Magico M9

Alrainbow

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Dec 12, 2013
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The flaw in the ointment for some of these “statement” speakers is the same as ever, the need for very high power and high current solid state amplification! Every experience I’ve had with these so called powerful “statement” amps/systems has been negative, they just sound wrong and the owners know it too. IMO this is a major design flaw and one that undermines the validity of those speakers.

david

So is the problem the SS amps and not the flawed speaker or is it the Flawed speaker and not SS amp ..

Most statement systems i have heard suffer from poor system setup , the same for clippity under powered tube amps on honky horns , a bad combination setup is “the” fly in the ointment...

IMO of course ....
 

ddk

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So is the problem the SS amps and not the flawed speaker or is it the Flawed speaker and not SS amp ..

Most statement systems i have heard suffer from poor system setup , the same for clippity under powered tube amps on honky horns , a bad combination setup is “the” fly in the ointment...

IMO of course ....
Both.
How many such statement systems have you set up Al?

david
 

bonzo75

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So is the problem the SS amps and not the flawed speaker or is it the Flawed speaker and not SS amp ..
.
statement speakers are just statement priced. They are a marketing prop. It is not so much as if SS amps are as good or not as good as SETs. Even if you assume they are not, a simple old Krell on a good speaker like big apogees should sound very good, or like Mike's system does, rather than how these many new statement speakers sound (and how many, buyers or otherwise, have really heard them). The fact that someone might like SETs and horns more or less is a different point. Even in SETs horns, statement speakers like Magico ultimate or Cessaros are not necessarily the best. They are at best statement prices. Almost no one has heard the Magico ultimate outside a poor Munich demo yet there is a respect for it like it could be the ultimate, purely due to statement price
 
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spiritofmusic

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Which of these do you think is Westham?
Don't go there Ked. If you think criticising audiofools' brand loyalty is fair game, you don't wanna start on sports.
 

Ron Resnick

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Let’s dream about implementing a pair of speakers like the M9s.

The asking price of $750,000 is really only the beginning. To justify their stratospheric pricing the speakers obviously have to be capable of creating an accurate reproduction of either the recording venue or of the acoustic created by the recording engineer and of all the instruments that may be recorded. Given that it is capable of reproducing the entire sonic spectrum down to 18Hz and up to 50KHz the room in which it is placed needs to be:
  1. Big enough to support and not be overloaded by the lower frequencies
  2. Have a Resonance Time at the listening positions that match the equalisation of most recordings
  3. Have an ideal distribution of room nodes
  4. Offer the perfect distance relationship between speakers, walls, floor, ceiling and listening positions.
  5. Have a 4 part floor, with solid isolated foundation for both speakers and the equipment, while the balance of the floor is suspended and tuned to provide the correct RT for bass frequencies :p
Next, you need ancilliaries that have the same outstanding capabilities and sufficient power to drive the speakers to significant SPLs while maintaining huge power reserves. Things like cabling need to reflect the same capabilities as the speakers in terms of transparency, accuracy and ability to transmit the full frequency spectrum unaltered. All this equipment needs to be ideally positioned and installed, preferably in an acoustically and vibrationally isolated environment.

Sources of course need to be Worldclass....if we’re talking analog then we also need SoTA materials like 15 or 30 IPS tape and pristine vinyl. If we’re thinking digital, then the entire environment should be ultra low noise, with a single Fibre Optic feed powered by the very best DC sources.

Power to the room needs be properly engineered, with a dedicated supply from the power company, a purpose built consumer unit using RCCBs and MCBs designed for audio, specialised earthing using properly prepared and hydrated earthing pits with impedance monitoring :cool:. . . .

A Geothermal HVAC system ensures a beautifully even temperature year round, without the noise and vibration of typical AC.

. . .

So, anyone have a spare $3-4,000,000 they’d like to invest, plus enough building land?

:rolleyes:

Did you copy and paste this from Audiogon?
 

ddk

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statement speakers are just statement priced. They are a marketing prop. It is not so much as if SS amps are as good or not as good as SETs. Even if you assume they are not, a simple old Krell on a good speaker like big apogees should sound very good, or like Mike's system does, rather than how these many new statement speakers sound (and how many, buyers or otherwise, have really heard them). The fact that someone might like SETs and horns more or less is a different point. Even in SETs horns, statement speakers like Magico ultimate or Cessaros are not necessarily the best. They are at best statement prices. Almost no one has heard the Magico ultimate outside a poor Munich demo yet there is a respect for it like it could be the ultimate, purely due to statement price
It’s not about ss vs tube etc. Ked, there are many great and poor sounding examples of both nor is it about speakers with average demand for power. The speakers in question require an extraordinary amount of power to come to life and average highend musical 100w-200w ss amplifiers can’t drive properly. IME there’s a trade off between higher power and sound quality/purity and at some point it becomes too much of a trade off.

david
 

Ron Resnick

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The fly in the ointment for some of these “statement” speakers is the same as ever, the need for very high power and high current solid state amplification!

. . .

david
But this is not true for a system with self-powered woofers which affords a high sensitivity for the part of the system which you use your own selected amp to drive (e.g., VSA Ultra 11, Gryphon Kodo, EA MM7) or sensitive speakers like Divin Majestic.

(I know you don't like different amps to drive different parts of the speaker system.)
 
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Ron Resnick

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. . . Almost no one has heard the Magico ultimate outside a poor Munich demo yet there is a respect for it like it could be the ultimate, purely due to statement price
I personally have no respect for any expensive speaker which shoots itself in the crossover by first converting the entire signal to digital.
 

ddk

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But this is not true for a system with self-powered woofers which affords a high sensitivity for the part of the system which you use your own selected amp to drive (e.g., VSA Ultra 11, Gryphon Kodo, EA MM7) or sensitive speakers like Divin Majestic.

(I know you don't like different amps to drive different parts of the speaker system.)
I only have direct experience with a few of the speakers you mention and they don’t fall in that category, these have average power needs for the most part.

david
 
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PeterA

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Let's not forget the very formidable and competitive and high-sensitivity Divin Majestic. To justify its price the M9 will have to vanquish that amazing loudspeaker as well! There is some very impressive and stiff competition at the one-column SOTA dynamic driver loudspeaker level.

Oh, and let's not forget about the four column Gryphon Kodo (with self-powered woofer tower and four midrange drivers per side) at less than half the price of the M9.
Ron, it is certainly fun to speculate about relative performance and value about a speaker that only the developers have heard, but why do you presume that Magico needs to justify its pricing relative to other speakers from other brands? It seems this is what happens when a company announces a new flagship product.

On the other hand, when ddk announced his new AS2000, did people on forums speculate about the value of his turntable relative to other flagship turntables, especially before anyone had had a chance to hear it yet? I think people contacted David and either visited him to hear his turntable to assess its quality or they bought it based on David's reputation and the table's potential or promised performance. Sometimes that is all that is needed to make the purchase of such products.

It seems with this new speaker, there will be much written before anyone hears a pair, and then there will be many show reports from people who will never own such a speaker. I guess this is the nature of the thing.
 

KeithR

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9 pages of criticism by amateurs who don't design speakers on how something Magico spent 20 years to launch is so WBF but...i'm still waiting on the trickle down tech from the WAMM for the poors. these are vanity projects to make $ off the whales, that's all.

i've become so disenchanted with this hobby as the focus just keeps on going to more egregiously expensive gear every year. $750k speakers, $250k amps, $20k cables (!), etc. when I started in the 90s, this wasn't the direction. it all seems like just a race to sell 6 and now 7-figure systems. i'm actually now considering a major change/direction and giving up on the "high end."
 

bonzo75

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9 pages of criticism by amateurs who don't design speakers on how something Magico spent 20 years to launch is so WBF but...
The criticism is not about the speaker but about the fact that people think a highly priced speaker that almost no one has heard can be good sonically because of the price.
 

spiritofmusic

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The criticism is not about the speaker but about the fact that people think a highly priced speaker that almost no one has heard can be good sonically because of the price.
Ked, if that was really true, this place would be called Audio Exotics Forum.
 

Mike Lavigne

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i think here we view statement products as a positive occurrence and not a threat to life as we know it (or an upset of the equilibrium), and 'mostly' we don't confuse market positioning with value.

products get introduced for multitudes of reasons. and with the top companies typically achieve those aims.
 

cannata

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...i'm still waiting on the trickle down tech from the WAMM for the poors. these are vanity projects to make $ off the whales, that's all.
In this case, you don’t have to wait, it seems like the A5 already has some trickle-down/up technologies of the M9. But no one here seems to care (Magico A5 – hardly two pages of acknowledgment).
 
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Mike Lavigne

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In this case, you don’t have to wait, it seems like the A5 already has some trickle-down/up technologies of the M9. But no one here seems to care (Magico A5 – hardly two pages of acknowledgment).
people post about what they have an interest in, or what is exciting to discuss. i'm sure that is no surprise.

it's up to Magico nation or A5 owners to make it happen. and not every product gets equal action on every forum. it's a mistake to necessarily equate forum action and product performance or customer satisfaction. it's like currents in the ocean.....lots of factors. WBF might have an up-market bend, other forums more mid or lower mid market focus. some even a higher end focus than WBF. no right or wrong with it.

companies spend millions of dollars doing digital social media market planning and execution. nothing just happens.

shout it out.
 

Blackmorec

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:rolleyes:

Did you copy and paste this from Audiogon?
Hi Ron,
No, I rarely go to Audiogon and then mostly to look at what high end gear is selling for in the US. I do use it to sell gear from time to time
I wonder why you ask....I wrote the piece after I looked at the pictures of the M9 on WBF and dreamed about what a decent installation would entail to get the best out of these monsters. I use S1MkIIs and know how damned good they sound when sufficient effort is put into their installation environment. The M9s must be astoundingly good, but likely require a corresponding level of care and investment into their installation to achieve their peak performance.

I contribute to forums mainly for the enjoyment of writing about hi-fi and corresponding with like-minded individuals, so plagiarism would entirely defeat my purpose of being here. If I did cut and paste anything, I would use “ “ and credit the author or more likely just use a link.
 

Ron Resnick

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Ron, it is certainly fun to speculate about relative performance and value about a speaker that only the developers have heard, but why do you presume that Magico needs to justify its pricing relative to other speakers from other brands? . . .
I definitely think it is fun to speculate about relative performance and value about a new speaker, especially one which is announced at, I think, a record-breaking price in the history of speakers of its dynamic driver topology. I think it's fun to think "gee, at that price level, speakers A, B and C come into competitive play. I wonder how different consumers and reviewers and I myself will find them to compare to each other."

I also think it is fun to try to understand the design, and to speculate about design differences among the competing speakers at that rarified price level.

I think in the car context these musings and speculations would be completely predictable and go unquestioned and uncriticized. When Lamborghini announces a new top model, isn't it fun for sports car aficionados to think about how it compares to the top Ferrari model and to the newest McLaren? Isn't it fun to think about how the latest technology active aero features on the Lamborghini might compare to what McLaren deployed on its top-of-the-line supercar? Sports car people would find it fun to speculate how the new super-duper dual-clutch transmission of this newly announced car compares to the super-duper multi-clutch transmission of the current Mercedes AMG One "hypercar."

Why is there something wrong, inappropriate or untoward about the same kinds of fun speculations and theoretical comparisons when conducted in the audio realm?
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 12, 2013
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9 pages of criticism by amateurs who don't design speakers on how something Magico spent 20 years to launch is so WBF but...i'm still waiting on the trickle down tech from the WAMM for the poors. these are vanity projects to make $ off the whales, that's all.

i've become so disenchanted with this hobby as the focus just keeps on going to more egregiously expensive gear every year. $750k speakers, $250k amps, $20k cables (!), etc. when I started in the 90s, this wasn't the direction. it all seems like just a race to sell 6 and now 7-figure systems. i'm actually now considering a major change/direction and giving up on the "high end."

Strange post mate , what does it matter if you cant afford the high cost of the wares being offered how does this affect your enjoyment or love of hifi and music , or are you trying to keep up and puff puff just out of breath ..

The M9 could cost 2Billion who cares ....?
 

Alrainbow

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Dec 12, 2013
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Both.
How many such statement systems have you set up Al?

david
Just the one gigantic one i have , but have heard many bad setups from myself :) and others, so i get to know the work involved and required by those who make it happen...
 
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