Yes, my dealer has the lift switch and his isn't upgraded, it's brand new unit. He also prefers the ground lifted to his Ref amps....He is using Siltech and Transparent balanced cabling - both with great results.
Nagra REFERENCE Preamp
- Thread starter Zeotrope
- Start date
I won’t argue with what he prefers, but according to Rene at Nagra, the optimal setting is with ground Not lifted.
Generally, this is the case for all components (source is Grant at Shunyata, I just asked. BTW, he owns the HD Pre).
Lifting ground is a bit like cheating. It’s best to find and address the root cause of the noise.
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The Luna Noir (perhaps I’m not supposed to say this but this is the wiring used in the REF Amps, and perhaps the Pre too) is nowhere near done breaking-in (silver/tin/cotton takes at least 300 hours to settle), I am finally experiencing incredible sound. I’m going to try to not compare to anything I had before (DarTZeel, Kondo Japan) because there’s no real comparison.
If I had to choose one word it would be balanced. Balanced in terms of achieving typically opposing qualities: huge soundstage with micro detail that reveals each instrument with pinpoint accuracy yet still represents the orchestra remarkably cohesively. Incredible tone but also tremendous scale and energy when called for. Prodigious bass and also remarkable highs without a trace of harshness.
It is the first time I have been emotionally engaged when listening.
One neat example in Saturday Night in San Francisco (Impex 2021) is you can hear the difference in sound from the angle of guitars: the right hand guitar is at a more acute angle to the stage (and to the mic) than the left guitar. It’s clearly audible! With the DarTZeel 18NS/108 MkIi it was not audible. The placement of each instrument wasn’t nearly as precise. It actually sounded liked 2 guitarists with a somewhat murky placement in the left channel, not 3 guitarists.
And the best I can say about digital sources is that it sounds like analog did before the REF Amps.
The switch to Nagra REF Pre and Amps has been worth every dollar.
If I had to choose one word it would be balanced. Balanced in terms of achieving typically opposing qualities: huge soundstage with micro detail that reveals each instrument with pinpoint accuracy yet still represents the orchestra remarkably cohesively. Incredible tone but also tremendous scale and energy when called for. Prodigious bass and also remarkable highs without a trace of harshness.
It is the first time I have been emotionally engaged when listening.
One neat example in Saturday Night in San Francisco (Impex 2021) is you can hear the difference in sound from the angle of guitars: the right hand guitar is at a more acute angle to the stage (and to the mic) than the left guitar. It’s clearly audible! With the DarTZeel 18NS/108 MkIi it was not audible. The placement of each instrument wasn’t nearly as precise. It actually sounded liked 2 guitarists with a somewhat murky placement in the left channel, not 3 guitarists.
And the best I can say about digital sources is that it sounds like analog did before the REF Amps.
The switch to Nagra REF Pre and Amps has been worth every dollar.
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I don’t think so. Digital will never match the realism of analog so when I listen to digital it’s with lower expectations vis a vis analog. Consequently, the vast majority of the time I use the DAC with movies, and there the fidelity is even lower than with high res music.
The HD DAC X sounds fantastic as is. All told, I don’t think the upgrade cost is worth it. Not to mention that I don’t want to be without the unit for ~2-3 months!
What exactly happens physically in the break in process?
The people with PTFE talk about the dielectric like it shrouds the wire in magic.
But others like AQ put in battery biasing in order to align the dielectric.
And sometimes people poo-poo cotton as being hydroscopic and not protective chemically.
Or they point out that cotton and silk have a lower dielectric constant than PTFE.
I am not sure if I am surprised that they are using cotton insulated wire, but I guess maybe I am.
Does it also infer that one may want to be using cotton cover silver for the ICs?
Thank you. Interestingly, I think I read somewhere someone had said that they found the uplift in performance been DAC X and Ref DAC to be substantially and surprisingly much greater than the uplift between the Pre and Amps to Ref level. Let me try to go find it.
Interesting, by all means share it if you find it.
All Rene has talked about is the Pre and Amps, he has never mentioned the REF DAC upgrades. So I highly doubt it - I think the focus was on the Amps first, then Pre, and then to round out the offering, the DAC. That's certainly how I would upgrade, in that order.
If you ask Rene about his REF DAC impressions, he’s happy to share them. I didn’t ask about the HD pre/amp to REF pre/amp delta bc it’s a bit apples and oranges, but the HD DAC to REF DAC jump appears to be quite significant.
Folks may be less likely to volunteer DAC impressions bc generally, people find it more difficult to justify digital upgrades at that price point vs pre / amp / speaker upgrades, on the assumption that digital is always evolving (when actually, I think the analog stage / power supplies determine most of the sound…and not surprisingly, the upgrades here are all in the analog / power realm).
Hi, so interesting comments on barely spinning vinyl. Have you done any A/B listening on the Ref Dac vs. your vinyl to see if you can hear anything at this point? I've seen some reports of highly controlled A/B listening sessions where listeners were unable to differential between vinyl and digital on systems likely not as good at the Ref DAC. A dealer told me that Nagra thinks the Ref DAC is competitive with master tapes, so curious how far you think that is from reality. I have resisted going down the vinyl path, but have always had some budget set aside for that eventuality once the kids were out of the house, but maybe that budget is better preserved for a Ref Dac at some point?
I can tell you that there is no comparison between Digital and Vinyl or Tape. I would argue that I have the best front end possible, other than the new Taiko Olympus. I'm using the Taiko Extreme with XDMS, Router and Switch (and yes, each of these made a huge difference to the sound).
While I "only" have the HD DAC X, there is no comparison between digital and vinyl (Nagra REF TT/HD Phono) or tape (Metaxas Papillon).
Digital sounds great, don't get me wrong: it's clean, detailed, engaging; and if you don't listen to the analog sources, you would be happy. Analog provides the realism, tonal accuracy, and just a lifelike element that is missing with even the best digital tracks.
As one dealer put it when he heard my system: with digital it's as if the performers are rushing to finish so they can go home. With analog, they are pouring their heart and soul into each track.
Unfortunately, you have to spend a lot more to get world-class analog vs digital, and of course it's a lot less convenient.
While I "only" have the HD DAC X, there is no comparison between digital and vinyl (Nagra REF TT/HD Phono) or tape (Metaxas Papillon).
Digital sounds great, don't get me wrong: it's clean, detailed, engaging; and if you don't listen to the analog sources, you would be happy. Analog provides the realism, tonal accuracy, and just a lifelike element that is missing with even the best digital tracks.
As one dealer put it when he heard my system: with digital it's as if the performers are rushing to finish so they can go home. With analog, they are pouring their heart and soul into each track.
Unfortunately, you have to spend a lot more to get world-class analog vs digital, and of course it's a lot less convenient.
Interesting...nice feedback thanks. Reading between the lines, it sounds like your digital setup probably outperforms a lot of vinyl setups but on the same system with top notch vinyl rig (and I assume high quality pressings), vinyl is still noticeably better.
Yes, I think that if you want "the best" sound, it will be with tape or vinyl.
Interestingly, the best price to performance is tape, if you look at the machine and pre-amp only (not the media cost). After that would be digital, where for about $100k you can get a world class setup. Unfortunately, TT prices have skyrocketed... along with our industry as a whole.
Funny you say that. I’m actually exploring the tape route for exactly that reason - significantly less footprint and effort required for something top notch. Access to enough content is the tougher question.
I can still hear the super cool vinyl things. But I am also running a 65k turntable, 21k arm with the Nagra Ref Cartridge and Nagra HD Phono. I can hear the differences in the formats. I just can't say one is better...it depends on the software...both have nice things. Analog tape to vinyl or 4x DSD/32bit/354 DXD is pretty spectacular in either format. If it's digitally recorded I tend to prefer digital, but again a preference vs a rule.
I'd say it depends on your software collection. I have 5000 LP's. Some years old, love listening to them, on a spinning platter. That said, the Ref DAC has altered my digital vs vinyl playing time ratio. It's a sweet dac. I have not bought a vinyl record since the Ref DAC was delivered on 12/31/24. I've bought 50+ digital downloads....so maybe that says something ?!?
I wouldn't say better for me, preferably on certain recordings hec yeah. I know you asked zoetrope...just chiming in
Appreciate the clarification…and I hear you. Sounds like you can’t generalize - depends on the album and quality of / method used for the original recording.I wouldn't say better for me, preferably on certain recordings hec yeah. I know you asked zoetrope...just chiming in
Just to chime in: before the Nagra TT, I had a Brinkmann with the SME V12, Kondo silver wiring, and the tube PSU - a very nice setup (which I am selling BTW, for about $10k). Against that, the Taiko Extreme and HD DAC X was better. I stopped spinning records and was buying only digital high res tracks. I claimed to a friend/dealer that the analog-digital war is “over” and digital won.
It’s amazing how much of a difference a better setup makes - in both worlds.
It’s amazing how much of a difference a better setup makes - in both worlds.
Makes total sense…thx. So which source have you found to be the best for downloading hi-res digital? And do you notice a meaningful improvement over streaming Quobuz?
Very very interesting that you say that.
1. Brinkman and SME v12 is probably no slouch. I am no TT guy whatsoever, but those names carry weight.
2. The fact that Nagra HD DAC X beat that table and nearly turned you into a digital convert says something when you consider:
- It took Nagra TT to get you back over the line
- But NOW, there is now a Nagra DAC Ref
- And someone here suggested Nagra felt their DAC Ref was butting up against Tape
So it could well be you have to hear the Ref DAC to see if (in the same way Nagra DAC X beat Brinkman) Ref DAC beats Nagra TT.
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