Neutral power amp recommendations?

[Atmasphere]

Just out of curiosity, how do you prove this exactly?

Do you mean how did I figure this out or how can it be demonstrated? Or how is an argument won on the internet? All very different ways of looking at this question

So, people in the Middle Ages believed they would have known if the world was spherical, not flat. Similarly, physicists thought Newton's laws could explain the movements of light and subatomic particles until quantum mechanics proved them wrong.

If measurements alone capture everything we hear, then why do well-measuring Class D amps still sound terrible?

Again, the knowledge of what the measurements are telling us are not well understood. The reason any amp, not just a class D, can measure well but sound bad is explained by the venerable Daniel von Recklinghausen :

If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing."

In the case of the alleged class D, what measurements were shown looked pretty 'good' (which is clearly open to interpretation) according to you. I'm guessing not enough of the measurements were shown and I've found that quite often even the people doing the measurements don't know what they imply. This knowledge is even more lacking in the marketplace!

I used the prior example of John Atkinson measuring the MBL amplifier as an example. Clearly he didn't understand what it means when distortion rises with frequency. I don't really expect that of him since he's not known for amplifiers he designed. I have been saying here what that measurement means (whether anyone wants to take advantage of that is another matter...). Go and look at the measurements of the alleged class D amp and see if that one shows up.

 

[hopkins]

Do you mean how did I figure this out or how can it be demonstrated?

Whichever. It's not a question of "winning or losing an argument". You claim something, which is important (you even put it in italics in your post), so please let us know how you back it up.

 

[Atmasphere]

Whichever. It's not a question of "winning or losing an argument". You claim something, which is important (you even put it in italics in your post), so please let us know how you back it up.

Well we all know about the measurements. We also know about listening. So this isn't rocket science. What I found is that there are several factors that contribute to a good sounding amplifier and they are universal.

Some of this I learned from texts, such as those of Norman Crowhurst, Peter Baxandall and Bruno Putzeys, all beyond reproach in their fields. So I worked with the concepts that seemed to emerge from these authors and built circuits to test the ideas out. Of course it didn't all come from just those authors. When I state that there was something of interest in the Radiotron Designer's Handbook, its because I have a copy of it.

IOW I'm not the first to make some of these claims. But it does seem I'm one of the very few who does so interacting with audiophiles on audio forums.

So that's another way of interpreting the question and providing an answer. Do you need more?

 

[hopkins]

Well we all know about the measurements. We also know about listening. So this isn't rocket science. What I found is that there are several factors that contribute to a good sounding amplifier and they are universal.

Some of this I learned from texts, such as those of Norman Crowhurst, Peter Baxandall and Bruno Putzeys, all beyond reproach in their fields. So I worked with the concepts that seemed to emerge from these authors and built circuits to test the ideas out. Of course it didn't all come from just those authors. When I state that there was something of interest in the Radiotron Designer's Handbook, its because I have a copy of it.

IOW I'm not the first to make some of these claims. But it does seem I'm one of the very few who does so interacting with audiophiles on audio forums.

So that's another way of interpreting the question and providing an answer. Do you need more?

Ok, so in your experience, improvements in some metrics are correlated with your subjective impressions. I think most audio engineers will say the same.

You are the one trying to "win arguments". But you should realize that few people really care about "the best measuring gear" - those who really do are on ASR buying 1000$ amps

 

[Atmasphere]

Ok, so in your experience, improvements in some metrics are correlated with your subjective impressions. I think most audio engineers will say the same.

You are the one trying to "win arguments". But you should realize that few people really care about "the best measuring gear" - those who really do are on ASR buying 1000$ amps

IMO, the ASR crowd represents a minority in the audio world.

My proof of this is brick and mortar stores rely on subjective experiences- ones that are easily repeatable. They would be entirely unnecessary if spec sheets told the whole story and since longer than I've been alive, they haven't.

As a result we have measurements that 'look good' but sweep a lot of dirt under the carpet. This biggest sinner in this department is THD, because it doesn't tell how how much distortion is really there since it ignores distortion rise with frequency.

IME, most of the people on ASR do not understand how to tell if an amplifier (for example) measures well. This missing bit is its not important that it measures well for the spec sheet. What's important is that it measure well for the ear (which is why I like to quote Mr von Recklinghausen). Often these are the same thing and often they are not.

I see a distinction between winning arguments vs attempting to inform. The former does not require you even be correct! Winning arguments is often about trying to make the other wrong regardless of reality.

 

[hopkins]

IMO, the ASR crowd represents a minority in the audio world.

My proof of this is brick and mortar stores rely on subjective experiences- ones that are easily repeatable. They would be entirely unnecessary if spec sheets told the whole story and since longer than I've been alive, they haven't.

As a result we have measurements that 'look good' but sweep a lot of dirt under the carpet. This biggest sinner in this department is THD, because it doesn't tell how how much distortion is really there since it ignores distortion rise with frequency.

IME, most of the people on ASR do not understand how to tell if an amplifier (for example) measures well. This missing bit is its not important that it measures well for the spec sheet. What's important is that it measure well for the ear (which is why I like to quote Mr von Recklinghausen). Often these are the same thing and often they are not.

I see a distinction between winning arguments vs attempting to inform. The former does not require you even be correct! Winning arguments is often about trying to make the other wrong regardless of reality.

You are missing the big picture here and you are making no effort to understand what I am telling you.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Many people think we can't measure what we can hear or something to that effect. That was true years ago but isn't now.

How do you measure transparency?

How do you measure a sense of "dryness" or "wetness" in the midrange?

How do you measure what I call "breath of life" of vocals?

I'm not coming up, here, with exotic or esoteric sonic attributes. These are the sonic attributes I personally care most about.

 

[Holmz]

How do you measure transparency?

How do you measure a sense of "dryness" or "wetness" in the midrange?

How do you measure what I call "breath of life" of vocals?

I'm not coming up, here, with exotic or esoteric sonic attributes. These are the sonic attributes I personally care most about.

Even though ^it looks like a rhetorical question^ there are some truths.
Some can gleen a sense of the sense of the euphonic character from the amplifier’s distortion profile.

I know a fellow that had relatively laid back speakers.
And he did not particularly like Raph’s Class-D amps, saying that they lost some of the high end sparkle.
Similar things have been said about the Benchmark AHB1.
And I know my tube amp that does Triode or Push-pull, seems to sound fuller (maybe better) in push pull…
But it actually is better in triode with some types of music, and it sounds quieter in Triode mode, which I have mentioned elsewhere.
(Maybe in your frequency response thread?)
I am sure I would like Ralph’s Class-D, as I like a mellower sound that can be listened to for longer periods… or maybe it is better phrased by saying that, “that sibilant sounds really grate on me.”

If one likes exciting sound, then maybe they want more sharpness or other sparkle, twinkle, or edge.
So what you prefer is what you prefer, assuming you like a tautology argument.

However for people that get fatigued, that points to something that is not right.
And for people that are triggered by an amp over doing the sound with harsh harmonics then it can be a real thing to prefer something that is truer to the source material.

Hi everyone,
….
About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc. I originally architected my system around a ‘warmer’ sound but have come more recently to appreciate neutrality and transparency.

Edit: Also forgot to mention, looking for solid state, not tubes. And price would be under $30k.
…

Based upon the OP’s opening post, I think that it is hard to argue that some nasty, or sharp sounding amplifier, is a great value… no matter how expensive or cheap it is.
It could be a great amp for someone else… but not a great amp for the the OP, and maybe not a great amplifier for me.

Other people mentioned silver cables, over copper.
I certainly would prefer a silver cable with a lower/better distortion profile amplifier, than using a copper, aluminium, or iron cable to tone down a nasty amp.

Nasty, or course,- being in the ear of the beholder.

I’ll say it again, that a system that sounds quiet can be a rare thing.
We do not get those unless a lot of the distortions are pretty low.
And those systems can somewhat lack in their level of excitement… but one does not hear “the system” then, and it is mostly just hearing the music, and it sounds more natural.
It just may not be what everyone wants.

 

[Lagonda]

Even though ^it looks like a rhetorical question^ there are some
Some can get a sense of the sense of the euphonic character from the amplifier’s distortion profile.

I know a fellow that had relatively laid back speakers.
And he did not particularly like Raph’s Class-D amps, saying that they lost some of the high end sparkle.
Similar things have been said about the Benchmark AHB1.
And I know my tube amp that does Triode or Push-pull, seems to sound fuller (maybe better) in push pull…
But it actually is better in triode with some types of music, and it sounds quieter in Triode mode, which I have mentioned elsewhere.
(Maybe in your frequency response thread?)
I am sure I would like Ralph’s Class-D, as I like a mellower sound that can be listened to for longer periods… or maybe it is better phrased by saying that, “that sibilant sounds really grate on me.”

If one likes exciting sound, then maybe they want more sharpness or other sparkle, twinkle, or edge.
So what your prefer is what you prefer, assuming you like a tautology argument.

However for people that get fatigued, that points to something that is not right.
And for people that are triggered by an amp over doing the sound with harsh harmonics then it can be a real thing to prefer something that is truer to the source material.


Based upon the OP’s opening post, I think that it is hard to argue that some nasty, or sharp sounding amplifier, is not a great value… no matter how expensive or cheap it is.
It could be a great amp for someone else… but not a great amp for the the OP, and maybe not a great amplifier for me.

Other people mentioned silver cables, over copper.
I certainly would prefer a silver cable with a lower/better distortion profile amplifier, than using a copper, aluminium, or iron cable to tone down a nasty amp.

Nasty, or course,- being in the ear of the beholder.

I’ll say it again, that a system that sounds quiet can be a rare thing.
We do not get those unless a lot of the distortions are pretty low.
And those systems can somewhat lack in their excitement… but one does not hear “the system” then, and it is mostly just hearing the music, and it sounds more natural.
It just may not be what everyone wants.

You got it all wrong, copper is neutral, silver is bright, dull amps need silver, neutral amps sound good with good copper cables

 

[Holmz]

You got it all wrong, copper is neutral, silver is bright, dull amps need silver, neutral amps sound good with good copper cables

Stranded or solid?

 

[Lagonda]

Stranded or solid?

MBL speakers have a jumper setting that don't change the crossover, they just change a piece of cable internally, smooth is solid copper, neutral is stranded copper and extra treble/fast is silver.

 

[Lagonda]

MBL speakers have a jumper setting that don't change the crossover, they just change a piece of cable internally, smooth is solid copper, neutral is stranded copper and extra treble/fast is silver. View attachment 134569

Oh shit ! I just realized they used the word natural, not neutral, let the discussions begin !

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Oh shit ! I just realized they used the word natural, not neutral, let the discussions begin !

sh*t stirrer!

my viewpoint is tonal shift has more to do with reflective room set up and driver character than metallurgy of the crossover wires. yet these types of cable wires are not that predictive, meaning that not all copper stranded or solid, or all silver, is created equal. there are many variations of these things and contexts where they are used. so throwing a generality at this issue is not helpful across particular systems and brands.

not claiming that MBL is wrong for their speaker and the wire they use. just we cannot use this as more than a data point. it is not nothing, but not THE answer either.

 

[Amir]

MBL speakers have a jumper setting that don't change the crossover, they just change a piece of cable internally, smooth is solid copper, neutral is stranded copper and extra treble/fast is silver. View attachment 134569

I do not know what is this jumper setting but if your comment is correct then only this Ridiculous jumper setting in MBL is enough to believe there is no smart designer in their company.

 

[Holmz]

I do not know what is this jumper setting but if your comment is correct then only this Ridiculous jumper setting in MBL is enough to believe there is no smart designer in their company.

If the positions actually do something that one can hear…
We cannot see if there is other stuff inside the box, other than wires.
(It would not surprise me if there were some passive devices.)

 

[Lagonda]

If the positions actually do something that one can hear…
We cannot see if there is other stuff inside the box, other than wires.
(It would not surprise me if there were some passive devices.)

No i have had the crossover open, it is like they write in the manual, just different wires. They definitely affect the sound signature substantially, to be changed depending on amplifier signature or room acoustics. I prefer mine with attack in the bass, and natural in midrange treble settings.

 

[Lagonda]

I do not know what is this jumper setting but if your comment is correct then only this Ridiculous jumper setting in MBL is enough to believe there is no smart designer in their company.

Your opinions, mostly borrowed from others,like your blogs have little relevant meaning at this point !

 

[Atmasphere]

You are missing the big picture here and you are making no effort to understand what I am telling you.

I don't understand how you can be in my head, that's for sure. It might help to know that I tend to be very literal and actively try to not read something on the page that isn't there. I think I've done a pretty good job answering your inquiry but IMO its a pretty broad topic. So I've been chipping away at it. Perhaps you could be more specific? What is the big picture?

saying that they lost some of the high end sparkle.

'Sparkle' is one of those audiophile terms that always cause me to cringe. I don't think its something that exists in real life but that might be because I've never seen anything that describes what it actually means, so I imagine a visual sparkle on the highs. IOW some kind of emphasis.

How do you measure transparency?

How do you measure a sense of "dryness" or "wetness" in the midrange?

How do you measure what I call "breath of life" of vocals?

I'm not coming up, here, with exotic or esoteric sonic attributes. These are the sonic attributes I personally care most about.

Transparency is a function of low distortion, IOW it can't be transparent if distortion is high, since distortion obscures detail. Dryness is a lack of lower ordered harmonics being a bit unsuccessful at masking higher orders, with the higher orders tending more towards the 5th rather than the the 9th and above. IOW the harmonic spectra isn't right.
I still don't know what you mean with 'breath of life' even though you describes it once. Its not something I've heard anyone use. I hope you can flesh that out a bit.

 

[Amir]

Your opinions, mostly borrowed from others,like your blogs have little relevant meaning at this point !

You do not know me so please just talk about the subject.

Enjoy your MBL and change MBL jumpers for every music track.

 

[Amir]

Transparency is a function of low distortion, IOW it can't be transparent if distortion is high, since distortion obscures detail.

No, 100% wrong,
Read about comparison by contrast method