MM7's are here

[Mike Lavigne]

You might be right that the MM7 bass towers wiith the main towers will play circles around an Arrakis / Thor's Hammer solution but since I have not auditioned any of these systems I can only base my current assumptions on what I have experienced.

i want to be clear that while i do think that the performance of the MM7's are very very top notch, and that their completely integrated approach to the twin tower design does give it advantages over other separate tower (or tower/subwoofer) approachs, that i don't claim that they 'run circles' around a potential Arrakis/Thor's Hammer combo. i realize your intent is not to make this into more than i said. but unless i heard that 'mythical' combo i would have no specific opinion about it other than no desire to own it above what i have.

i encourage people to push the envelope in their own fashion.

 

[Roysen]

i want to be clear that while i do think that the performance of the MM7's are very very top notch, and that their completely integrated approach to the twin tower design does give it advantages over other separate tower approachs, that i don't claim that they 'run circles' around a potential Arrakis/Thor's Hammer combo. i realize your intent is not to make this into more than i said. but unless i heard that 'mythical' combo i would have no specific opinion about it other than no desire to own it above what i have.

i encourage people to push the envelope in their own fashion.

Certainly,

The phrasing was not very good.

I fully understand this. My comment was supposed to clarify that since I haven't heard either combination I am open to real world situation where the MM7 could in fact "play circles around" the Arrakis 2/Thor's Hammer combination even though the latter is what I up until now has considered as what I think would suit me best.

 

[Roysen]

I have to agree with Mike that the Class D amplifiers for the woofers should not be any concern what so ever.

It could very well be the case. My experience with Class D amplifiers have not been very good. That does not mean however that the bass amplifier in the Evolution Acousitcs MM7 can't do its job as a bass amplifier in outstanding fashion. My comment should not have mentioned Class D at all. In fact my thoughts really ran towards what an external amplifier like for instance my Krell MRA could do with those towers compared to the ones used in the original design.

 

[A.wayne]

Nothing to do with MM7 and others , but , when did class-d started doing bass better than the rest ......


Interesting ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Nothing to do with MM7 and others , but , when did class-d started doing bass better than the rest ......


Interesting ...

you can read Amir's post here....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ich-egg-thread&p=150830&viewfull=1#post150830

which speaks to a common expereince with class D amps. great bass performance.

i'm no fan of class D amps for ultimate performance for full range. but every top level active subwoofer uses class D amplifiers for very good reasons. they have small form factor, they are very linear at low frequencies, they are very efficient so they don't stress power grids at high SPL's with deep bass, they don't run hot so last indefinitely, and they are very neutral so work ideally to mimic the character of the main amp in a setup like the MM7's use; where the deep bass signal is derived from the main amp input to the speaker. it becomes very coherent and of one piece. if you switch to a warmer main amp the bass performance will take on that character....and so on. it allows flexibility to synergize to taste while maintaining high dynamic performance.

with the NHB-458 monoblocks and MM7's (with 4 class D amps on the bass towers) the synergy is uncanny and natural. astonishingly coherent and seamless. limitless in dynamics.

 

[Weinhart Design]

last evening i was speaking to a friend who has a similar system as mine (same amps-458's, preamp, tt, tonearm, and digital).

he decided to order the Evolution Acoustics MM7's and i'm very happy for him. what is interesting is that you will see his Magico Q7's up for sale on Audiogon in the next week or so.

This is David Weinhart of Weinhart Design, and I am the original Magico dealer who sold the Q-7's speakers to the customer. I would agree with Robert Harley that the Q7 is a landmark design and without peer. The customer who bought the Q7 has known Jonathan Tinn, the owner of Evolution Acoustics, for a long time, and I believe there is a back story to this transaction. However, out of respect to all parties, it is in no one’s best interests to discuss this. I would, however, take everything you read here, and in other forums, with a grain of salt.

 

[Bruce B]

However, out of respect to all parties, it is in no one’s best interests to discuss this. .

Hello Dave... nice for you to join.

So why did you bring this up now? Your first post and I'm probably going to bet it's one of your last, you join just to say something like this. Comments like this put me off to manufacturers.
And just think, I'm in the market for high-end speakers.

 

[GaryProtein]

+1

If you're going to keep quiet about something, KEEP QUIET.

 

[Gregadd]

The truth is never as bad as innuendo and speculation.

 

[amirm]

This is David Weinhart of Weinhart Design, and I am the original Magico dealer who sold the Q-7's speakers to the customer. I would agree with Robert Harley that the Q7 is a landmark design and without peer. The customer who bought the Q7 has known Jonathan Tinn, the owner of Evolution Acoustics, for a long time, and I believe there is a back story to this transaction. However, out of respect to all parties, it is in no one’s best interests to discuss this. I would, however, take everything you read here, and in other forums, with a grain of salt.

Welcome to the forum David. Please put your affiliation in your signature. You can see mine as an example.

As to the point you are making, I hope everyone knows not to trust what they read on the Internet in general. My posts of course being the exception.

Guys, let's be welcoming to new members....

 

[Gregadd]

Welcome David, We have a dedicated forum under the Manufacures Section I am a big Magico fan. You might expand on the virtues of the Q7 there. A few comments form Alon Wolf would not hurt.

 

[treitz3]

Thank you, Amir and welcome to the WBF Mr. Weinhart. Hopefully this will not be the last we hear of you.

Tom

 

[NorthStar]

-- Hi David, and welcome to our little 'big' world! :b ...We aim for the best of the best. :b

Bob

* People like you are important for us to learn more from.

 

[A.wayne]

The truth is never as bad as innuendo and speculation.

Lol ...

 

[Roysen]

you can read Amir's post here....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ich-egg-thread&p=150830&viewfull=1#post150830

which speaks to a common expereince with class D amps. great bass performance.

i'm no fan of class D amps for ultimate performance for full range. but every top level active subwoofer uses class D amplifiers for very good reasons. they have small form factor, they are very linear at low frequencies, they are very efficient so they don't stress power grids at high SPL's with deep bass, they don't run hot so last indefinitely, and they are very neutral so work ideally to mimic the character of the main amp in a setup like the MM7's use; where the deep bass signal is derived from the main amp input to the speaker. it becomes very coherent and of one piece. if you switch to a warmer main amp the bass performance will take on that character....and so on. it allows flexibility to synergize to taste while maintaining high dynamic performance.

with the NHB-458 monoblocks and MM7's (with 4 class D amps on the bass towers) the synergy is uncanny and natural. astonishingly coherent and seamless. limitless in dynamics.

Well, in general (I would like to make point out that I am meaning in a genral context now and not with the MM7) what you are writing about Class D amplifiers are correct but it is not the full story. There are other factors leading to the use of Class D in active and semi-active speakers and subwoofers. It is a question of price. Class D designs are generally less expensive than Class A or Class A/B. So using Class D amplifiers inside a speaker or a subwoofer reduses cost to the end user compared to designing a solution with an internal Class A or Class A/B amplifier or designing a passive solution where the end user must buy an amplifier themselves. An internal Class D amplifier will also make all speakers sound equal without any variance in the bass amplifier which will increase the lowest possible sound quality and by that less complatins from the customers and finally by installing a Class D amplifier the manufacturer can increase the cost of their product compared to a passive design and still market the fact that they have reduced the overall cost to the end user who will not need to buy a more expensive external Class A or Class A/B amplifier.

In general there are also some compromises in sound quality compared to Class A or Class A/B. First of all will a Class D amplifier in general generate more noise on the power grid where you have connected the other components in your system. Secondly they have in general a smaller power supply than a high quality Class A or Class A/B amplifier. This means that you can play equally loud with the same power output but without the same power supply you will not be able to control bigger bass drivers as easily. That means loss in resolution, dynamic contrasts, blurring of transients and clipping.

With an internal Class D amplifier you will never know if you are making a compromise by using it compared to a free choise of Class A or Class A/B amplifier simply because you can not compare. In general I am not willing to take such a chance. I want to make sure I am not making a compromise and by going for a passive design with an amplifier I know, the quality will not be an unknown factor and I can make sure I do not make a compromise.

 

[Gregadd]

And remember bass starts at the pickup/source not the amp

 

[A.wayne]

I have done the comparisions in the past , IMO, Class-D does not do Bass better than conventional class-A or A/B amplifiers , actually it was not close . When designing powered subs they do have a huge advantage in packaging and cost that gives them a huge advantage ..

Class-d fails at producing frequency extremes , bass and treble dont work for me thru them , I still favor the sound from big PSU's and output stage , such an amp would not be feasible for packaging ..

Hence Class-d ...

 

[NorthStar]

-- And Class D amps are not as refined and as capable of driving lower impedances speakers (drivers) as Class A or Class AB amps. ...So the choice of the driver in the sub is limited.

I'm all for Class AB amps in subwoofers, with a good power supply and capacitance and a good main power transformer (toroidal).

But that's me.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

tonight my friend Andrew came over and laser aligned both towers of my MM7's. earlier he had done a quick alignment of the main towers only. i had simply set the bass towers outside the main towers when the bass towers arrived since i did not want to lose the alignment we had done on the main towers. however this left the bass towers behind the main towers by an inch or so.....since both towers are designed to be aligned on the same radius if you want complete integration at wave launch.

we started off establishing a center line and set up a line on paper attached to a tripod behind my sitting position along with a spot on the carpet below for measuring distance. next we measured the distance between the listening spot and the right bass tower and the center line and bass tower.....and then aligned that bass tower straight at the listening spot....and measured again. next we moved the right main tower to the same distance from the listening spot, and aligned it, then measured again. then we measured from the main tower to the center line. right side mostly done.

next we moved the left bass tower into the same distance both from the listening spot and the center line then aligned it. next we moved the left main tower the same distance from the listening spot and center line and aligned it.

all four towers were now equal distance from the listening spot and aligned to it; and each bass tower was the exact same distance from the center line and so were both main towers.

lastly we first leveled the right main tower with a laser tool, then placed tape on each wall with a mark; then leveled and adjusted the height of the left main tower so the laser rotation hit all the same marks exactly.

now both main towers were level and the exact same height. we did not mess with leveling the bass towers.

first a note that the speakers are still set to flat and no effort has been made for any sort of adjsutments. Kevin Malmgren is planning on coming late January to early March sometime to do final tweaking. by that time i should have approx 1000 hours on the speakers and amps.

results from laser alignment and laser leveling;

--more cohesive sound. not only bass but everything all up a down the frequency range. tighter bass, more connected to images in a real life way. more flow to the music, more energy and life. overall more focus and separation in the soundstage. vocals take on a greater front to back sense of a real person. each instrument seems more complete.

mostly not huge differences, but in some places quite profound. the presentation is a slight bit less 'big' and overall more real. more ease and less sense of being processed. amazing connection to the musical event.

i wonder with other 2 tower set-ups or separate subwoofer set-ups how much this issue has an effect. especially where the bass towers are behind the main towers. how can it not be significant?

 

[NorthStar]

-- It's fun and healthy experimenting with big loudspeakers and subwoofers;
keeps you fit, in shape, and on the edge. :b