Neutral power amp recommendations?

[metei]

Hi everyone,

I’m back after my DAC journey post and I’m now looking for a power amp recommendation.

In short, I’m looking for something more neutral without being cold or analytical. Important to have a low noise floor and to sound good at low volumes (in my experience some amps need to be cranked up to hear what they’re capable of).

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc. I originally architected my system around a ‘warmer’ sound but have come more recently to appreciate neutrality and transparency.

Edit: Also forgot to mention, looking for solid state, not tubes. And price would be under $30k.

Current setup
Source: Innuos Pulsar
DAC + volume control: Playback Designs MPD-8
Speakers: Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand Reference (90db, 4ohm)
Power: Transparent Powerwave
Cabling: Various, no single loom (yet). Have Raven Audio, Transparent, Wireworld, FTA, Inakustik, Acoustic Revive

Thanks in advance!

Hi V,
My two cents here; I think You have a little dilemma here, that's why You've asked WBF. Due to Your tinnitus and high frequency sensitivity, the amplifiers You would consider High-End would not suit You and what would suit You better are not considered high-end by many. What I have experienced is that; the better the amplifier gets, the more open in the highs it becomes, which means, if there is information on the high frequency range, the amplifiers conveys it; to be exact; whichever frequency there is information the amplifier conveys it. So I would recommend You opt for more a "warm / musical" amplifiers, than a "natural" ones.
So, from my own experience absolutely not Gryphon old models (Antileon etc.), they are all harsh. New series are commented to be more natural but haven't had first hand experience, only dealer/ show experience. As many commented, when You say "natural" first names to pop up are European and more specifically Swiss amplifiers; CH, Soulution, Nagra.. From these three, Soulution might suit Your condition best in my experience both first hand / dealer show demos mixed. In case of CH; A1.5 would be way better than M1.1 for Your case.
What I would recommend more in Your case would be Accuphase > Luxman = McIntosh. They are to my ears, more natural than the regular US amplifiers (Dan, Krell..) but slightly more rolled off in the highs (I guess because the Japanese design philosophy leans slightly less high frequency domain due to their roots in big horn speakers). If I was to chose just one amplifier for You, it would be McIntosh MC 462. Mc's are strong in low-mid band; which means You would easily saturate Your room with low & mids so would turn the volume slightly less i.e. less highs. Side note: Pass Labs especially the former .5 series might be for You but that's a very close call. Also; You can easily try the Accuphase sound to hear if it suits You. No need to go for a big, flagship power amplifier at first. Any integrated amplifier (even older ones) above 4 series, 5 series and special edition ones would perform over 90 % their dedicated power amplifiers would do (2xx and 3xx series Accuphase would not perform in-line with the rest of Your system). Between purchase and selling of one You wouldn't lose few hundred bucks or many local dealers have them in numbers waiting to be sold second hand, one You have good communication with, would happily consign You one.
What I would recommend though is; definitely stay away from silver cables and go for all copper. The better quality copper cables (Transparent and Kubala Sosna in my case) would suit Your case better. Silver cables tend to 'shine' the highs, when that's what one is looking for.
Happy listening..

 

[Argonaut]

Yes i get why Aries Cerat is such a hard sell !

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=mbl



https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=aries+cerat





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[Lagonda]

I agree that personal preference, perception of natural sound, and interpretation of timbre and tonality vary among individuals.

We're not discussing Aries Cerat. I suppose I struck a nerve when I commented on MBL and shared my personal opinion.

Aries Cerat practically sells itself once people hear it.

And plenty of people should have heard it by now, you can't trow a burned out tube away without hitting a Aries Cerat dealer, you guys are like tupperware salesmen !

 

[Phantom-Audio]

And plenty of people should have heard it by now, you can't trow a burned out tube away without hitting a Aries Cerat dealer, you guys are like tupperware salesmen !

It seems like my simple comment struck a chord with you, resonating deeply within you on a matter you may find difficult to acknowledge. I want to clarify that I am not promoting Aries Cerat in this thread or to you, as I have no intention of selling to someone that would buy a MBL. Your response seems to be more of a direct attack rather than fostering a constructive discussion.

I choose not to participate in negativity. There appears to be a concerning tone here, and I hope you are content with MBL. If you are not, I encourage you to seek out a suitable support resource that can provide psychological assistance to help alleviate any distress your currently undergoing.

As a representative of several brands, why target Aries Cerat with criticism?

Peace!

 

[Lagonda]

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=mbl



https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=aries+cerat





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Yes you have to actually sell something to real customers before it can hit the used market, not just advertise it on internet forums.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

Yes you have to actually sell something to real customers before it can hit the used market, not just advertise it on internet forums.

These links do not belong to me, and I am uncertain why you are launching direct attacks instead of fostering a constructive discussion. It is common for audio equipment to be exchanged in the used market. I fail to grasp your point here. Nevertheless, if you are experiencing emotional stress, I recommend seeking help.

 

[Argonaut]

MBL make almost everything in-house, not at the local machine shop like so many other smaller brands. Their own CNC machines, drivers made by craftsmen designed, patented and hand assembled by themself, not outsourced to some commercial driver plant. A impressive operation.

Like a Trabant ? Also hand crafted in Germany

 

[Lagonda]

These links do not belong to me, and I am uncertain why you are launching direct attacks instead of fostering a constructive discussion. It is common for audio equipment to be exchanged in the used market. I fail to grasp your point here. Nevertheless, if you are experiencing emotional stress, I recommend seeking help.

Another Aries Cerat dealer had posted the links, i was answering him ! You guys are everywhere.

 

[Lagonda]

Like a Trabant ? Also hand crafted in Germany

That was East Germany !

 

[Phantom-Audio]

Another Aries Cerat dealer had posted the links, i was answering him ! You guys are everywhere.

Then we are omnipresent, this stuff is food for the gods jokes Aside. Do take care.

 

[Lagonda]

Then we are omnipresent, this stuff is food for the gods jokes Aside. Do take care.

Same to you ! Just teasing about Aries Cerat, i would probably love it if i heard it, i am sure it is excellent.

 

[Atmasphere]

my problem with high feedback complex ss amplifiers is about their dynamics

Dynamics comes from the signal, not the amp. I think you are reacting to how the amp made distortion rather than dynamics.

However, after a minute or so, the sound seems (to me) to be hyper-etched, sharp/harsh, lacking realness. It is then I make for the door.

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. When higher ordered harmonics are not masked (IOW, audible) even though they can be in tiny amounts its not pleasant!

MBL amps sound neutral with MBL speakers. They have a small hump at midrange where MBL speakers have a small dip.

This statement is false. First, MBL amps measure perfectly flat across the audio band. Second, the MBL speakers don't have a dip in the midrange, although the midrange driver is 8 Ohms while the rest of the speaker is 4 Ohms. But the output impedance of the MBL amp is so low that this is of no consequence. IOW how they work together is not based on synergy.

The MBL speakers need a lot of power in the mid-bass, something most amps just can't deliver.

This statement is false as well. Our MA-2s drive the 101s nicely in that range and they only make 200 Watts.

Yes you can always dull down the high frequencies with some tubes if the sound is to honest/ bright for your taste.

Most tube amps I've seen have bandwidth well beyond audibility. I have a little 5 Watt amp that is full power well past 100KHz. The reason tube amps seem to have less high frequency energy is entirely due to less unmasked higher ordered harmonic distortion. IOW its not a frequency response error; its how higher ordered harmonics are interpreted by the ear as brightness. I'm guessing you didn't read my prior post??

Please clarify. Are you saying MBL engineers are "lost" when they design their amplifiers and / or that you consider your amps to be more "neutral" than their product?

As an aside, I find it interesting that two competing manufacturers are apparently criticizing MBL on this thread. Am I mistaken? If true, I thought that was considered politically incorrect and unprofessional.

No, not saying they are 'lost', so yes you are mistaken. I merely pointed out a common problem with many solid state amp designs going back to the inception of the transistor. Someone provided a link to an MBL amp measurement which included a distortion vs frequency measurement. So I used that as an example of what this problem is. Here is a link that might help you to understand the issue I mentioned in my prior post.

Where do you get your number ? Made up, like all your other posts ! Sensitivity is not a direct expression of dynamics.

FWIW, there is a phenomena that affects speakers of lower efficiency called 'Thermal Compression'. This is where the voice coil heats up with energy and so being hotter, does not allow as much current to flow because its impedance is temporarily higher. This can happen so quickly that it can affect the impact of bass notes and the like. Higher efficiency speakers are well-known to reduce this phenomena. ESLs are practically immune to it.

Thermal compression cannot be cured by more power. That just heats the voice coil more. It can be reduced by venting the voice coil so it can get rid of heat but the only real solution is to go with higher efficiency of a means that does not heat up like the ESL principle.

Now all that said, its inaccurate to say MBL speakers are only 80dB!! That might be the measurement, which is taken from a microphone at 1 meter but we all know that MBLs are omnidirectional so most of the energy it makes is not picked up by the measurement mic. At worst, add 6dB to the measurement but I suspect its actually a bit higher than that as they are easily driven by a good tube amp although I recommend something 100 Watts or more in most rooms.

In case there's any question I've had a lot of direct exposure to MBL speakers through a local friend and also customers.

 

[Lagonda]

Dynamics comes from the signal, not the amp. I think you are reacting to how the amp made distortion rather than dynamics.

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. When higher ordered harmonics are not masked (IOW, audible) even though they can be in tiny amounts its not pleasant!

This statement is false. First, MBL amps measure perfectly flat across the audio band. Second, the MBL speakers don't have a dip in the midrange, although the midrange driver is 8 Ohms while the rest of the speaker is 4 Ohms. But the output impedance of the MBL amp is so low that this is of no consequence. IOW how they work together is not based on synergy.

This statement is false as well. Our MA-2s drive the 101s nicely in that range and they only make 200 Watts.


Most tube amps I've seen have bandwidth well beyond audibility. I have a little 5 Watt amp that is full power well past 100KHz. The reason tube amps seem to have less high frequency energy is entirely due to less unmasked higher ordered harmonic distortion. IOW its not a frequency response error; its how higher ordered harmonics are interpreted by the ear as brightness. I'm guessing you didn't read my prior post??

No, not saying they are 'lost', so yes you are mistaken. I merely pointed out a common problem with many solid state amp designs going back to the inception of the transistor. Someone provided a link to an MBL amp measurement which included a distortion vs frequency measurement. So I used that as an example of what this problem is. Here is a link that might help you to understand the issue I mentioned in my prior post.


FWIW, there is a phenomena that affects speakers of lower efficiency called 'Thermal Compression'. This is where the voice coil heats up with energy and so being hotter, does not allow as much current to flow because its impedance is temporarily higher. This can happen so quickly that it can affect the impact of bass notes and the like. Higher efficiency speakers are well-known to reduce this phenomena. ESLs are practically immune to it.

Thermal compression cannot be cured by more power. That just heats the voice coil more. It can be reduced by venting the voice coil so it can get rid of heat but the only real solution is to go with higher efficiency of a means that does not heat up like the ESL principle.

Now all that said, its inaccurate to say MBL speakers are only 80dB!! That might be the measurement, which is taken from a microphone at 1 meter but we all know that MBLs are omnidirectional so most of the energy it makes is not picked up by the measurement mic. At worst, add 6dB to the measurement but I suspect its actually a bit higher than that as they are easily driven by a good tube amp although I recommend something 100 Watts or more in most rooms.

In case there's any question I've had a lot of direct exposure to MBL speakers through a local friend and also customers.

A few customers used big VAC and VTL on their MBL 101E's they said it sounded great, but the tubes kept blowing !

 

[Atmasphere]

A few customers used big VAC and VTL on their MBL 102E's they said it sounded great, but the tubes kept blowing !

That can be for any number of reasons- without knowing more all anyone could do is speculate. But it could be as simple as not using durable tubes.

 

[DasguteOhr]

The Technics SE R1 power amp offers an interesting concept: a completely feedback-free digital GANFET amplifier. I only heard it briefly and it sounded excellent.

Technics SE-R1

Blog High-Fidelity Stereo. Vintage Audio and Hi-Fi Equipment, info, specifications, descriptions,

stereonomono.blogspot.com

 

[mtemur]

This statement is false. First, MBL amps measure perfectly flat across the audio band. Second, the MBL speakers don't have a dip in the midrange, although the midrange driver is 8 Ohms while the rest of the speaker is 4 Ohms. But the output impedance of the MBL amp is so low that this is of no consequence. IOW how they work together is not based on synergy.

Oh, wonderful. I had no idea that measurements tell us everything about speakers and amps. I guess we no longer need our ears to evaluate and can just toss them out the window now. Great info!

 

[Atmasphere]

Oh, wonderful. I had no idea that measurements tell us everything about speakers and amps. I guess we no longer need our ears to evaluate and can just toss them out the window now. Great info!

In case you missed it, I've been pointing out the direct link between what we hear and what we measure on this thread. Your explanation that the amps have a hump when they don't was problematic. If on the other hand you said that they 'sound' like they have a hump that would be a different matter, since distortion manifests as tonality to the ear. But I don't buy that since this is a pretty low distortion amp and its distortion does not begin to rise until about 1KHz, so unmasked (IOW, audible) distortion product would be more in what we consider the treble range, similar to other amps that measure in this fashion. IOW its apparent 'emphasis' would be higher than the midrange.

Many people think we can't measure what we can hear or something to that effect. That was true years ago but isn't now. What's severely lacking is the understanding of what the measurements are telling us. For example most people don't think that distortion rising at 1KHz is any big deal. But if you hear an amp that doesn't do that you realize pretty quickly that it is. Measurement technology, just like any other tech, has been quietly marching alone quite successfully in the last 30 years. So that old saw about how we can hear things we can't measure simply is no longer true.

Practically speaking though, life won't be a lot different if you live it according to the older story, since most of the time the measurements needed aren't published if they are even made. I have this hypothesis that many manufacturers prefer the spec sheet to not show you how the equipment actually sounds....

 

[hopkins]

So that old saw about how we can hear things we can't measure simply is no longer true.

Just out of curiosity, how do you prove this exactly?

 

[mtemur]

Measurement technology, just like any other tech, has been quietly marching alone quite successfully in the last 30 years. So that old saw about how we can hear things we can't measure simply is no longer true.

So, people in the Middle Ages believed they would have known if the world was spherical, not flat. Similarly, physicists thought Newton's laws could explain the movements of light and subatomic particles until quantum mechanics proved them wrong.

If measurements alone capture everything we hear, then why do well-measuring Class D amps still sound terrible?

 

[steve59]

I found a Krell integrated to pair up very well with my VA Beethovens and if there's a way you could get a home demo you might agree.