good point.humidity and temperature do play a big part to what you hear from your speakers.
Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers
- Thread starter thomask
- Start date
I think this discussion is assuming only 2 categories:
1. Those that have rolloff and/or lack detail
2. Those that don't
Some are assuming that being in 1 makes it less real, and being in 2 makes it more real.
Actually, there are 4 categories:
1. Those that sound real and have rolloff and/or less detail
2. Those that sound real and have no such rolloff, and all relevant details
3. Those that sound fake and have rolloff and/or less detail
4. Those that sound fake and have no such rolloff, and seem detailed
I place the good Tannoys in 1. Magico, Wilson and the likes in 4. The good horns, stats, planars in 2, the bad horns like duos in 4.
Yes there will be layers within each category
1. Those that have rolloff and/or lack detail
2. Those that don't
Some are assuming that being in 1 makes it less real, and being in 2 makes it more real.
Actually, there are 4 categories:
1. Those that sound real and have rolloff and/or less detail
2. Those that sound real and have no such rolloff, and all relevant details
3. Those that sound fake and have rolloff and/or less detail
4. Those that sound fake and have no such rolloff, and seem detailed
I place the good Tannoys in 1. Magico, Wilson and the likes in 4. The good horns, stats, planars in 2, the bad horns like duos in 4.
Yes there will be layers within each category
There is nothing to say for me on that. Wilson's problem was never there old and new tweeter, only Wiilson fans make a big deal out of it to justify purchase of the later Wilson. They have so many other issues like lack of coherence between drivers, bad boomy bass, poor tone, etc.
Even if 'real' is a vague description (pun intended) I get the point and do agree with the categories, yet I'd like to subdivide into;
1 sound real and have rollof and little detail
2 sound real and have rollof and detail
etc.
For me rollof is much less important than real sound that has enough detail.
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I have mostly found that the electronics (including source electronics) were a bigger factor in realism or synthetic sound. You can get surprisingly realistic sound from a lot of the speakers out there with a good choice in gear behind it.
Has your system or the room changed at all in that time? Maybe it’s not just your ears.
It’s problematic to single out one aspect of our systems as the most important factor in achieving musical realism. Yes, electronics are critical, but then so are sources, so are speakers, so are cables, so are room acoustics and so on. As always the key is a proper balance.
In our hobby, we often focus on a very specific item and worry ourselves to death about optimizing that one parameter, and we miss the forest for the trees. Back in the mid-1970s, I thought I had tweaked every possible detail in my system to get the very best sound out of it. I had experimented with different capacitor and resistor types in my modified Dyna ST-70; I had modified the cabinets of my Fulton speakers, tried different crossover parts and values; I modified my Rabco straight-line tonearm so it sounded better with my Decca cartridges. On and on. BUT I had 16g zipcord for my speaker cables; I used the same interconnects that were included for free with all new gear in those days; and I used zipcord power cords into whatever AC wall sockets were in my apartment. Yet even with all these overlooked shortcomings, I thought my Hifi sounded very good indeed. If I could transport myself back in time, I suppose I could have improved the sound of that system considerably but would it have increased my overall enjoyment listening to my favorite LPs? Maybe, maybe not.
In our hobby, we often focus on a very specific item and worry ourselves to death about optimizing that one parameter, and we miss the forest for the trees. Back in the mid-1970s, I thought I had tweaked every possible detail in my system to get the very best sound out of it. I had experimented with different capacitor and resistor types in my modified Dyna ST-70; I had modified the cabinets of my Fulton speakers, tried different crossover parts and values; I modified my Rabco straight-line tonearm so it sounded better with my Decca cartridges. On and on. BUT I had 16g zipcord for my speaker cables; I used the same interconnects that were included for free with all new gear in those days; and I used zipcord power cords into whatever AC wall sockets were in my apartment. Yet even with all these overlooked shortcomings, I thought my Hifi sounded very good indeed. If I could transport myself back in time, I suppose I could have improved the sound of that system considerably but would it have increased my overall enjoyment listening to my favorite LPs? Maybe, maybe not.
Seen a number of aphiles shifting from modern to vintage speakers. In fact perhaps all vintagers used to be modernists, but seldom if at all the other way round?
This is what I experienced at the very end with my new turntable and LAMM electronics with my Magico Q3. Those speakers went from Bonzo‘s category 4 to category 2 though perhaps a lower level in #2 than some others.
DDK suggested to me a couple of years ago that those Magicos were not the weak point of my system but rather it was the source and electronics. All that was discussed by phone and confirmed by video from afar as the system evolved.
The final step was going to Lamm SET which then allowed for vintage corner horns or visa versa. Chicken and the egg, perfect pairing.
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Well my whole point is that two audiophiles can listen to the same two systems and disagree on which sounds more like live music. This is not preference.
I would say perception informs preference, and preference informs perception. Preference and perception both in turn are influenced and informed by listening priorities.
The upshot is that two people will not perceive live music the same way. As they don't, they will not be able to agree on which of the two same systems sounds more like live music, as you say.
Additionally, just like they will not perceive live music, as the reference to be judged against, the same way, they will not perceive the sound of each of the two systems the same way either. Which leads to a double source of disagreement.
Regardless, there are audiophiles who agree more with each other on sounds than others do.
Yes, basically what I am talking about...I recall suggesting to you as well about a change in electronics...but I guess I am not DDK...
Yet there seems to be an, implicit or explicit, idea held by some on this forum that there are reference systems, or types of systems, that all those who have unamplified live music as reference should agree on as having the most merit -- if they would just hear them. That idea is wrong, in light of the above.
Those who have this idea ascribe an absolutism to their own opinions that is not supported by the way human nature works -- including their own human nature.
As Madfloyd points out, every system falls short of capturing the full sound experience of live, unamplified music. Even the best and/or most expensive systems have shortcomings compared to the real thing, shortcomings which will be assessed differently in their importance and impact by different listeners. Therefore, there cannot be a single system that is "the best" for all.
Brad, continuously repeating that SET is the best, is not as effective as the long term careful audio hypnosis that David practices ! He is in a league of his own !Yes, basically what I am talking about...I recall suggesting to you as well about a change in electronics...but I guess I am not DDK...
Some nights i wake up in a cold sweat with a longing for some Lamm gear, Vitavox speakers and a AS 2000, and i haven't even met him in person !
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Best t Dave, that is exactly what a lot of gear does and people swoon over the “detail” and “resolution “.
With the risk of getting mauled by a angry mob, some speaker's voicing comes to mind. Especially some Wilson speakers where voiced for older gents with some high frequency hearing loss !
I think no one will be angry with you , the mob that has no large experience with Wilson speakers along the years except at shows and shops will applaud your comment that is due probably to irony or some ignorance on the Wilson Audio speaker voicing. Unfortunately Wilson Audio newsletters are not accessible any more in their site, they explained a lot about it, but many David Wilson interviews are accessible to anyone really interested in the subject - he even took the care to explain precisely what means voicing a speaker to him.
BTW, remember that hearing loss is usually joined by intolerance to some high frequencies and other hearing problems - the balance is much more complex than you seem to consider.
And yes, surely the old gents at WBF that own Wilson Audio speakers, particularly the large ones, are half deaf and love fake sound ...
Brad, continuously repeating that SET is the best, is not as effective as the long term careful audio hypnosis that David practices ! He is in a league of his own !
I can help with some top Lamm's located in Europe at a nice price in case the cold sweat becomes recurrent!
Everything i post has to be taken with a certain sense of humor, i have little experience with newer Wilson speakers. Last i heard them was at a Danish audio show 15 years ago, a set of Puppies driven by the latest Krell electronics. They kept on playing a SACD with a large Bell finale, i ran out of there screaming " the bells, the bells" like Quasimodo the hunchback from Notre Dame. !I think no one will be angry with you , the mob that has no large experience with Wilson speakers along the years except at shows and shops will applaud your comment that is due probably to irony or some ignorance on the Wilson Audio speaker voicing. Unfortunately Wilson Audio newsletters are not accessible any more in their site, they explained a lot about it, but many David Wilson interviews are accessible to anyone really interested in the subject - he even took the care to explain precisely what means voicing a speaker to him.
BTW, remember that hearing loss is usually joined by intolerance to some high frequencies and other hearing problems - the balance is much more complex than you seem to consider.
And yes, surely the old gents at WBF that own Wilson Audio speakers, particularly the large ones, are half deaf and love fake sound ...
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