a problem with potential market and profitability.

My first piece of CJ gear was from Lyric in NYC. Later, Spearit. Both serious bricks and mortar dealers. Can anyone name a current dealer where you can compare CJ to other high end electronics using a few different high end speakers? I can’t think of one. CJ has a limited comparative factory demo capability and a network of guys who sell a handful of lines with minimal inventory out of their homes.

I am not going to waste their time by trying to audition in a meaningful comparative way. Even if they’re willing to bring the demo to me in a multi day road trip. I am no more comfortable imposing than I am being imposed upon.

Everyone gets to choose how they engage in this hobby. Bricks-n-mortar stores are few and far between, and few have truly well sorted rooms. The industry is changing and for boutique and bespoke manufacturers unlike the big commercial heavyweights private intimate experiences is often preferred.

But all this is off topic back to long-term loan discussion.

(None of gear I have for audition is on loan.)

 

[Jeffy]

I don’t see how you can make money buying and selling like Jay. If you want to buy a magico for example, I’m sure you can get close to 50% off. He would have to buy it at least 60% off to make money. Who is going to sell it that cheap?

 

[hopkins]

I don’t see how you can make money buying and selling like Jay. If you want to buy a magico for example, I’m sure you can get close to 50% off. He would have to buy it at least 60% off to make money. Who is going to sell it that cheap?

He is selling "consulting" services: advice, or even complete system selection and implementation. In the systems he installs, he sells the brands that he represents (as an official "dealer", I presume) but also gear he's bought for his system/channel. Check out his latest videos.

He's never going to give a negative review of a product that he will want to sell back. So he's not getting "long term equipment loans", but that does not mean he's not interested in some way.

As for his customers, there are a lot of people out there that are willing to simply "throw money at the problem". They are not interested in the "hobby", they just want to have a high-end system.

 

[hopkins]

Nowadays anybody with a cell phone and YouTube, or an HTML editor and a WordPress account can call himself an audio reviewer. The industry is over saturated as it is. To think you can "make a decent living" via youtube for what is essentially a hobby is a red flag to me.

See my previous post.

There are some YouTube reviewers that are now putting quite a lot of effort info their reviews, and have a more professional approach. They also sell consulting services.

Here's another example:

https://youtube.com/@stjernholmreviews?si=Hd4IpSOzNVf5kFC0

This channel's approach to reviewing is much more comprehensive and sophisticated than Jay's Audio Labs'.

 

[gleeds]

See my previous post.

There are some YouTube reviewers that are now putting quite a lot of effort info their reviews, and have a more professional approach. They also sell consulting services.

Here's another example:

https://youtube.com/@stjernholmreviews?si=Hd4IpSOzNVf5kFC0

This channel's approach to reviewing is much more comprehensive and sophisticated than Jay's Audio Labs'.

Stjernholm lost me at the title of his videos!

 

[hopkins]

Stjernholm lost me at the title of his videos!

Like him or not, the point is that we cannot dismiss all YouTube reviews as "amateurish".

 

[Another Johnson]

Like him or not, the point is that we cannot dismiss all YouTube reviews as "amateurish".

There are always exceptions that make a rule. I’m not personally sure that Sterjnholm is one.

“YouTuber” still carries an amateurish connotation. Dismissing all with the wave of a hand is probably not fair to some. But it is a timesaver.

 

[hopkins]

There are always exceptions that make a rule. I’m not personally sure that Sterjnholm is one.

“YouTuber” still carries an amateurish connotation. Dismissing all with the wave of a hand is probably not fair to some. But it is a timesaver.

I mentioned Sterjnholm, but I am sure there are others. In his latest videos, New Record Day, for example, goes to pretty extensive lengths in testing speakers. So I don't see those as "exceptions", but more as a trend.