Neutral power amp recommendations?

[Ron Resnick]

This hasn't been my experience with the MBLs I've heard, plenty dynamic.

I apologize for butting in. But I think you are talking past each other. In my terminology "dynamic range" is different than "dynamic."

I think MBLs are incredibly dynamic. But I understand the dynamic range point Phantom is talking about.

 

[Rensselaer]

I have discussed several times before how MBL 101E Mk. II is a very polarizing speaker. The many people who love it consider it the most realistic and convincing speaker they've ever heard in their lives (except for MBL X-Treme). The people for whom MBL is not their cup of tea hear a metallic sound and an overly bright sound.

Neither of these two groups will ever hear -- and thus will ever understand -- what the other group is talking about.

I think you could apply that to those who have a problem with the sound of digital and those who don’t.

 

[A-Line]

I think you could apply that to those who have a problem with the sound of digital and those who don’t.

You have a excellent point here. I've not listened to MBL enough but could easily see this as a possible reality.
I really struggled with digital in the beginning but now I'm quite happy with that format.

 

[Atmasphere]

Which horns? Most that I've heard can't escape the cupping of hands effect.

What horn does that?? If the horn is set up properly and has a proper taper this sort of thing doesn't happen.

I have discussed several times before how MBL 101E Mk. II is a very polarizing speaker. The many people who love it consider it the most realistic and convincing speaker they've ever heard in their lives (except for MBL X-Treme). The people for whom MBL is not their cup of tea hear a metallic sound and an overly bright sound.

Neither of these two groups will ever hear -- and thus will ever understand -- what the other group is talking about.

I'm right down the middle on this one. I've heard them sound bright (using mbl amps and preamp) and I've heard them sound extremely natural. They need some power is all and that power needs to be clean; they will show off amplifier problems quite easily. They don't need an excessive amount of power though- in most rooms 200 Watts is plenty. They look inefficient on paper but you have to remember that most of the energy of the speaker isn't picked up by a single microphone only 1 meter away. So add 6dB to the rating and you have a more accurate idea of the sensitivity of the speaker.

I apologize for butting in. But I think you are talking past each other. In my terminology "dynamic range" is different than "dynamic."

I think MBLs are incredibly dynamic. But I understand the dynamic range point Phantom is talking about.

Thermal compression is a problem for any speaker that uses voice coils and is lower efficiency. Horns are more 'dynamic' because there's less thermal compression; the voice coils don't heat up as much.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think you could apply that to those who have a problem with the sound of digital and those who don’t.

Sure, to the extent that different people hear different things, you can apply the description to almost anything in audio.

But there is something uniquely polarizing about the sound of the MBL speakers, and I believe the partisans there understand each other less well than do partisans of digital and analog.

 

[Atmasphere]

But there is something uniquely polarizing about the sound of the MBL speakers, and I believe the partisans there understand each other less well than do partisans of digital and analog.

IMO that really has to do more with people simply not hearing the right equipment on that speaker. Its pretty revealing and IMO it shows off what's wrong with the mbl electronics, although my experience with that is from 10 years ago.

 

[mtemur]

I wasn't aware of MBL amps not being linear in output from 20 - 20KHz. Can you please share the data that substantiates your claim? Thanks in advance.

I don't claim anything. People share their experiences on this forum mostly based on listening. I shared mine regarding MBL amps and speakers so, my ears and experience is the data.

 

[sbo6]

I have discussed several times before how MBL 101E Mk. II is a very polarizing speaker. The many people who love it consider it the most realistic and convincing speaker they've ever heard in their lives (except for MBL X-Treme). I understand why they feel this way. The radialstrahler generates a physicality in the sound-stage which is unparalleled.

The people for whom MBL is not their cup of tea hear a metallic sound and an overly bright sound.

Neither of these two groups will ever hear -- and thus will ever understand -- what the other group is talking about.

Sounds like a bit of a finite statement. I've heard the MBLs sound a bit bright, and I've often heard them sound perfectly balanced. Maybe it's more setup / synergy more than anything.

 

[sbo6]

I don't claim anything. People share their experiences on this forum mostly based on listening. I shared mine regarding MBL amps and speakers so, my ears and experience is the data.

Sure you did, you claimed MBL amps have a boost and their speakers have a suckout at a freq. range, but you have no proof from MBL or anywhere else. You're claiming it based on your experiences. Also, if the amps have a boost and the speakers a suckout, wouldn't that yield flat, so what's there to hear or?

 

[sbo6]

What horn does that?? If the horn is set up properly and has a proper taper this sort of thing doesn't happen.

A better question is - what horn doesn't do that? I've heard few, I guess they got the taper wrong, or the compression driver wrong, or the cabinet wrong, or the crossover wrong, or the driver topology wrong, or the ...

 

[sbo6]

I apologize for butting in. But I think you are talking past each other. In my terminology "dynamic range" is different than "dynamic."

I think MBLs are incredibly dynamic. But I understand the dynamic range point Phantom is talking about.

Thanks Ron, you're right, different descriptors.

Specific to dynamic range, what exactly are some MBLs rolling off?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks Ron, you're right, different descriptors.

Specific to dynamic range, what exactly are some MBLs rolling off?

To me "rolling off" suggests a subjectively perceived or an objectively measured frequency response phenomenon. I'm not suggesting MBLs are rolling anything off.

Maybe we should ask Phantom what "dynamic range" point he was trying to make above.

 

[Atmasphere]

A better question is - what horn doesn't do that? I've heard few, I guess they got the taper wrong, or the compression driver wrong, or the cabinet wrong, or the crossover wrong, or the driver topology wrong, or the ...

The Classic Audio Loudspeakers don't do that, which includes the Hartsfield Reproduction. My old Altecs didn't do that (although I had them decades ago and I had damped the horns). A set of EV Patricians I heard didn't do that. My aunt had Klipsch corner horns, they didn't do that.

 

[sbo6]

The Classic Audio Loudspeakers don't do that, which includes the Hartsfield Reproduction. My old Altecs didn't do that (although I had them decades ago and I had damped the horns). A set of EV Patricians I heard didn't do that. My aunt had Klipsch corner horns, they didn't do that.

We must have different hearing capabilities.

 

[mtemur]

Sure you did, you claimed MBL amps have a boost and their speakers have a suckout at a freq. range, but you have no proof from MBL or anywhere else. You're claiming it based on your experiences.

I shared what I heard and I don't need a proof for that. Do you have anything that proves I'm wrong?

Also, if the amps have a boost and the speakers a suckout, wouldn't that yield flat, so what's there to hear or?

I already said that in my prior post. Please check below.

MBL amps sound neutral with MBL speakers.

I listened MBL amps with other speakers and MBL speakers with other amplifiers.

 

[Atmasphere]

We must have different hearing capabilities.

I'm sure that's true!! I have LPs I recorded, some of which I also mastered. I like to use them for reference since I was there.

Of those speakers I listed, the ones I take seriously are the Classic Audio Loudspeakers. I have the T3.3s. The compression driver diaphragms in them are beryllium and so have the first breakup at about 35KHz, so they are nice and smooth. The alloy diaphragms of the legacy horn systems often have breakups that can make them unpleasant at higher volumes. But that's different from the 'cupped hands' thing.

 

[Lagonda]

I shared what I heard and I don't need a proof for that. Do you have anything that proves I'm wrong?


I already said that in my prior post. Please check below.


I listened MBL amps with other speakers and MBL speakers with other amplifiers.

Most amps just can't drive the more difficult MBL speaker properly, even big SS amps like Krell lack the grunt in the midbass required to come alive. MBL amps have a synergy with these speakers, but sound very neutral on other speakers. The big 9011 amps sound amazing on my Martin Logans, a easier speaker system to drive than MBL.

 

[Atmasphere]

Most amps just can't drive the more difficult MBL speaker properly, even big SS amps like Krell lack the grunt in the midbass required to come alive. MBL amps have a synergy with these speakers, but sound very neutral on other speakers. The big 9011 amps sound amazing on my Martin Logans, a easier speaker system to drive than MBL.

? Our MA-2s had no troubles making bass on that speaker. Its really not that hard to drive!

 

[Lagonda]

? Our MA-2s had no troubles making bass on that speaker. Its really not that hard to drive!

Sure Ralph !

 

[sbo6]

I shared what I heard and I don't need a proof for that. Do you have anything that proves I'm wrong?


I already said that in my prior post. Please check below.


I listened MBL amps with other speakers and MBL speakers with other amplifiers.

You sound like the religious ;-)

If I say, "The center of the earth is made of molten cheese, do you have anything to prove I'm wrong?" That doesn't make it true.

You made the statement that MBL amps have a frequency range bump and their speaker have a frequency range dip, the burden of proof is on you to prove it is true.