Magico M9

[Duke LeJeune]

I don’t understand how the tweeter can be surrounded by such a massive baffle area equivalent to multiples of wavelengths of the higher frequencies and and not suffer horrendous diffraction - no, the gentle curve will not do the job!

My understanding is that a large radius round-over is desirable because it is effective down to a lower frequency than a small radius round-over.

The beneficial effects of a round-over just start to appear when the round-over radius is about 1/8 wavelength. A 1/4 wavelength radius is probably the minimum for good edge diffraction control, and with a 1/2 wavelength radius we can expect very good edge diffraction control.

On the Magico M9 I guesstimate the radius to be about 4 inches on either side of the mid/tweet section, which corresponds to 1/2 wavelength at about 1700 Hz and 1/4 wavelength at about 850 Hz. So in the horizontal plane, I think we can expect very good edge diffraction control down to 1700 Hz and good edge diffraction control down to 850 Hz. Imo this is excellent in comparison with most speakers.

The reason diffraction is bad is, it is a delayed and distorted version of the direct sound. The problem is that because it is delayed relative to the direct sound, diffraction is not effectively masked by the direct sound. And it happens to be a type of distortion which becomes increasingly audible and objectionable as the overall SPL goes up. Cabinet edge diffraction can also degrade imaging precision, and baffle width plays a role.

I'm not certain but I think the ear's sensitivity to diffraction is strongest from about 1.5 kHz to about 8 kHz, peaking in the 4 kHz ballpark. And in general the wider a driver's dispersion in this region, the greater its interaction with the cabinet edges.

At least that's my understanding.

 

[QuadDiffuser]

Hi Duke, agree with you with respect to the midrange driver’s operating range, but I was referring to the TWEETER’s range (~3.5kHz and above) whose quarter wavelength is below 1”

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Hi Duke, agree with you with respect to the midrange driver’s operating range, but I was referring to the TWEETER’s range (~3.5kHz and above) whose quarter wavelength is below 1”

The round-over does not lose effectiveness when its radius is large relative relative to the wavelengths; rather, it loses effectiveness when its radius is too small relative to the wavelengths, because that constitutes an abrupt discontinuity.

So a ballpark 4" radius roundover is far more than adequate for the wavelengths generated by the tweeter. In other words, there is no baffle discontinuity in the horizontal plane abrupt enough to diffract the tweeter's output.

To put it another way, that ballpark 4" radius round-over is effective down to about 850 Hz, and there is no upper frequency limit on its effectiveness.

Unless I am mistaken.

 

[Blackmorec]

Let’s dream about implementing a pair of speakers like the M9s.

The asking price of $750,000 is really only the beginning. To justify their stratospheric pricing the speakers obviously have to be capable of creating an accurate reproduction of either the recording venue or of the acoustic created by the recording engineer and of all the instruments that may be recorded. Given that it is capable of reproducing the entire sonic spectrum down to 18Hz and up to 50KHz the room in which it is placed needs to be:

1. Big enough to support and not be overloaded by the lower frequencies
2. Have a Resonance Time at the listening positions that match the equalisation of most recordings
3. Have an ideal distribution of room nodes
4. Offer the perfect distance relationship between speakers, walls, floor, ceiling and listening positions.
5. Have a 4 part floor, with solid isolated foundation for both speakers and the equipment, while the balance of the floor is suspended and tuned to provide the correct RT for bass frequencies

Next, you need ancilliaries that have the same outstanding capabilities and sufficient power to drive the speakers to significant SPLs while maintaining huge power reserves. Things like cabling need to reflect the same capabilities as the speakers in terms of transparency, accuracy and ability to transmit the full frequency spectrum unaltered. All this equipment needs to be ideally positioned and installed, preferably in an acoustically and vibrationally isolated environment.

Sources of course need to be Worldclass....if we’re talking analog then we also need SoTA materials like 15 or 30 IPS tape and pristine vinyl. If we’re thinking digital, then the entire environment should be ultra low noise, with a single Fibre Optic feed powered by the very best DC sources.

Power to the room needs be properly engineered, with a dedicated supply from the power company, a purpose built consumer unit using RCCBs and MCBs designed for audio, specialised earthing using properly prepared and hydrated earthing pits with impedance monitoring . Cabling would be ultra high purity copper feeding cryogenically treated sockets. Cables would be carefully installed to avoid fracturing the crystal structure

A Geothermal HVAC system ensures a beautifully even temperature year round, without the noise and vibration of typical AC.

Seating arrangements would ensure the correct height, ideal posture and ear level freedom

So, anyone have a spare $3-4,000,000 they’d like to invest, plus enough building land?

 

[Lagonda]

Let’s dream about implementing a pair of speakers like the M9s.

The asking price of $750,000 is really only the beginning. To justify their stratospheric pricing the speakers obviously have to be capable of creating an accurate reproduction of either the recording venue or of the acoustic created by the recording engineer and of all the instruments that may be recorded. Given that it is capable of reproducing the entire sonic spectrum down to 18Hz and up to 50KHz the room in which it is placed needs to be:

1. Big enough to support and not be overloaded by the lower frequencies
2. Have a Resonance Time at the listening positions that match the equalisation of most recordings
3. Have an ideal distribution of room nodes
4. Offer the perfect distance relationship between speakers, walls, floor, ceiling and listening positions.
5. Have a 4 part floor, with solid isolated foundation for both speakers and the equipment, while the balance of the floor is suspended and tuned to provide the correct RT for bass frequencies

Next, you need ancilliaries that have the same outstanding capabilities and sufficient power to drive the speakers to significant SPLs while maintaining huge power reserves. Things like cabling need to reflect the same capabilities as the speakers in terms of transparency, accuracy and ability to transmit the full frequency spectrum unaltered. All this equipment needs to be ideally positioned and installed, preferably in an acoustically and vibrationally isolated environment.

Sources of course need to be Worldclass....if we’re talking analog then we also need SoTA materials like 15 or 30 IPS tape and pristine vinyl. If we’re thinking digital, then the entire environment should be ultra low noise, with a single Fibre Optic feed powered by the very best DC sources.

Power to the room needs be properly engineered, with a dedicated supply from the power company, a purpose built consumer unit using RCCBs and MCBs designed for audio, specialised earthing using properly prepared and hydrated earthing pits with impedance monitoring . Cabling would be ultra high purity copper feeding cryogenically treated sockets. Cables would be carefully installed to avoid fracturing the crystal structure

A Geothermal HVAC system ensures a beautifully even temperature year round, without the noise and vibration of typical AC.

Seating arrangements would ensure the correct height, ideal posture and ear level freedom

So, anyone have a spare $3-4,000,000 they’d like to invest, plus enough building land?

In other words only Mike can actually get the full effect of these speakers ?

 

[shakti]

Oh, and let's not forget about the four column Gryphon Kodo (with self-powered woofer tower and four midrange drivers per side) at less than half the price of the M9.

My lessons learned out of the Magic M 9 Project is, that the most of the competitors, like Tidal Assoluta, Gryphon Kodo, Avalon Tesseract, Gaebel Divin, VonSchweickert VR11 and so on do have a lot of headroom for incremental pricing with their next revision of their flagship models.

Comparing the current flagship model pricing with the flagship pricing over the last 20 years (yes, I know the effect of annual inflation), the price level already has taken some jumps in the last 3 to 5 years. Models like Gryphon Poseidon, Avalon Osiris, Infinity IRS, Wilson Audio Grandslam were in the +/- 100k market. Comparing for example Gryphon Poseidon and Kodo does underline, that the level of technical "innovation" falls back behind the level of investment into marketing for brand value to make the proper shift from Gryphon as "performance" driven High End brand into Gryphon becoming part of the High End "luxury" culture as the new growing market .

This makes it for me very difficult to judge a new product in the segment of Luxury High End with my still old fashioned performance driven parameters for High End Music Listening.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Milan, Mike will need another pair of Dart 468s as well. And then the active Tanas. Oh, and some more interconnects. Damn, another Tripoint. Um, that's a rounding error up to $1m.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My lessons learned out of the Magic M 9 Project is, that the most of the competitors, like Tidal Assoluta, Gryphon Kodo, Avalon Tesseract, Gaebel Divin, VonSchweickert VR11 and so on do have a lot of headroom for incremental pricing with their next revision of their flagship models.

Comparing the current flagship model pricing with the flagship pricing over the last 20 years (yes, I know the effect of annual inflation), the price level already has taken some jumps in the last 3 to 5 years. Models like Gryphon Poseidon, Avalon Osiris, Infinity IRS, Wilson Audio Grandslam were in the +/- 100k market. Comparing for example Gryphon Poseidon and Kodo does underline, that the level of technical "innovation" falls back behind the level of investment into marketing for brand value to make the proper shift from Gryphon as "performance" driven High End brand into Gryphon becoming part of the High End "luxury" culture as the new growing market .

This makes it for me very difficult to judge a new product in the segment of Luxury High End with my still old fashioned performance driven parameters for High End Music Listening.

Shakti, trying to judge SQ from the exponential rise in ultra high end pricing is worse than pointless.

I always shudder when I read about hyperinflation in failing states like Zimbabwe. But it exists in the First World too.

Btw, I'm assuming these will be used with the big Magico subs too?

 

[spiritofmusic]

My lessons learned out of the Magic M 9 Project is, that the most of the competitors, like Tidal Assoluta, Gryphon Kodo, Avalon Tesseract, Gaebel Divin, VonSchweickert VR11 and so on do have a lot of headroom for incremental pricing with their next revision of their flagship models.

Comparing the current flagship model pricing with the flagship pricing over the last 20 years (yes, I know the effect of annual inflation), the price level already has taken some jumps in the last 3 to 5 years. Models like Gryphon Poseidon, Avalon Osiris, Infinity IRS, Wilson Audio Grandslam were in the +/- 100k market. Comparing for example Gryphon Poseidon and Kodo does underline, that the level of technical "innovation" falls back behind the level of investment into marketing for brand value to make the proper shift from Gryphon as "performance" driven High End brand into Gryphon becoming part of the High End "luxury" culture as the new growing market .

This makes it for me very difficult to judge a new product in the segment of Luxury High End with my still old fashioned performance driven parameters for High End Music Listening.

Alsyvox are a fascinating comparison.
Not 6-7 years ago they were Leonardo, retailing their planars at well below €40k, and by all accounts struggling despite the reports at the time being stellar. They disappeared from view to reappear, prices more than doubled...and selling like hot cakes.

 

[QuadDiffuser]

The round-over does not lose effectiveness when its radius is large relative relative to the wavelengths; rather, it loses effectiveness when its radius is too small relative to the wavelengths, because that constitutes an abrupt discontinuity.

So a ballpark 4" radius roundover is far more than adequate for the wavelengths generated by the tweeter. In other words, there is no baffle discontinuity in the horizontal plane abrupt enough to diffract the tweeter's output.

To put it another way, that ballpark 4" radius round-over is effective down to about 850 Hz, and there is no upper frequency limit on its effectiveness.

Unless I am mistaken.

It seems that leaving a large flat baffle around the tweeter results in both constructive and destructive interference, as evidenced by non-linear responses off axis. It would be interesting to see data for round-over‘d baffles, ala Magico and Focal. In the meantime, two potential solutions to produce a smoother, more predictable off-axis response, which I’m sure is a desirable design goal:

1) Chamfering the baffle edges:

2) Using felt:
https://audioxpress.com/article/Diffraction-Doesn-t-Have-to-Be-a-Problem

 

[bonzo75]

My lessons learned out of the Magic M 9 Project is, that the most of the competitors, like Tidal Assoluta, Gryphon Kodo, Avalon Tesseract, Gaebel Divin, VonSchweickert VR11 and so on do have a lot of headroom for incremental pricing with their next revision of their flagship models.

Comparing the current flagship model pricing with the flagship pricing over the last 20 years (yes, I know the effect of annual inflation), the price level already has taken some jumps in the last 3 to 5 years. Models like Gryphon Poseidon, Avalon Osiris, Infinity IRS, Wilson Audio Grandslam were in the +/- 100k market. Comparing for example Gryphon Poseidon and Kodo does underline, that the level of technical "innovation" falls back behind the level of investment into marketing for brand value to make the proper shift from Gryphon as "performance" driven High End brand into Gryphon becoming part of the High End "luxury" culture as the new growing market .

This makes it for me very difficult to judge a new product in the segment of Luxury High End with my still old fashioned performance driven parameters for High End Music Listening.

If components are very expensive, people don't get to evaluate them as easily as cheaper ones. Those who get a chance, have to be grateful for having been given the chance, and have to write good stuff about it even if they don't buy it. So it will either get bought blindly, or it will have very few, but positive, high level reviews. Sufficient for the one odd occasional blind purchase.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, you mean they won't read you for balance, and think twice about buying them?

 

[shakti]

If components are very expensive, people don't get to evaluate them as easily as cheaper ones. Those who get a chance, have to be grateful for having been given the chance, and have to write good stuff about it even if they don't buy it. So it will either get bought blindly, or it will have very few, but positive, high level reviews. Sufficient for the one odd occasional blind purchase.

The last "no limit" products (TechDAS AF0, Dan d Agostino Relentless, Wilson Audio Chronosonic, and others) were part of a global launch event scheme, selected potential customers and important influencers were invited, the most important local influencers were hired to lead the presentation. This process was well established for products as Infinity IRS, Avalon Osiris and others.

Just build a hand full of products, do the launch campaign,
collect orders after and you can plan the first (and may be last) production run.

We will see, what Magico is planning. Such a launch campaign is important, if your primary goal is building up the brand DNA for customers in the luxury market. Kharma for example is very good in showing up their products during luxury related events.

 

[bonzo75]

The last "no limit" products (TechDAS AF0, Dan d Agostino Relentless, Wilson Audio Chronosonic, and others) were part of a global launch event scheme, selected potential customers and important influencers were invited, the most important local influencers were hired to lead the presentation. This process was well established for products as Infinity IRS, Avalon Osiris and others.

Just build a hand full of products, do the launch campaign,
collect orders after and you can plan the first (and may be last) production run.

Exactly. After the launch event, there were very cursory high level reports, but the orders were in. Low volume, high margin. Since the deposit is taken, low risk. Till date we haven't seen a WAMM owner's post here like a Sasha owner's. DDK, Doshi, Tang's tonearm guy have visited the owner and those lucky enough to know them can get their perception of the WAMM, vox Olympian, and the Cessaro gamma, plus others. But for others, the only perception will be Munich like events and price

 

[Tango]

Exactly. After the launch event, there were very cursory high level reports, but the orders were in. Low volume, high margin. Since the deposit is taken, low risk. Till date we haven't seen a WAMM owner's post here like a Sasha owner's. DDK, Doshi, Tang's tonearm guy have visited the owner and those lucky enough to know them can get their perception of the WAMM, vox Olympian, and the Cessaro gamma, plus others. But for others, the only perception will be Munich like events and price

Ked. No need to listen. People with $10 million in a volatile market like what has been for the past month can afford these speakers without a sweat. There are so many of these people in the world. Sound is always subjective. You can never make the best sounding speakers by everyone's ears. Therefore sound is no longer relevant. But you can always attract the riches with some thing really rare and exclusive. Price makes product exclusive.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So Tang, how many more bags of fertiliser do you need to sell to be able to consider these?
I may have to up my patient list a bit myself.

 

[microstrip]

The last "no limit" products (TechDAS AF0, Dan d Agostino Relentless, Wilson Audio Chronosonic, and others) were part of a global launch event scheme, selected potential customers and important influencers were invited, the most important local influencers were hired to lead the presentation. This process was well established for products as Infinity IRS, Avalon Osiris and others.

Just build a hand full of products, do the launch campaign,
collect orders after and you can plan the first (and may be last) production run.

We will see, what Magico is planning. Such a launch campaign is important, if your primary goal is building up the brand DNA for customers in the luxury market. Kharma for example is very good in showing up their products during luxury related events.

Many manufacturers use the ultra-high performance and very expensive items as a promotional item for the whole brand and in fact they are almost non-existent, prospective buyers have little opportunity to listen to them. However this was not the case of the Wilson Audio WAMM - they carried demos and they have a dealer supported organized system to invite people with real interest in buying them to listen to them in selected places, including the David Wilson room. As most XLF owners I got a proposal from my dealer, but as I do not consider such expense speaker I declined it. Fortunately the European presentation of the WAMM was carried at my dealer and I could listen to them. As far as I know the XVX is being demoed in many Wilson dealers around the world.

I think that forum members, being knowledgeable and feeling self sufficient in this hobby, very often minimize and ignore the importance and the role of a solid distribution and dealer network and their work in the sales of such high price products.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I guess many ultra devotees of brands will trade up, sound unheard many times.
Even at/especially at, these price levels.
If you're a Magico fanboy, and somehow picked up that winning lottery ticket off the sidewalk, are you gonna buy these unreservedly or at least consider the flagships from Wilson, YG, Tidal, Rockport?
Or is there brand loyalty here akin to sports teams?

 

[ddk]

The fly in the ointment for some of these “statement” speakers is the same as ever, the need for very high power and high current solid state amplification! Every experience I’ve had with these so called powerful “statement” amps/systems has been negative, they just sound wrong and the owners know it too. IMO this is a major design flaw and one that undermines the validity of those speakers.

david

 

[bonzo75]

Or is there brand loyalty here akin to sports teams?

Which of these do you think is Westham?