Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers
- Thread starter thomask
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Agree.I have a few of them and they sound stunning.some of the best jazz recordings ever made.
Because the quality DOES come through on YouTube...not sure their codex but it is some kind of voodoo...
Wow. Nailed it.
As an aside when I setup my ( former ) vinyl mastering studio I hired an ex-Sterling tech to help out. It was very interesting to hear him speak of the advent of the music video as a major obstacle to music...
That’s interesting. The plumbing fixtures I bought 25 years ago for my house and for my rental apartments are much better then the plumbing fixtures my plumber can supply me now. The metal quality was better, they last longer, and they look better. The new stuff is crap and lasts only a few years.
It is also interesting how some vintage audio gear keeps going up in value while modern audio gear goes down in value.
Is the Saskia II idler turntable really better than the EMT 927? Is the Magico Ultimate 3, avant-garde trios, latest Cessaro horn speaker system better than the classic Western Electric or Siemens Bionor? If your assertion is correct than all of the flagship speakers and turntables since the then would have been superior. That is not the case.
I disagree with your assertion that new is always better than old and that technology is “always“ improving. It is often the case, but there’s quite a bit of expensive poor sounding audio gear with the “latest“ technology. Heck some people still prefer the old technology of magnetic tapes and vinyl records because they think it sounds better.
On the other hand streaming YouTube videos on an iPhone is pretty awesome.
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I think it stands to reason that technology improves over time. Whether or not something is manufactured in a high quality fashion is another altogether.
Take microphones for example. This is technology that is related to loud speakers in a way. 1950's microphones are simply not as good as what we have today. Listen to the wonderful golden era classical recordings. I love them but you can hear the colorations and distortions that were undoubtedly a limitation of the microphones (as well as other recording apparatus) available at the time. They do add a sort of 'charm' though.
I have heard similar colorations from vintage gear. The same 'charm' comment applies of course.
Take microphones for example. This is technology that is related to loud speakers in a way. 1950's microphones are simply not as good as what we have today. Listen to the wonderful golden era classical recordings. I love them but you can hear the colorations and distortions that were undoubtedly a limitation of the microphones (as well as other recording apparatus) available at the time. They do add a sort of 'charm' though.
I have heard similar colorations from vintage gear. The same 'charm' comment applies of course.
If you are able to source genuine originals they are superior in every way in being more real, and on any system.
When you say vintage gear, you mean the vitavox right? Did you also hear western electrics, altecs, old jbls, etc?
You've stumbled into the fallacy here that more expensive == "more better".
When it comes to crafts and machines and tools etc there are lots of intances where I find older work to have postive qualities not found in newer work. One theory I toy with is that as technology advances human interaction with it tends to decrease. Examples:
If you want the best audio transformer you can find in a new product, odds are good you will source it from a shop run by one or maybe a few craftsmen that wind it by hand on older machines. Why? The skill develops over time to make the end result the best ( in this case by measurement and ears ) and humans are quite good at incorporating minor changes into the 'muscle memory' of working.
If you want a really fine chefs knife do you yearn for one stamped out in a large factory or hand forged by some 80 year old
These examples involve new work to show what I am theorizing in that at least part of this old/new conundrum might center around lack of human skill in modern manufacturing. Of course there are other possible issues such as purity of materials getting worse or better etc.
If you want the best audio transformer you can find in a new product, odds are good you will source it from a shop run by one or maybe a few craftsmen that wind it by hand on older machines. Why? The skill develops over time to make the end result the best ( in this case by measurement and ears ) and humans are quite good at incorporating minor changes into the 'muscle memory' of working.
If you want a really fine chefs knife do you yearn for one stamped out in a large factory or hand forged by some 80 year old
These examples involve new work to show what I am theorizing in that at least part of this old/new conundrum might center around lack of human skill in modern manufacturing. Of course there are other possible issues such as purity of materials getting worse or better etc.
Genuine original what? LPs? If so, I have many.
When I say vintage I think of every vintage system I've heard (yes that includes the Vitavox). I've definitely heard JBLs, not sure about WE or Altecs. Most of the time I've heard vintage systems I haven't paid attention to brands. I'm generalizing of course.
There are many originals. They have to be sourced well. I haven't found a single well-sourced original that is not substantially superior to a newer one. Sourcing them is quite a challenge, you have to go through many copies to find good ones.
When it comes to crafts and machines and tools etc there are lots of intances where I find older work to have postive qualities not found in newer work. One theory I toy with is that as technology advances human interaction with it tends to decrease. Examples:
If you want the best audio transformer you can find in a new product, odds are good you will source it from a shop run by one or maybe a few craftsmen that wind it by hand on older machines. Why? The skill develops over time to make the end result the best ( in this case by measurement and ears ) and humans are quite good at incorporating minor changes into the 'muscle memory' of working.
If you want a really fine chefs knife do you yearn for one stamped out in a large factory or hand forged by some 80 year old
These examples involve new work to show what I am theorizing in that at least part of this old/new conundrum might center around lack of human skill in modern manufacturing. Of course there are other possible issues such as purity of materials getting worse or better etc.
I hired a chimney sweep to look at two of the fireplaces in my old house. I asked him about my growing concern for repointing and liners and the general condition of the fire boxes and chimney stacks. He told me he would rather have my fireplaces from the 1790s than any fireplace built around here since World War II. I asked him why and he told me the craftsman and mason who built my fireplace knew what he were doing. It is better constructed, draws better and heats the room better than the modern equivalent. The reason is the people who built my fireplace and many of the people to whom they passed those skills and knowledge down to died in the second world war and people today don’t know what they’re doing today. We now often have lovely gas fireplaces that are hardly ever used, don’t make any smoke, and don’t heat the room.
It is worth noting that Wilson Audio highlights the quality of the craftsmanship in its marketing campaign of its employees with their electric sander‘s and paint sprayers and polishers. Craftsmanship matters as does the knowledge and the ability to design something that works and in this case sounds good.
New is often better than old but not always.
Great chef knives are still being made, there are plenty craftsmen continuing and advancing the art of forging steel, the problem there is the same as with audio, or coffee etc; the general public has grown accustomed to the cheap crap and medicocre rubbish sold by large corporations making the craftsmen scarcer and more difficult to find.
Competition against mass production is usually impossible for artisanal production, that is IMO also what makes crafts like transformer winding go extinct.
Today I wrote on the Kitchenknifeforum; "I used to think my Global knifes were the bee's knees in knives, until I discovered proper Japanese knives". I know mostly wield a Honyaki Gyoto made by Robin Dalman or a San Mai Santoku by Shigefusa.
The analogy to me is that once people discover there is light at the end of the tunnel that is crappy products they become interested and enthusiastic...it's just that the WAF of a loudspeaker the size I'm using is a bit of an issue for most ;-)
That some brand highlights their painter is logical, painting a piece of furniture requires a great painter, painting a loudspeaker an even better one...I know a loudspeaker shop owner who went through like 5 different painters before he found one that actually could manage to deliver quality.
Competition against mass production is usually impossible for artisanal production, that is IMO also what makes crafts like transformer winding go extinct.
Today I wrote on the Kitchenknifeforum; "I used to think my Global knifes were the bee's knees in knives, until I discovered proper Japanese knives". I know mostly wield a Honyaki Gyoto made by Robin Dalman or a San Mai Santoku by Shigefusa.
The analogy to me is that once people discover there is light at the end of the tunnel that is crappy products they become interested and enthusiastic...it's just that the WAF of a loudspeaker the size I'm using is a bit of an issue for most ;-)
That some brand highlights their painter is logical, painting a piece of furniture requires a great painter, painting a loudspeaker an even better one...I know a loudspeaker shop owner who went through like 5 different painters before he found one that actually could manage to deliver quality.
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JKC R2 Ironwood Santoku 180mm - Japanese Knife Company
Made by Takeshi Saji san Fully handmade R2 Powder Steel 101 Layers Blade Ironwood Handle Hardness 64 HRC + /- 1 Made in Japan
japaneseknifecompany.com
Our favorite
Takeshi Saji started his apprenticeship at the age of 14 with his uncle in his hometown of Takefu where it has been at the forefront of knife making for over 700 years because of its purity of the Iron steel made of such clear spring water in the area and the highest grade of pine charcoal. Since Saji-san has a unique talent for creating outstanding edges and his natural affinity to this art, he was awarded the accolade of ‘Traditional Craftsman’ and at the extremely tender age (in knife making terms) of 38, the Ministry of Culture honoured him as a ‘Living Treasure’ of Japan – the youngest person ever to receive this high honour. In such busy situation for him, it was very good fortune that we meet him and he agreed to produce a comprehensive collection of kitchen knives using the greatly prized VG10 steel as the core of these luxurious Damascus blades with a total of 129 layers of alternating steel and stunningly inimitable Stag Horn handles.
The look of this most definitely unique collection is clearly inspired by its ‘hunting knife’ heritage as well meeting and even surpassing the requirements of busy chefs and dedicated home cooks. The Saji Collection embodies the complex beauty of Japanese knife making at its finest as well as being a stunning example of the art of hand forging.
SANTOKU (San – 3 & Toku – benefit): This is the classic Japanese chef’s knife. It is flat from the handle end for about ½ way to the tip and then gently curves to a point. It is ideal for straight vertical chopping, horizontal slicing and roll cutting. Function – Multi-purpose chef knife. For Slicing, Dicing and Mincing of vegetables, meat and fish. Normal length – 165mm to 180mm (smaller 140mm are available in a few collections) Tip: The 170mm/180mm is the most popular multipurpose knife.
Takeshi Saji started his apprenticeship at the age of 14 with his uncle in his hometown of Takefu where it has been at the forefront of knife making for over 700 years because of its purity of the Iron steel made of such clear spring water in the area and the highest grade of pine charcoal. Since Saji-san has a unique talent for creating outstanding edges and his natural affinity to this art, he was awarded the accolade of ‘Traditional Craftsman’ and at the extremely tender age (in knife making terms) of 38, the Ministry of Culture honoured him as a ‘Living Treasure’ of Japan – the youngest person ever to receive this high honour. In such busy situation for him, it was very good fortune that we meet him and he agreed to produce a comprehensive collection of kitchen knives using the greatly prized VG10 steel as the core of these luxurious Damascus blades with a total of 129 layers of alternating steel and stunningly inimitable Stag Horn handles.
The look of this most definitely unique collection is clearly inspired by its ‘hunting knife’ heritage as well meeting and even surpassing the requirements of busy chefs and dedicated home cooks. The Saji Collection embodies the complex beauty of Japanese knife making at its finest as well as being a stunning example of the art of hand forging.
SANTOKU (San – 3 & Toku – benefit): This is the classic Japanese chef’s knife. It is flat from the handle end for about ½ way to the tip and then gently curves to a point. It is ideal for straight vertical chopping, horizontal slicing and roll cutting. Function – Multi-purpose chef knife. For Slicing, Dicing and Mincing of vegetables, meat and fish. Normal length – 165mm to 180mm (smaller 140mm are available in a few collections) Tip: The 170mm/180mm is the most popular multipurpose knife.
I heard from Mr Chung my vintage guru that they did not sparethe material cost in vintage audio and used vest matrial available in top Western Electric system.
Some of the old materials are no longer in production due to cost and environmental issue.
But modern high end. manufactures try to save the cost of material as much as possibble.
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There actually is a guy building WE horns in France using the oak from the same forest in the US where WE sourced theirs.
https://resistormag.com/features/western-electric-horn-systems-time-travel-with-tim-gurney/
https://resistormag.com/features/western-electric-horn-systems-time-travel-with-tim-gurney/
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