Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers

[Al M.]

I am honestly not sure where to put Beving, it is more contemporary than classical, Andriessen is too far out for my taste but I listen to neither of them a whole lot.

I did not take your point as critisism, my response was not clear perhaps...there is not much of ANY serious or targeted art eduction in our schools other than painting the scenery in broad strokes which goes for visual and musical education.

As I mentioned, same in Austria as far as school is concerned. And still, both first-class Dutch and Austrian classical musicians are considered to be among the best in the world. Look at Concertgebouw and Vienna Philharmonic for orchestral, for example, all apart from smaller ensembles and soloists.

My 5 year old brings home that he suddenly pick out an instrument from whatever music I am listening to, and that I am sure he picked up at school. At home I expose him to everything from Mahler (he LOVES Mahler 2nd) to EDM and try to explain bits and pieces but focus on letting him 'sample' different music so he can see what he likes or wants to explore.

Very cool.

 

[Lagonda]

I post while listening to music as well.

Are you tying to set a new record ? You will become the top poster in no time ! When i logged on today, you had made 28 out of 34 new post, all different subjects !

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Are you tying to set a new record ? You will become the top poster in no time ! When i logged on today, you had made 28 out of 34 new post, all different subjects !

No not trying to set any record just my way of having fun.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

That’s why I am addicted to hifi or should I say addicted to posting.

 

[Lagonda]

That’s why I am addicted to hifi or should I say addicted tp posting.

LOL ! You have revitalized quite a few old old threads, not even threads that no one has posted on for years are off limit ! Good work !

 

[MarcelNL]

Looking for an imagine of the original Le Monstre class A amp by Jean Hiraga for a thread on a Monsterly audio server build on another forum I came across this arcticle about realism;

6moons audio reviews: Keith Aschenbrenner of Auditorium 23

6moons.com

(In the very distant past I built a Le Monstre, after spending ages to source the right spec Fet's and power transistors.)

 

[PeterA]

Looking for an imagine of the original Le Monstre class A amp by Jean Hiraga for a thread on a Monsterly audio server build on another forum I came across this arcticle about realism;

6moons audio reviews: Keith Aschenbrenner of Auditorium 23

6moons.com

(In the very distant past I built a Le Monstre, after spending ages to source the right spec Fet's and power transistors.)

Thanks. That is a nice read. I like this:

"When Keith went back home to Germany and listened to his system, he "realized it was just a ping-pong music experience. It was not bad really but the main fault was that I had been focusing on soundstage as a general target. I was looking between instruments instead of listening to music. It was more of an audio-visual experience than the row twenty musical experience of a concert hall. After being touched by the experience at Maison L´Audiophile, there was no way for me to go back." Keith sold his gear and purchased a 20-watt Hiraga Le Tube, Kaneda DC1 [upper left], a 12-inch SME 3012 tonearm and a Denon 103 cartridge."

I felt sort of the same way after my visit to ddk's in Utah. A distinct difference between my new vintage system and my former contemporary system is how the music is presented in the room. It now just flows and seems less static. People talk about the ability to walk around the musicians. I've never understood that. When I close my eyes at a live show, the sound and images are much less precise than that. It is not an "audio-visual experience".

 

[MarcelNL]

I completely agree, when I first heard an open baffle system I was blown away by the organic way it presented music, detailed without drowning the music in detail.
Currently I am using 1 speaker only, so only the left channel and am missing out on everything from the right channel yet without actually feeling that it is missing...I can only imagine what the second will add but I'm sure it'll be mind blowing good when the time comes.
Next month I'll get a taste of it, listening to the Klangfilm Euronor Junior in Berlin.

 

[Salectric]

I completely agree, when I first heard an open baffle system I was blown away by the organic way it presented music, detailed without drowning the music in detail.

I experienced the same thing 4 years ago when I first heard open baffle speakers at DejaVu Audio (Mclean, VA). They used Western Electric 32A horns and 713c drivers, and Jensen 15" in large open baffle cabinets. I came to the store to audition Harbeth 40.2 and Audio Notes as possible replacements for my Spendor SP-100's. After seeing my not-so-excited reactions to the Harbeths and ANs, Vu said he'd like me to hear some of his own speakers. I was totally blown away when I heard the Jensen/WEs. Hearing the lack of coloration, the unrestrained dynamics, the open transparency of these speakers, and the sheer naturalness of every record I played, I was hooked. A few months later Vu delivered my own pair of open baffles which were a somewhat less ambitious and less expensive version of what I'd heard at the store.

During the 4 years since the speakers were first delivered, I made a number of changes to the speakers and to my system generally to get closer to what I heard on that first visit, and I am pleased to say I am now very close. One of the key steps in that process turned out to be my power amps rather than the speakers themselves. Four years ago I was using Emotive Audio Vita amps which were far and away the best amps I had heard on my Spendors. They also sounded very good on the Jensen/WE speakers but the full potential of the high-efficiency speakers wasn't realized until I powered them with Western Electric 124 clones. These amps use the WE 124 circuit but have a somewhat more modern power supply. They use vintage parts where they make a positive difference---output transformers (Acrosound TO-330), Collins chokes originally installed in a US Navy ship in 1956, Allen Bradley resistors in a critical spot, and of course the tubes are all from the 1940s and 50s. Modern parts are used where they are superior---Copper V-Caps, Audio Note 2w Silver Tantalum resistors, Audio Note tube sockets, WBT binding posts, etc.

While the Jensen/Western Electric speakers sounded very good with all of the amps I tried on them, ranging from 1 watt 46 SE amps to the 60 watt Emotive Vitas, they jumped significantly closer to the sound I was seeking when I partnered them with the 124 clones.

My point is that it can be difficult to appreciate the full potential of a vintage speaker with modern electronics even with amps like the Emotives that are very good by any standard. Perhaps this has something to do with matching speakers with amplifier designs from the same era, but I think a more likely explanation is that amplifiers, just like speakers, can be voiced to emphasize the same qualities associated with vintage speakers that attracted many of us to vintage speakers in the first place.

 

[MarcelNL]

I'm currently listening to Tosca (Kruder Dorfmeister and Huber) through a stock Klangfilm KL204a , a 'spare' cinema amp using F2a11,

 

[tima]

My point is that it can be difficult to appreciate the full potential of a vintage speaker with modern electronics even with amps like the Emotives that are very good by any standard. Perhaps this has something to do with matching speakers with amplifier designs from the same era, but I think a more likely explanation is that amplifiers, just like speakers, can be voiced to emphasize the same qualities associated with vintage speakers that attracted many of us to vintage speakers in the first place.

Yes. I like to think that the way we hear music is neither modern nor vintage. If an amplifier is designed based on how we hear music, one that follows the rules of human hearing, it is independent of eras.

 

[MarcelNL]

Somehow I think there is an effect of era, nowadays many people do not hear real instruments or a realistic reproduction of 'analog' instruments and it seems to me that some engineers push that envelope by being satisfied with what they created a lot sooner than they should...which ultimately migh mean that our reference for sound decays...hmmm

 

[bonzo75]

My point is that it can be difficult to appreciate the full potential of a vintage speaker with modern electronics even with amps like the Emotives t

I would disagree. All the great western electric systems in Munich and those that Cheung owns are with Silbatone. JC, Thomas Mayer, and many others use their electronics on vintage systems. Some of them might be influenced by vintage designs, but that is about it. For phonos, amps, it is quite clear that modern electronics are used and preferred by those who have the choice. Are there the rare surviving vintage amps that sound good today, or the exact circuit replica with those original components could sound good? Possibly, but rare.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Vintage speakers can sound good with modern amplifiers and good vintage ones as well.

 

[MarcelNL]

I do think that vintage designs can work great with modern materials, yet sometimes those vintage parts outshine modern made stuff when it comes to sound properties....some specialty capacitors, high quality transformers etc. spring to mind.

We have lost a great deal of craftsmenship, which used to be far more common than it is nowadays..probably as it was a necessity in order to accomplish great things, I also suspect that people had a better reference of how true music sounded.

Often vintage gear needs updating or even just repair, for example; some gear was not designed/or made considering the need to reproduce 20Hz, heck 40-50Hz is likely the lower limit. In that process of updating or repair it is all too easy to kill the merits of the original.

 

[tima]

Somehow I think there is an effect of era, nowadays many people do not hear real instruments or a realistic reproduction of 'analog' instruments and it seems to me that some engineers push that envelope by being satisfied with what they created a lot sooner than they should...which ultimately migh mean that our reference for sound decays...hmmm

I also suspect that people had a better reference of how true music sounded.

Reproduction certainly changed with digital recording and processing, but that doesn't change how real instruments sound or how we hear them. Maybe there are not as many Kenneth Wilkersons or Wilma Cozart Fines, though they were exceptions in their day. Microphones and their placement may be different. The preservation of sound changed. Perhaps the relative satisfaction of a recording engineer with what they've made has changed, I don't know.

If our reference is live acoustic music I don't see how that or the way we hear it decays. Tonality, dynamics and timing are what they were and continue to guide a score. Reproduction is one thing but, the way we hear has not changed. Concert hall acoustics may be different in some places, some instruments change over time. Middle-C is still 261.63Hz

 

[MarcelNL]

Sure, live acoustical music and how we hear it do not likely change anytime soon. Yet another very important factor is sound perception. I tried to say that I expect that our perception of how music should sound in a system changes, which in turn may affect recordings as tone engineers are not a different breed of human.

Back in the heighdays of tube gear and vinyl there were many good recordings ( I have no clue about percentages, so this is a loose assumption), when the market was flooded by vinyl the percentage of recordings sounding true to nature decreased, probably for various reasons. Many of my favorite tracks/albums date back to the mid to late fifties, preciously few date back to the era when digital recordings were just introduced.

 

[Tango]

People talk about the ability to walk around the musicians. I've never understood that. When I close my eyes at a live show, the sound and images are much less precise than that. It is not an "audio-visual experience".

Actually on many recordings I find them present an interesting audio visual experience. I could feel as if I could walk around Heifetz and the piano placed behind him. How could any system in this expensive audio forum not make us hear Dream with Dean as if you could walk around him? Play tape of good recording of acoustic music with a few instruments I could also visualize placement, space, air around instruments. Good system and software can make people imagine that. I don't think there is anything abnormal about it. It is only a matter of you are thinking too much about it or not. You intend to think about it or not. Or you want to just flow with the music and not paying attention to the placement. If the system allow you to hear how you want to hear, both ways at you will, that is a good system. If you experience blindness for a length of time you will naturally improve your ability to locate and visualize sound. I am sure your system can play music that when I hear I could think I could walk around the instrument. It is only that you are very happy with your system now you only want to listen to music and no longer paying attention analyzing what you hear.

 

[tima]

I am sure your system can play music that when I hear I could think I could walk around the instrument.

I understood @PeterA to be drawing attention to the difference in how we describe listening in our music rooms and how we describe listening in the concert hall. In my own case I do not experience three dimensional musicians with my eyes closed when listening live, though I do have a sense of the venue they are in. I can have an experience of dimensional performers when listening to my stereo, depending on recording.

 

[thomask]

I got remastered HD version of this recording in Korea.

Actually I got around 450 HD re-master of classical and 250 Jazz albums.

I may not need to buy any new albums for next 3 years.

I found that HD remaster sounds fuller than 44.1 CD versions with nuanced details and wideer soundstage.

The above recording really sounds fabulous through my system with sweet violin and full bodied cello.



This HD remaster also sounds nice with realistc soundstage extending beyond each speakers.


The source is Cocktail Audio X30 with 2T SSD, Chord Dave and Mscaler.

I had not decided whether I will upgrade music server to Aurender N30 yet.

The pre is Schitt Freya fitted with Tungsol and Raytheon 6f8g made in 1950's.

The power amp is Line Magnetic 508 fitted with Nos RCA 805, EML 300b, Russian 6n9s, 6n8s(Melz 1578).

The speaker is Lansche 4.1 with plasma tweeter.

My system sounds midway between Magico A5 and Altec A800.

It has enough details and clarity but not analytical like Magico.

Maybe it sounds closer to Tannoy Autograph made in 1960's.

I have two Scaena 18 inch subwoofers ready for more sub bass.



After staying in Korea for 4 weeks to attend wedding of my son, I am happy to be back to my home in Washington State.

My grandson and youngest daughter posed in front of wedding place.

I expect to pick up Altec A7 late September.

A7 will be driven by Silbatone 300b amp fitted with Western Electric 300b made in 1940's.

It will be intersting to find out which I will prefer between Lansche 4.1 and Altec A7.