Magico introduced the Q series subwoofers

[stereo]

AFAIK..... he uses Focal Grand EM


Edit: Just read his website... "Custom built monitors by Alon Wolf". No Magico mentioned.

well, it sure does not seem that way. If I remember well, one of my friends had Bob Hodas (Focal dealer) demo for him the Utopia at MRM studio, seems that there is an arrangement between Michael and Bob to have the studio being used as a demo room.
And I think that Paul is right now doing all his mastering in his house, he is still using his pair of Magico speakers for that...
Reality is often more complex than it seems...
Even you wrote me a while back that you chose the Wilson Alexia, as "Alon wouldn't give any accommodations on Magico": is Wilson really the best speaker for your mastering studio or the best deal you could get? Unfortunately Magico is very strict on their pricing policy, stricter than most other brands. This may explain why Magico speakers are less common in professional world: just too expensive for most studios.

This is too bad, because as Alexandre wrote, biggest problem in today high-end audio is that 90% of recordings sound like **** because recording engineers and mastering studios are not doing a good job (or using poor equipment)!

 

[JackD201]

I'd put more blame on the clients themselves.

 

[Bruce B]

Even you wrote me a while back that you chose the Wilson Alexia, as "Alon wouldn't give any accommodations on Magico": is Wilson really the best speaker for your mastering studio or the best deal you could get? Unfortunately Magico is very strict on their pricing policy, stricter than most other brands. This may explain why Magico speakers are less common in professional world: just too expensive for most studios.

I never said Alon wouldn't give me special pricing. I never even considered Magico for the studio because I've never liked the sound. I did consider the Focal Stella for the mastering room because I have Focal's in my Post room, but I could not even get a 1% discount. It certainly wasn't because I couldn't afford it. I just didn't like the business practices, because I was already a loyal customer of Focal.

Anyone can afford Magico. Even you said they're only $12k. I know the other 2 mastering rooms that have Wilson's, have the XLF.
The best "deal" I got was on the MM3's, but I could never integrate them in the room that well.
Bob Hodas did the tuning of my room and set up my first set of Wilson's.

 

[stereo]

check this out stereo ive not seen magico using a activemagnet system with 7 kg copper coils per unit , and with the copper price these days .

http://www.grande-utopia-em.com/en/technologies/em.php

http://www.grande-utopia-em.com/en/technologies/ial2.php

Ls speakerenginering is all about performance / cost ,iirc jm labs was working wih berylium diagphrams long before the others

The Focal idea to use coils to create a magnetic field has been around for a long time... It has been neglected (even in professional audio) long time ago for several reasons:
1) usages of wall electrical based power supply create new limitation: noise , modulations and other artifacts not present in any conventional driver
2) The goal of increasing the absolute values of the magnetic field for bass driver doesn't make any sense.The target of all bass drivers is to go low in frequency. How low you can go is determined by law of physics, which says there is a direct correlation between 3 parameters , the size of the box , the sensitivity and the -3db point you want to achieve. If you want to achieve certain - 3db in a known box size your sensitivity is given! Increasing the sensitivity beyond certain point ( which is completely doable using permanent magnet like Focal is doing) will increase the -3db point , and limit the speaker low frequencies.
3) Focal is using basic overhang structure with minimum usage of copper rings, low X max , small voice coils, high inductance. This is really what limits the functionality of their bass drivers as it causes compression and distortion.
Overall, more of a marketing trick than anything else...

Problem is that 99% of audiophiles do not understand anything about physics- that's why OEM websites and forums are full of marketing bullshit.

Some people will tell you for example that Wilson use top of the range drivers. But look at their mid-range:
-They are well designed mid priced drivers ( 50 - 120 cost to oem) from SB acoustics
- Basic overhang structure with min usage of copper rings
- They use paper cones which give the best compromise at low cost
Overall, not a bad driver, but a cheap compromise, something I would expect on my 3k Usher Dancer Mini. not something you expect in a 50k speaker...

Now compare with the Magico mids being used on the Q3, or even with the driver of a 12k speaker like the S1:
1) underhand motor system (much more expensive ) reduces the distortion and IMD in the band pass
2) massive copper sleeve ( much more expensive than shorting rings) again reduces distortion and IMD
3) N48H full ring magnet (no magnet segments usage which costs fraction and clearly don't have the magnetic smooth behavior of full ring magnets)
4) Huge 77 mm voice coil , Inductance is almost none measurable plus give the cones best mechanical support. It also reduces thermal effects
5) full cone , no use of dust cup , the only way to keep the structure integrity (unfortunately complex to assemble)
6) Cone made of the most advanced carbon sandwich with foam layer in a unsymmetrical structure.
I don't know the cost as it is a custom design, but from seeing the way the driver is built, I would estimate it at a minimum of USD400-500, i.e. more than 10 times the cost of a Wilson mid.

Magico philosophy is of "no compromise". As an engineer, I personally buy into their technology choices and I hear the difference, that's why I switched to the brand from EA (and many other brands including Wilson in the past).
Not sure why I am losing my time trying to have a fact based discussion- it doesn't interest most of the people on this forum anyway! And when some people put facts on the table, 80% of these "facts" have no scientific foundations... depressing!

 

[stereo]

I never said Alon wouldn't give me special pricing. I never even considered Magico for the studio because I've never liked the sound. I did consider the Focal Stella for the mastering room because I have Focal's in my Post room, but I could not even get a 1% discount. It certainly wasn't because I couldn't afford it. I just didn't like the business practices, because I was already a loyal customer of Focal.

Anyone can afford Magico. Even you said they're only $12k. I know the other 2 mastering rooms that have Wilson's, have the XLF.
The best "deal" I got was on the MM3's, but I could never integrate them in the room that well.
Bob Hodas did the tuning of my room and set up my first set of Wilson's.

Seems I was mislead by your PM ;-)

Quote Originally Posted by stereo
Thanks for your message Bruce. What did you replace the MM3 with?
The Wilson Alexia's

Alon wouldn't give any accomodations on Magico

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Count me as a Magico fan but I don't subscribe to "more expensive parts = Better sound" theory. Same with the more "expensive = Better" philosophy which permeates High End Audio. Many would say that High End Audio is drowning in this philosophy, IMO they wouldn't be far from the truth.

Magico speakers stand on their own merits as superlative and that, not because of their prices. There are other speakers that I, found very to my liking for example the Revel Salon 2, the TOL that are downright cheap by Hi-End standard, thus rarely mentioned in great speakers discussions but to me one of the most transparent speaker around, provided you drive it with power, lot of it, 500 watts/ch being the minimum or the Magnepan 3.7 a speaker which when properly set-up and with subwoofers (a requirement IMO for any speakers BTW) will have many wondering if they should spend a iota more , my very own cost-performance-conscious audiophile quandary.

Also the notion of mastering engineers as the standard-bearers of transparency is not an argument, at least for audiophiles. It seems that many audiophiles have systems that routinely surpass that of the best mastering studios. That in itself is not an argument either. Transparency to the source has metrics and on some of those metrics Magico has the upper hand over many celebrated speakers. They are not alone, so do speakers like the aforementioned Revel Salon. To my ears, Magico reproduction is so far, special: There is an absence of what I call "noise" for the lack of a better term. I was told that Vivid, YG speakers and Kef Blades share that "quietness", can't say, haven't (yet) heard these. Magico speakers possess a coherence one find usually in one driver speakers (ESL) usually) or mostly coaxial speakers say Kef LS 150. They sound like one.. IOW the whole spectrum has the same pure flavor. Clean, unadulterated. Similar to what some electronics do, for example Spectral or Burmester. Their dynamic is also spectacular when properly driven.

Back to their subwoofers ... I don't think they are worth the price if you ask me. For subwoofing one can do better with the budget. To come back again on the Revel theme. Their Rhythm 2 looks like a very special product and if there is a company who has people who knows about Bass reproduction (and Audio in general) a safe bet would be Harman. Hint: F. Toole, Sean Olve, Tod Welti et al.

Technology doesn't have to be expensive to perform, we should be reminded of that by our smartphones which often pack power superior to CPU in supercomputers of yore: I read somewhere that a tweaked Motorola Droid hit 52 Mflops/sec !!! The Cray 1 in 1979 had 8 mB of memory not a typo Eight Megabytes and was capable of 80 Mflops.. it cost several millions of 1980's dollars ...

 

[andromedaaudio]

I suspect wilson uses seas midrange membranes/units as they have fibreparticles shine through the surface , Sb has a solid black surface .
I use SB acousticsmids myself and yes they are much cheaper then accuton , they have a ferrite magnet instead of the neodymium used in the accuton with a smaller voicecoil.
Expensive parts/complex technologie dont always tell the story at least not in audio , although in the q7 it was a succes i didnt like the q 3 much.

i personally find the paper composite much more natural then the perfect piston ceramic membrane,same
goes for perfect piston diamond [very expensive ] versus soft dome[cheap]



DSC_0077 by andromeda61, on Flickr





DSC_0439 by andromeda61, on Flickr

 

[MasterChief]

I come here to read about the new Magico subwoofer...

What is the point of having a Magico forum if threads about Magicos products always ends in debates like this? Makes me sad, because I think threads like this actually stop owners or people who have actually listened to the speakers to contribute.

Now I must go to the Christianity forum and tell them that they are wrong. And I can't stand people that have a different opinion than me. And I can't stand that someone is wrong on the internet.

 

[microstrip]

This is too bad, because as Alexandre wrote, biggest problem in today high-end audio is that 90% of recordings sound like **** because recording engineers and mastering studios are not doing a good job (or using poor equipment)!

Off topic comment: I feel happy that I listen mainly to classical and jazz - in these categories I would consider that at less 50% of the recordings sound decent. In the particular field of ancient music I would say that more than 50% sounds really excellent.

 

[stereo]

Hi

Count me as a Magico fan but I don't subscribe to "more expensive parts = Better sound" theory. Same with the more "expensive = Better" philosophy which permeates High End Audio. Many would say that High End Audio is drowning in this philosophy, IMO they wouldn't be far from the truth.

Magico speakers stand on their own merits as superlative and that, not because of their prices. There are other speakers that I[/I, found very to my liking for example the Revel Salon 2,

I never said more expensive parts= better sound. What I am saying is that in their drivers design, magico is working on eliminating distortion and IMD, and this costs money. Of course they would also use a cheap off the shelves drivers if it would sound as good... and make much more money out of their speakers. In the list of design elements I mentioned above, the first 4 are not visible for the consumer without dismantling the speaker.... They do it because it makes their speaker sound better, and unfortunately it makes their speaker expensive to build. Same story for cabinet construction. Same story for XO components: of course they could spend $10-20 in crossover components like many very famous brands, but it wouldn't sound as good as spending 30 to 50 times more with Mundorf components.
"Expensive= better" is not true at all in audio, because you see so many designs done by people who have limited scientific knowledge (putting together expensive components is not enough) and you have also a lot of expensive products which are built with cheap parts (e.g. Wilson): there is limited correlation between selling price and cost to build.
In my job, I have access to a design to cost lab which tears down consumer electronic products, so I have a bit more transparency on which brand is or is not a good value for money (meaning, you don't get ripped off by the OEM which builds a great margin on your back). If you estimate the cost of the bill of material (BOM) at a percentage of selling price, it is high for my Q1 and S1, or for the Q3. It is low for a TAD reference, a Focal Utopia or for an Alexia or Maxx3. Which means that TAD, Focal on an Utopia or Wilson makes more money selling a speaker at retail public price than Magico... I know that saying that a 27k monitor like the Q1 is a good value for money is counter-intuitive for most of you!

Any Wilson fan who doesn't trust me, please feel free to donate one Sasha or Alexia speaker for tear down and detailed cost analysis against my Q1. The result would be a lot of fun ;-)

And yes, you are right, the Revel Salon are very good speakers, with a very good value for money (I only have a problem with their ported bass). No wonder that I have two of my friends who switched from Salon to Magico when they decided to upgrade.

 

[stereo]

Off topic comment: I feel happy that I listen mainly to classical and jazz - in these categories I would consider that at less 50% of the recordings sound decent. In the particular field of ancient music I would say that more than 50% sounds really excellent.

same here, I am listening only to Jazz and ancient music. For pop/rock/electronic, I am listening only in my car... recordings are most of the time too poor!

 

[andromedaaudio]

+ 1 , there is still a lot that can be done recordingwise ,in general

 

[microstrip]

Hi

Count me as a Magico fan but I don't subscribe to "more expensive parts = Better sound" theory. Same with the more "expensive = Better" philosophy which permeates High End Audio. Many would say that High End Audio is drowning in this philosophy, IMO they wouldn't be far from the truth.

Magico speakers stand on their own merits as superlative and that, not because of their prices. There are other speakers that I[/I, found very to my liking for example the Revel Salon 2, the TOL that are downright cheap by Hi-End standard, thus rarely mentioned in great speakers discussions but to me one of the most transparent speaker around, provided you drive it with power, lot of it, 500 watts/ch being the minimum or the Magnepan 3.7 a speaker which when properly set-up and with subwoofers (a requirement IMO for any speakers BTW) will have many wondering if they should spend a iota more , my very own cost-performance-conscious audiophile quandary.

Also the notion of mastering engineers as the standard-bearers of transparency is not an argument, at least for audiophiles. It seems that many audiophiles have systems that routinely surpass that of the best mastering studios. That in itself is not an argument either. Transparency to the source has metrics and on some of those metrics Magico has the upper hand over many celebrated speakers. They are not alone, so do speakers like the aforementioned Revel Salon. To my ears, Magico reproduction is so far, special: There is an absence of what I call "noise" for the lack of a better term. I was told that Vivid, YG speakers and Kef Blades share that "quietness", can't say, haven't (yet) heard these. Magico speakers possess a coherence one find usually in one driver speakers (ESL) usually) or mostly coaxial speakers say Kef LS 150. They sound like one.. IOW the whole spectrum has the same pure flavor. Clean, unadulterated. Similar to what some electronics do, for example Spectral or Burmester. Their dynamic is also spectacular when properly driven.

Back to their subwoofers ... I don't think they are worth the price if you ask me. For subwoofing one can do better with the budget. To come back again on the Revel theme. Their Rhythm 2 looks like a very special product and if there is a company who has people who knows about Bass reproduction (and Audio in general) a safe bet would be Harman. Hint: F. Toole, Sean Olve, Tod Welti et al.

(...)

Frantz,

As you masterly and passionately wrote one of the most subjective posts I have ever read in WBF, I would like to enter another speaker that, IMHO, also share this "quietness" - the Sonus Faber Aida's. Curiously in this particular aspect it is superior even to the SoundLabs, when matched with adequate electronics and cables.

BTW, I have the feeling that F. Toole, Sean Olve, Tod Welti et al. would not be happy at all with the measurements of some of the Magico's.

 

[stereo]

I come here to read about the new Magico subwoofer...

What is the point of having a Magico forum if threads about Magicos products always ends in debates like this? Makes me sad, because I think threads like this actually stop owners or people who have actually listened to the speakers to contribute.

Now I must go to the Christianity forum and tell them that they are wrong. And I can't stand people that have a different opinion than me. And I can't stand that someone is wrong on the internet.

Nobody has heard the Magico subwoofer. That's why Magico owners (like me) remain silent on the topic, and the usual Magico haters jump in to criticize... (they will not go to listen to it anyway, so why waiting to express an opinion?)

 

[MasterChief]

Nobody has heard the Magico subwoofer. That's why Magico owners (like me) remain silent on the topic, and the usual Magico haters jump in to criticize... (they will not go to listen to it anyway, so why waiting to express an opinion?)

Yes I know, that is the reason I wrote "speakers" ;-)

stereo: Just that you know, I would love to here all about your new speakers when they arrive.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Any arrival time set already,stereo ?
Q7, Ultimate

 

[stereo]

Any arrival time set already,stereo ?
Q7, Ultimate

Q7 order has been cancelled and replaced with Ultimate.
I expect them around January. Not in a hurry, I still have lot of things to decide on (amps in particular).

 

[LL21]

Question about the Magico Subs from a technical perspective (for a non-techie like me):
- the summation of their incredible weight, aluminium frame, power, etc appears to be largely captured in this stat: capable of producing 20hz at 120db-136db peak at 1% THD. (depending on which Magico sub)

In human terms, if you are cutting off this sub from producing anything above 40hz...in a room 17x35x8 (feet)...how much does the human ear distinguish in distortion levels from, say, a big Velodyne or JL Gotham...playing at 100db...or these Magicos? I suspect the Velodyne at anywhere near this level of 100db probably is reaching a limit of just under 10% distortion.

yes, the math say the Magico might be far less than 1% distortion at 100db...however, while the human ear is quite sensitive to distortion in the mids...I do not fully understand at sub-40hz levels whether we can distinguish 10%.

Just interested in learning...the reason I ask is that having focused more and more and more on isolating the vibration of my sub and really damping it...it has continued to tighten where I am now getting kettle drums WAAAAAY in the back of an orchestra that before was a nice boom, but never a specific kettle drum bass thwack...in fact, its 2 rapid fire bass thwacks with a long reverb/decay afterwards.

hence, my intrigue about this distortion thing. (Yes, I appreciate I could also look at 4 subs all playing 85db and well below 1% distortion levels, but with 4 of them, I would get the power potentially of 1 magico playing at 100db in the back corner...and it would be far more even.) However, for these questions, I am interested in 1 Velodyne/JL Gotham vs 1 Magico. Just to understand if people feel that this level of difference is in fact different.

FWIW, I have heard the Thor is remarkable and game-changing for those who have not heard it expertly set up...and I have to imagine its impact/speed/slam is more akin to the Magico than the Velodyne. JL Gotham perhaps in the middle? Thanks for any views on this.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi


A discussion forum is not an echo-chamber for fan of a given brand or owner of a given product. Not owning a product or a brand doesn't preclude a person from having an opinion on it. Far from it. One learns from diverging , dissenting opinion or facts. I don't own a Magico speaker but came to take them very seriously in my quest for speakers. I, speaking for myself respect what they do and will criticize them if I find substance for such.
This argument of having to own a product in order to discuss about it is old and hint at barely concealed snobbery. The subwoofers from Magico exist and no doubt some will buy them. Will these persons get the best? Not in my view. Thus I,would not buy these subs. Again I, (I think you get the emphasis by now) actually wouldn't buy any subs at these prices as I know for a fact that better performance can be achieved with less lofty expenditures. DIY is one way but several smaller and less dear subwoofers are another alternative. This is not an opinion but something based on Science, a notion on which Magico products more so than many seem to be based on.

@microstrip

I am more and more in need to listen to the Aida. I must say I have (had?) that view of Sonus Faber products as being overly colored. I wasn't too pleased by what I heard from their outpurt say around 2008. They were too sweet making everything sound too nice and sweet.... IMHO. I have heard reports that this has changed dramtically with the Aida and others being serious, tranparent and truthful transducers. Will try to audition carefully and will report my opinion as non-owner.

Back to the Q subs .

 

[asiufy]

Frantz,

Do you think you can have an opinion on something if you have absolutely no experience with the brand, or at least other products within the same price/quality range?

Sure, you can come here and say these are expensive, or even overpriced. And I think they are. Even though I like the brand's products, I'd never consider their subwoofer, on price alone. But to pass judgement on their quality or their worth, without any meaningful experience, is what's being questioned here.

What stereo tried to do is just bring some numbers into the discussion, such as part costs. The speaker darling du jour, Raidho, also uses custom made drivers. But instead of going all out on the enclosure, they use cheap(er), chinese-made wood cabinets. And they retail around the same price as Magico's all-aluminum enclosures. These facts, along with stereo's, help put things into perspective.


alexandre