More Format Wars?

[Phelonious Ponk]

That's a world i am very unfamiliar with...noisy, worn vinyl. If that is your excuse for dumping analog, it's misguided at best. You do need more money than you would for very good digital. Fussy ? Not so much if you have the right tools and know what you are doing. Plus it's better for you health wise as you need to get up off your ass to flip sides every 10 to 20 minutes depending on the record speed.

I didn't need an excuse to walk away from vinyl; I don't like the sound of it. Pretty simple, really. But now, it seems, I was supposed to keep a vinyl rig, and listen to every day, in an on-going, never-ending effort to remember that I don't like the sound of it, or more accurately, to have a legitimate POV according to those who do like the sound of it. Of course that wouldn't work either. Then it would just be an inadequate vinyl rig. Or a signal chain incapable of producing the glory of a vinyl rig. Or something. More noise, more distortion, lower dynamic range, less accurate frequency response...if none of this means anything to the vinyl crowd, my opinion certainly isn't going to sway them, no matter what kind of analog rig I have. So I enjoy the rig I've chosen.

I wish you the same. Enjoy your choices. Even believe that they are objectively superior if that helps.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Maybe we don't ... in my opinion ... like the best musical instruments, pleasant and rewarding "coloration's" define analog playback to my ears, even at the highest levels. That's what I luv about this hobby, how we can manipulate analog by not only adding transparency, but a certain uniqueness that's inherited within any great sounding system. Hell, what two cartridges sound exactly the same ... what two of anything within an analog rig sounds exactly the same for that matter ... analog reproduction remains very much a moving target ...

tb1

You are distorting the original sense I wanted to imprint to "pleasant" and "rewarding". These terms do not refer to analog or digital or coloration. Some signal manipulations increase the possibility of creating in the listener the emotional connection with the objective of the sound reproduction - recreation of an existing moment that shows some connection with our real experience or an artist creation. They are felt as pleasant and can motivate a preference. If by any reason this manipulation is statistically perceived by a population as positive thing (this means preferred because it increases the number of times the objectives of the recording are achieved) IMHO we should consider it as a good manipulation. If something makes the sound reproduction less pleasant for a significant majority, we should think they will not prefer it, and consider it a bad think.

Anyway I hoped we were not yet in the phase of mixing intentional colorations of musical instruments (that create the real sound) with colorations of the reproduction system and must be analyzed differently. They have different purposes and mixing or comparing them does not bring anything positive to the debate.

 

[c1ferrari]

The more interesting question is "which one is closer to the original signal, the analog or the digital copy?".

Interesting. I would be motivated to capture the performance. If one were recording an acoustic performance in a pleasantly-sounding venue with 2 mics directly to a 2-channel analog tape recorder and digital recorder -- the results would be instructive.

However, neither process may capture the performance. This is where mic placement and selection are crucial.

 

[microstrip]

My current setup consists of a beagleboard-based custom computer running a stripped-down linux system, driving a hypex DLCP fronting upgraded Linn Isobariks actively driven by 4-way hypex nC400 amps. In both my subjective listening experience and my measurements it is superior both to the (upgraded) Revox B77 and the military research-spec Racal tape decks and various vinyl front-ends I have compared with.

I have experience with the old active Linn Isobariks. Although I do not have detail enough about your system to imagine how it sounds or appreciate it (I see it is mainly as a single DIY experience), I have built and used many speakers using the KEF units you own decades ago. What crossovers are you using?

 

[TBone]

Some signal manipulations increase the possibility of creating in the listener the emotional connection with the objective of the sound reproduction - recreation of an existing moment that shows some connection with our real experience or an artist creation.

ok, got it .... "good manipulation" isn't a coloration ... not the same thing?

Semantics aside, I'm not certain which "manipulations" you are referring?

tb1

 

[microstrip]

ok, got it .... "good manipulation" isn't a coloration ... not the same thing?

Semantics aside, I'm not certain which "manipulations" you are referring?

tb1

No, because many people will admit that any "coloration" means a systematic degradation of the perceived sound quality - they were thought so!

Example of manipulations that can improve our pleasantness - passing the signal through the proper preamplifier (the one we and many others) prefer in our system. Or choosing the proper DAC, one that "manipulated" the bits to sound pleasant in our system.

 

[NorthStar]

What does PONO stand for? ...And Meridian, what conceptual audio algorithm are they using?

This is an ALTERNATIVE to the inferior sounding MP3. ...I see no format war here.

Neil Young; I thought he was promoting albums (LPs)? ...Is this stuff only for Pop, Rock, and all that crap music?

 

[rockitman]

Interesting. I would be motivated to capture the performance. If one were recording an acoustic performance in a pleasantly-sounding venue with 2 mics directly to a 2-channel analog tape recorder and digital recorder -- the results would be instructive.

However, neither process may capture the performance. This is where mic placement and selection are crucial.

My guess is that they would sound very close whether SOTA tape or digital. The problem is in reality, you never get the raw performance recordings untouched .....it's all doctored up for resale via compression, normalization, bit depth reduction, ect.

 

[TBone]

This is an ALTERNATIVE to the inferior sounding MP3. ...I see no format war here.

WAV, FLAC, etc ... all ALTERNATIVES ... the war continues ...

 

[NorthStar]

WAV, FLAC, etc ... all ALTERNATIVES ... the war continues ...

War is like LPs versus CDs (analog/digital). ...Or Blu-rays versus HD DVDs. ...Or VHS versus Betamax. ...Or Sony versus Toshiba.
...Or Apple (Mac) versus Microsoft (Windows). ...Or Androids versus iPhones. ...Or iPads versus Blackberries. ...Or Tablets versus Laptops. ...Or ....

 

[TBone]

No, because many people will admit that any "coloration" means a systematic degradation of the perceived sound quality - they were thought so!

But they'd be wrong ... right?

 

[TBone]

Is this stuff only for Pop, Rock, and all that crap music?

Really?

(sigh)

 

[TBone]

War is like LPs versus CDs

but a squabble in reality ...

 

[Groucho]

...And Meridian, what conceptual audio algorithm are they using?

Is it not just a straight hi rez format then? It puts Meridian in an interesting position, as they have to maintain the appearance of being rational science type people, and not undermine their current products which are supposed to be top notch with CD anyway. This deal suddenly makes all their current systems look second best. If it's meant to be an encrypted format, can they retro-fit it to their current systems without exposing the unencrypted stream?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

..Is this stuff only for Pop, Rock, and all that crap music?

Are you for real? Gheez.....

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

War is like LPs versus CDs (analog/digital). ...Or Blu-rays versus HD DVDs. ...Or VHS versus Betamax. ...Or Sony versus Toshiba.
...Or Apple (Mac) versus Microsoft (Windows). ...Or Androids versus iPhones. ...Or iPads versus Blackberries. ...Or Tablets versus Laptops. ...Or ....

Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[c1ferrari]

My guess is that they would sound very close whether SOTA tape or digital. The problem is in reality, you never get the raw performance recordings untouched .....it's all doctored up for resale via compression, normalization, bit depth reduction, ect.

Agreed, Christian.
And, for me, even with such recordings made by myself or with the invaluable help of friends -- I don't have an ideal listening environment with which to make critical evaluation

 

[NorthStar]

Really?

(sigh)

Yes really.

 

[TBone]

and not undermine their current products which are supposed to be top notch with CD anyway.

I'm not really up on the current Meridian line, however ... I can't imagine they'd be selling a lot of top-notch CD players these days.

 

[NorthStar]

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I'll make an exception, today. ...From WBF, Blu-ray Forum, etc. ...And yes I am for real.

Enjoy your weekend John.