Neutral power amp recommendations?

[Lagonda]

There's nothing wrong with that unless the distortion rises with frequency, which is very common in solid state amps (in which case I agree). So I suspect it does in this case too since every MBL system I've heard sounded bright. I know its not the speakers since I've heard them with amps I know aren't bright.

If you look at the measurements linked above they show I'm right. Distortion begins to rise at about 1KHz (very common turnover point BTW). This cause higher ordered harmonics (such as the 7th harmonic of 1KHz) to be unmasked (IOW, audible). The ear converts distortion to tonality, so this adds a bit of brightness and harshness to the presentation. Apparently Atkinson, like so many others, didn't understand the implication of this measurement.

This is such a common problem that people have come to assume that high feedback is the problem, when really its distortion rising with frequency. That happens because the feedback and the gain of the amp (together called 'loop gain') are not both supported by the Gain Bandwidth Product the amp makes. So in a secondary sort of way, if the feedback were reduced it might be possible to find a value where distortion no longer rises, which makes for a much more listenable amplifier.

If an amplifier is bright and/or harsh, that cannot be construed as neutral. Its a coloration. The fact that this can be caused by very low amounts of higher ordered harmonics seems lost on many designers (and audiophiles for that matter). There is a weighting system for assigning various harmonics the amount of audibility they have. Oddly, this bit was understood back in the 1930s (see the Radiotron Designer's Guide 3rd edition, chapter 5)) and somehow seems lost today.

Yes you can always dull down the high frequencies with some tubes if the sound is to honest/ bright for your taste. That being said, i find the treble of these amps very extended but also somehow forgiving at the same time, a rare quality.

 

[Holmz]

Yes you can always dull down the high frequencies with some tubes if the sound is to honest/ bright for your taste. That being said, i find the treble of these amps very extended but also somehow forgiving at the same time, a rare quality.

How does ^that^ work?

If the amp is too bright, and dishonest, then we roll off the higher end?
If it is harmonics, from a lower frequency, I am not that works in an ideal sense.

 

[Lagonda]

How does ^that^ work?

If the amp is too bright, and dishonest, then we roll off the higher end?
If it is harmonics, from a lower frequency, I am not that works in an ideal sense.

Some people just love the warm fuzziness of tubes and want everything to sound that way. Good amps show what is on the recording, even if it is bright, i don't give much credit to Ralphs tech talk about harmonics, never really liked the sound of OTL either.

 

[Holmz]

Some people just love the warm fuzziness of tubes and want everything to sound that way.

Tubes are also used in RF, so it is not like the tubes are slow by their nature in some way like a cruise ship can be compared to a speedboat.

Good amps show what is on the recording, even if it is bright,

If it is adding stuff, then how can we say it is showing… “what is on the recording”?
It is showing harmonics of what was on the recording.

I assume that we can agree that the sound we like best may not be as pure as “a wire with gain”.
The added euphonics can be engaging, but it’s not exactly High-fidelity.

i don't give much credit to Ralphs tech talk about harmonics, never really liked the sound of OTL either.

Well higher harmonic distortion does seem to correlate with a system sounding louder, with the same measured SPL.
I am not sure that a warm preamp, seasoning a bright amp, in an attempt to arrive at neutrality, is the same just neutral equipment down the chain.

At some point it is like finding that the vinegar made the food sour, so we chuck in a handful of sugar to balance it out.
I suppose sweet-n-sour pork is still pork, but it is not the same as a roast ham.
Sure it might taste good, and it might be preferred, but it is not bland

But adding sauerkraut or mustard to ham is pretty routine, so I guess that spicing up the sound, to suit one’s taste, is also pretty routine.

It just does NOT fit the thread theme of “Neutral Power Amp”.

 

[Lagonda]

Tubes are also used in RF, so it is not like the tubes are slow by their nature in some way like a cruise ship can be compared to a speedboat.


If it is adding stuff, then how can we say it is showing… “what is on the recording”?
It is showing harmonics of what was on the recording.

I assume that we can agree that the sound we like best may not be as pure as “a wire with gain”.
The added euphonics can be engaging, but it’s not exactly High-fidelity.


Well higher harmonic distortion does seem to correlate with a system sounding louder, with the same measured SPL.
I am not sure that a warm preamp, seasoning a bright amp, in an attempt to arrive at neutrality, is the same just neutral equipment down the chain.

At some point it is like finding that the vinegar made the food sour, so we chuck in a handful of sugar to balance it out.
I suppose sweet-n-sour pork is still pork, but it is not the same as a roast ham.
Sure it might taste good, and it might be preferred, but it is not bland

But adding sauerkraut or mustard to ham is pretty routine, so I guess that spicing up the sound, to suit one’s taste, is also pretty routine.

It just does NOT fit the thread theme of “Neutral Power Amp”.

MBL's are not adding stuff, they are pretty neutral sounding, most tube amps are adding something. And a lot of people like it, i don't particularly care for or need it in my system.

 

[Argonaut]

Yes you can always dull down the high frequencies with some tubes if the sound is to honest/ bright for your taste.

Some people just love the warm fuzziness of tubes and want everything to sound that way.

Like Lamm amplification I presume ?

 

[Amir]

There's nothing wrong with that unless the distortion rises with frequency, which is very common in solid state amps (in which case I agree). So I suspect it does in this case too since every MBL system I've heard sounded bright. I know its not the speakers since I've heard them with amps I know aren't bright.

If you look at the measurements linked above they show I'm right. Distortion begins to rise at about 1KHz (very common turnover point BTW). This cause higher ordered harmonics (such as the 7th harmonic of 1KHz) to be unmasked (IOW, audible). The ear converts distortion to tonality, so this adds a bit of brightness and harshness to the presentation. Apparently Atkinson, like so many others, didn't understand the implication of this measurement.

This is such a common problem that people have come to assume that high feedback is the problem, when really its distortion rising with frequency. That happens because the feedback and the gain of the amp (together called 'loop gain') are not both supported by the Gain Bandwidth Product the amp makes. So in a secondary sort of way, if the feedback were reduced it might be possible to find a value where distortion no longer rises, which makes for a much more listenable amplifier.

If an amplifier is bright and/or harsh, that cannot be construed as neutral. Its a coloration. The fact that this can be caused by very low amounts of higher ordered harmonics seems lost on many designers (and audiophiles for that matter). There is a weighting system for assigning various harmonics the amount of audibility they have. Oddly, this bit was understood back in the 1930s (see the Radiotron Designer's Guide 3rd edition, chapter 5)) and somehow seems lost today.

I agree some ss amplifiers have alittle harder texture (less velvet) and their tonal balance is not perfect neutral across 20-20khz but my problem with high feedback complex ss amplifiers is about their dynamics , for example old Mark Levinson amplifiers like NO.383 to my ears are dead in micro dynamics.
One important aspects of Live Music in my idea is about “energy” “liveness” “micro dynamics” but I never find it in high feedback complex ss amplifiers.

 

[Amir]

Or are just well dimensioned for massive power delivery when called upon. You have never heard the big MBL amps on a big electrostatic system with many light/fast paper drivers for the low end, like the Martin Logan Statements.

They do certain things really well, but it is definitely a polarizing experience, some love them , others don't. Just like horn speakers. When it comes to tone, i prefer my electrostatic setup. MBL's are very sensitive to placement, not as forgiving as horns. Most MBL setups i have heard or seen, where in rooms to small for them, with to much shit placed between the speakers.

Maybe Martin Logan , Planars, Quads, Manger speakers all are ok for price range but non of them are perfect for both dynamics and harmonics.

Natural Tone/harmonics comes from simple/minimal designs like dynamic driver speakers not complex systems like MBL.

 

[Amir]

I do not care if MBL is bright or sweet or warm or neutral or extended or … I think in right setup MBL is not bright or …
The problem is MBL is not dynamic and natural. If you want judge MBL system you should use “comparison by contrast” method.

Admin closed my topic about Audio Critique , I can continue this discussion there

 

[treitz3]

Come again?

Tom

 

[Argonaut]

Maybe Martin Logan , Planars, Quads, Manger speakers all are ok for price range but non of them are perfect for both dynamics and harmonics.

Natural Tone/harmonics comes from simple/minimal designs like dynamic driver speakers not complex systems like MBL.

Extreme dynamics I will give you *But* harmonics nope , harmonics are one of the elements of transducing music that for example Quad 57’s do very well .

 

[Stevet]

Hi everyone,

I’m back after my DAC journey post and I’m now looking for a power amp recommendation.

In short, I’m looking for something more neutral without being cold or analytical. Important to have a low noise floor and to sound good at low volumes (in my experience some amps need to be cranked up to hear what they’re capable of).

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc. I originally architected my system around a ‘warmer’ sound but have come more recently to appreciate neutrality and transparency.

Edit: Also forgot to mention, looking for solid state, not tubes. And price would be under $30k.

Thanks in advance!

If you are still looking for a good solid state amp under $30,000 (I assume new), what about considering the Luxman M-10X?

 

[Stevet]

Hi everyone,

I’m back after my DAC journey post and I’m now looking for a power amp recommendation.

In short, I’m looking for something more neutral without being cold or analytical. Important to have a low noise floor and to sound good at low volumes (in my experience some amps need to be cranked up to hear what they’re capable of).

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc. I originally architected my system around a ‘warmer’ sound but have come more recently to appreciate neutrality and transparency.

Edit: Also forgot to mention, looking for solid state, not tubes. And price would be under $30k.

Thanks in advance!

PS, as the Luxman lists for $19,995 and you can probably get a 10% cash discount, you could use the rest of the $30,000 to upgrade and unify your cabling, which would probably make a significant improvement in your system.

 

[Amir]

Come again?

Tom

My topic is not open for further replies.

I think the topic Closed without any reason.

 

[Rensselaer]

I don't typically listen to audiophile music, but I do appreciate the quality of recordings during demos. Not all tube amplifiers or hybrids can guarantee an authentic sound; many tend to color the sound heavily, which appeals to certain audiences. Personally, I prefer a balanced sound that encompasses resolution, dynamics, tonality, sheer control, bass presence in the room, and an open and effortless soundstage.

Some brands, like CH and a few others, may sound too lean and lifeless. While audiophile recordings may sound impeccable on these systems, issues become apparent when experimenting with different music genres and recordings. The lean or analytical sound characteristic of these setups is less forgiving, and discrepancies can quickly make the listening experience uncomfortable.

I too often find the sound of “audiophile” music played at hi fi shows uncomfortable to listen to after a short while.

At first one is drawn to these rooms because of the dynamics of the recordings (I am remembering one of sudden loud clear drum rim whacks with tinkling bells shimmering in the background) because they are dynamic and crystal clear. However, after a minute or so, the sound seems (to me) to be hyper-etched, sharp/harsh, lacking realness. It is then I make for the door.

Whether the amplification in those rooms is solid state or hollow state, one common denominator is always present. Whenever that type of presentation has driven me out of the room, I note that the source, and without fail it was being played on a digital front end. Oh, I get bored with plenty of systems playing vinyl as well but have only been driven out by those playing those digital “audiophile” recordings.

I fear that the OP might not be able to put together a satisfying system with a solid state amp., one that sounds musical at low volume, without harshness, while using a digital front end.

 

[mtemur]

MBL amps sound neutral with MBL speakers. They have a small hump at midrange where MBL speakers have a small dip. I don’t think distortion figures directly relate with brilliance or harshness. Halcro DM 38 or DM 58 regarded as a very low distortion amplifier but I found them sounding like cardboard, lifeless, boring as well as most class D amplifiers. Whether it’s solid state or tubes you find as neutral amp is a personal preference from my point of view but I don’t think class D cannot trump either of them against all advertisements here with low distortion rhetoric.

 

[A-Line]

MBL amps sound neutral with MBL speakers. They have a small hump at midrange where MBL speakers have a small dip. I don’t think distortion figures directly relate with brilliance or harshness. Halcro DM 38 or DM 658 regarded as a very low distortion amplifier but I found them sounding like cardboard, lifeless, boring as well as most class D amplifiers. Whether it’s solid state or tubes you find as neutral amp is a personal preference from my point of view but I don’t think class D cannot trump either of them against all advertisements here with low distortion rhetoric.

Is Halcro even still in business? The glossy mags loved their amp/preamp offerings.
I remember looking at these at a audio shop in 2006 and that they resembled a small file cabinet in appearance...
Sonically not very engaging, at least to me.

 

[facten]

Is Halcro even still in business? The glossy mags loved their amp/preamp offerings.
I remember looking at these at a audio shop in 2006 and that they resembled a small file cabinet in appearance...
Sonically not very engaging, at least to me

HALCRO

The world's only Super-Fidelity amplifiers

halcro.com

 

[A-Line]

HALCRO

The world's only Super-Fidelity amplifiers

halcro.com

Thanks for the link.

 

[Lagonda]

MBL amps sound neutral with MBL speakers. They have a small hump at midrange where MBL speakers have a small dip. I don’t think distortion figures directly relate with brilliance or harshness. Halcro DM 38 or DM 58 regarded as a very low distortion amplifier but I found them sounding like cardboard, lifeless, boring as well as most class D amplifiers. Whether it’s solid state or tubes you find as neutral amp is a personal preference from my point of view but I don’t think class D cannot trump either of them against all advertisements here with low distortion rhetoric.

The MBL speakers need a lot of power in the mid-bass, something most amps just can't deliver. Some find MBL bright, some ,like you, think they have an emphasis on the midrange, to me a good sign of a neutral amp, cables can make a lot of difference. The ultra resolving/bright cables that some like on other speakers don't sound good with MBL, high quality copper cables sound good in my system, silver is too bright. MBL voice with the regular WireWorld cables, not the pricy stuff. I have not heard a class D amp i liked the sound of either.