Neutral power amp recommendations?

[Atmasphere]

Just out of curiosity, how do you prove this exactly?

Do you mean how did I figure this out or how can it be demonstrated? Or how is an argument won on the internet? All very different ways of looking at this question

So, people in the Middle Ages believed they would have known if the world was spherical, not flat. Similarly, physicists thought Newton's laws could explain the movements of light and subatomic particles until quantum mechanics proved them wrong.

If measurements alone capture everything we hear, then why do well-measuring Class D amps still sound terrible?

Again, the knowledge of what the measurements are telling us are not well understood. The reason any amp, not just a class D, can measure well but sound bad is explained by the venerable Daniel von Recklinghausen :

If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing."

In the case of the alleged class D, what measurements were shown looked pretty 'good' (which is clearly open to interpretation) according to you. I'm guessing not enough of the measurements were shown and I've found that quite often even the people doing the measurements don't know what they imply. This knowledge is even more lacking in the marketplace!

I used the prior example of John Atkinson measuring the MBL amplifier as an example. Clearly he didn't understand what it means when distortion rises with frequency. I don't really expect that of him since he's not known for amplifiers he designed. I have been saying here what that measurement means (whether anyone wants to take advantage of that is another matter...). Go and look at the measurements of the alleged class D amp and see if that one shows up.

 

[hopkins]

Do you mean how did I figure this out or how can it be demonstrated?

Whichever. It's not a question of "winning or losing an argument". You claim something, which is important (you even put it in italics in your post), so please let us know how you back it up.

 

[Atmasphere]

Whichever. It's not a question of "winning or losing an argument". You claim something, which is important (you even put it in italics in your post), so please let us know how you back it up.

Well we all know about the measurements. We also know about listening. So this isn't rocket science. What I found is that there are several factors that contribute to a good sounding amplifier and they are universal.

Some of this I learned from texts, such as those of Norman Crowhurst, Peter Baxandall and Bruno Putzeys, all beyond reproach in their fields. So I worked with the concepts that seemed to emerge from these authors and built circuits to test the ideas out. Of course it didn't all come from just those authors. When I state that there was something of interest in the Radiotron Designer's Handbook, its because I have a copy of it.

IOW I'm not the first to make some of these claims. But it does seem I'm one of the very few who does so interacting with audiophiles on audio forums.

So that's another way of interpreting the question and providing an answer. Do you need more?

 

[hopkins]

Well we all know about the measurements. We also know about listening. So this isn't rocket science. What I found is that there are several factors that contribute to a good sounding amplifier and they are universal.

Some of this I learned from texts, such as those of Norman Crowhurst, Peter Baxandall and Bruno Putzeys, all beyond reproach in their fields. So I worked with the concepts that seemed to emerge from these authors and built circuits to test the ideas out. Of course it didn't all come from just those authors. When I state that there was something of interest in the Radiotron Designer's Handbook, its because I have a copy of it.

IOW I'm not the first to make some of these claims. But it does seem I'm one of the very few who does so interacting with audiophiles on audio forums.

So that's another way of interpreting the question and providing an answer. Do you need more?

Ok, so in your experience, improvements in some metrics are correlated with your subjective impressions. I think most audio engineers will say the same.

You are the one trying to "win arguments". But you should realize that few people really care about "the best measuring gear" - those who really do are on ASR buying 1000$ amps

 

[Atmasphere]

Ok, so in your experience, improvements in some metrics are correlated with your subjective impressions. I think most audio engineers will say the same.

You are the one trying to "win arguments". But you should realize that few people really care about "the best measuring gear" - those who really do are on ASR buying 1000$ amps

IMO, the ASR crowd represents a minority in the audio world.

My proof of this is brick and mortar stores rely on subjective experiences- ones that are easily repeatable. They would be entirely unnecessary if spec sheets told the whole story and since longer than I've been alive, they haven't.

As a result we have measurements that 'look good' but sweep a lot of dirt under the carpet. This biggest sinner in this department is THD, because it doesn't tell how how much distortion is really there since it ignores distortion rise with frequency.

IME, most of the people on ASR do not understand how to tell if an amplifier (for example) measures well. This missing bit is its not important that it measures well for the spec sheet. What's important is that it measure well for the ear (which is why I like to quote Mr von Recklinghausen). Often these are the same thing and often they are not.

I see a distinction between winning arguments vs attempting to inform. The former does not require you even be correct! Winning arguments is often about trying to make the other wrong regardless of reality.

 

[hopkins]

IMO, the ASR crowd represents a minority in the audio world.

My proof of this is brick and mortar stores rely on subjective experiences- ones that are easily repeatable. They would be entirely unnecessary if spec sheets told the whole story and since longer than I've been alive, they haven't.

As a result we have measurements that 'look good' but sweep a lot of dirt under the carpet. This biggest sinner in this department is THD, because it doesn't tell how how much distortion is really there since it ignores distortion rise with frequency.

IME, most of the people on ASR do not understand how to tell if an amplifier (for example) measures well. This missing bit is its not important that it measures well for the spec sheet. What's important is that it measure well for the ear (which is why I like to quote Mr von Recklinghausen). Often these are the same thing and often they are not.

I see a distinction between winning arguments vs attempting to inform. The former does not require you even be correct! Winning arguments is often about trying to make the other wrong regardless of reality.

You are missing the big picture here and you are making no effort to understand what I am telling you.