Neutral power amp recommendations?

[andromedaaudio]

98 % of Solid state amps arent neutral.
Controlled sound isnt neutral.

Roy gregory wrote it nicely in his VTL s 400 mk 2 review .

The power to grip and the confidence to let go

 

[PhP]

Hi everyone,

I’m back after my DAC journey post and I’m now looking for a power amp recommendation.

In short, I’m looking for something more neutral without being cold or analytical. Important to have a low noise floor and to sound good at low volumes (in my experience some amps need to be cranked up to hear what they’re capable of).

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db). Want to stay away from anything hyper detailed, dry, analytical, etc. I originally architected my system around a ‘warmer’ sound but have come more recently to appreciate neutrality and transparency.

Edit: Also forgot to mention, looking for solid state, not tubes. And price would be under $30k.

Current setup
Source: Innuos Pulsar
DAC + volume control: Playback Designs MPD-8
Speakers: Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand Reference (90db, 4ohm)
Power: Transparent Powerwave
Cabling: Various, no single loom (yet). Have Raven Audio, Transparent, Wireworld, FTA, Inakustik, Acoustic Revive

Thanks in advance!

Hi

Apurna™ Prélude in amplifier only version (integrated version available). Better than everything I tried for 2 years even at twice the cost, at customers audio room. I spend my weeks to sell used amplifiers from other brands.
Stereo model: 150w @8ohm, 300W @4ohm.
Very transparent, fast and detailed, ultra dynamic. Tones are neutral, never cold. I use it with PLAYBACK MPD-8.

Apurna | PHPAUDIO

www.phpaudio.fr

available for CEE, on request for USA.

PhP

 

[Amir]

amplifier speaker matching is very very critical.
if your speaker efficiency is ok for 100w amplifier then I think zero feedback Class A solidstate amplifiers are better.
this is my Class A SS list :
Vitus Audio SM-103
Lamm M1.2
Riviera Labs AFM-100 SE
Robert Koda 160

 

[yyzSB]

My definition of a neutral amp is the Benchmark AHB2. I no longer have that amp, but it was a fav of mine. Another amp that was in the same zip code of the AHB2's neutral sound was the SimAudio 860A V2. I was hoping to hear the replacement for the 860A V2 last Friday, the Sim Audio North Collection. Unfortunately, the audio store I dropped in on had closed early.

I currently use a CODA #16 amp that I like a lot. I have seen online posts describing it as a neutral amp. From my perspective it is a slightly warm Class A amp.

 

[Porsche]

burmester
gryphon

 

[Imperial]

Hmmm…
@Dustin Symanski I assume that your S202 would match very Good with the MPD-8 dacs output stage.

What setting on the input would you choose?

Also, The MPD-8 would not be to far of sonically
From MSB stable mates sonically?

what signal cable from Dac to Amp do you most often find best, say when sibilance must not be an issue.? ( I’m thinking it is more for OP an issue of toe in or placement or such things - the loudspeaker. But you may have come across it since neutral implies reproduced truthfully anything. More - it is in the recording, or not)

It is the Word HERE right, neutral, jump and Dynamics but no sibilance at 50db.
It is a tall order. But signal cable to Amp must be also a factor…

I still think that the loudspeaker is not ideal.
As seen on the web at least, one model keeps being mentioned again and again
Graham Audio BBC LS5/5f for playback down to 55/50db with no percieved detriment.
But, that is the same price as the Amp… close to at least.

So If MSB ever decided to demo at a show with said loudspeaker… just saying.

 

[thedudeabides]

98 % of Solid state amps arent neutral.

What SS amp brands meet your criteria for your 2% "neutral" category?

 

[andromedaaudio]

What SS amp brands meet your criteria for your 2% "neutral" category?

FM acoustics, Viola labs , R koda

 

[sbo6]

Luxman, CH Precision, Audionet all on the edge of slightly warm. Luxman is 1/2 step down in sonic clarity, details, etc, Audionet and Ch very close based on price.

 

[thedudeabides]

FM acoustics, Viola labs , R koda

Thanks for the info. One wonders if there will ever be consensus on this issue. Seems very unlikely given all the variables in play.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Thanks for the info. One wonders if there will ever be consensus on this issue. Seems very unlikely given all the variables in play.

I m afraid never
Why do you need consensus ?
You dont need consensus to enjoy music

 

[thedudeabides]

Why do you need consensus ?

I don't, just asking. I know people like to fight on this forum. I'm not one of them. So please stop the unnecessary, aggressive BS.

 

[andromedaaudio]

@ dudababies

Ok i will put you on ignore .
You re the first ever

 

[Lagonda]

I don't, just asking. I know people like to fight on this forum. I'm not one of them. So please stop the unnecessary, aggressive BS.

What part of his posts seem aggressive to you ? He comes over as a mellow guy to me. Asking why you need consensus on amplification is fair, and more of a everything goes remark. Something you are normally a arbiter of.

 

[LL21]

FM acoustics, Viola labs , R koda

That is fascinating. You have heard quite a lot, do your own designs as well. And we have compared notes before.

I have heard FMA before and was extremely impressed…it was incredibly expensive and I just found the amps I tried 108 monos did not seem to have the raw power/drive I was looking for. But there really was a lot to like in the sound.

In fact, from your point about neutrality, I did find I learned a lot going from Gryphon to Robert Koda.

The amps I am intrigued by which I have not heard are the YS Audio from Japan and the Riviera.

 

[thedudeabides]

What part of his posts seem aggressive to you ? He comes over as a mellow guy to me. Asking why you need consensus on amplification is fair, and more of a everything goes remark. Something you are normally a arbiter of.

If you read my post (50), it should be pretty obvious that I dismiss the likelihood of a consensus on this topic. I may have overreacted but I found his response to be argumentative and dismissive. Sincere apologies if I misinterpreted his intent.

 

[andromedaaudio]

That is fascinating. You have heard quite a lot, do your own designs as well. And we have compared notes before.

I have heard FMA before and was extremely impressed…it was incredibly expensive and I just found the amps I tried 108 mon
os did not seem to have the raw power/drive I was looking for. But there really was a lot to like in the sound.

In fact, from your point about neutrality, I did find I learned a lot going from Gryphon to Robert Koda.

The amps I am intrigued by which I have not heard are the YS Audio from Japan and the Riviera.

If i hear some resemblance to rreal music i call it neutral .
What CAT and also FM has are attack and drive in the music ( call it instant dynamics whatever )

Which i find important.
Particalary with the big FM monos .

You should go to munich lloyd hear for yourself, its a great happening

 

[Imperial]

Lets recap a bit…

@vermaxis

He has in several threads detailed his journey.
Chosen a dac, Has Vienna ././. Models
Pathos Kratos amp and has very detailed written about the sound he is looking to have.
He has come to the conclusion he wants a neutral
Amp.
And as it seems, there is no ONE definition to what that is.

There is one clue…. Compared to the Pathos Kratos, it must be in the system neutral.

Must be powerfull, not incicive in the tweeter (the Kratos is rather lively there and the loudspeaker rises up to 10 kHz with vengance and with tinnitus one can understand that neutral means it must not be MORE incisive than a Kratos…
MPD-8!is the dac. Organic slightly warm and not known for hot treble…

There Are quite a lot of clues given…

Speakers - not neutral. Dac - not the (most neutral there is, as per say)

Cables:
Clues there too. None Are Hot and hyper detailed or strident.

Musical one could say.

So, a very Good job done by OP in giving lits of clues. Bravo!

What amp in all this context would «GEL» to a neutral, or more neutral presentation and come alive… read: Have jump factor from the ffirst watt.

It will have to be rather powerfull, have Good current, and be ‘Fast’ but not close to neutral like clinical…

So dampening factor might be a factor..,
Slew rate is important, transistor type… the list goes on.

I suggested MBL N21 because of what type of loudspeaker it is designed to drive originally.
Heavy load, inefficient need that omph Right from the start…

So, thats My analyses and reasoning behind it.

I could say that Rotel RB-1590 that can be had for dirt cheap possibly would do a Great job as well.
Will it be considered? I think not.
Would it be neutral? More neutral than a Pathos Kratos.
It has (RB-1590) 23db of gain into xlr allowing the DAC to use its powerfull outputstage and crank those volts out.
it has "just" 300 in dampening factor so it will not be to much of a grip on the woofers going down the herzess. (Mini Fletcher Munson anybody..)
The power to let go... Never heard it, but just looking at the specs... Current monster, a Rotel trait.
Resolution, no clue... but it is probable "enough" Right?
Just saying...


So as as demo idea. Surely there is something known to be not as beautiful and tubey as a Pathos out there. (The Pathis does not try to be neutral. It infuses beauty. It is a trait.

You just have to pick something and try it.
No one amp is always neutral in all context.
There is no such thing…

This is a sort of "Hello there" post... in a way... What is the actual mission?

‘General Kenobi is the alter ego of the unknown neutral perfect amp that brings order and solution…
Midiclorean count 30k ….

He jumps down in volume, speaks with confidence and is in controle … the droid buzz, is silenced…
IF you did not Get My Word play

 

[LL21]

If i hear some resemblance to rreal music i call it neutral .
What CAT and also FM has are attack and drive in the music ( call it instant dynamics whatever )

Which i find important.
Particalary with the big FM monos .

You should go to munich lloyd hear for yourself, its a great happening

Thanks...would definitely like to hear the big FM monos some day. Was very impressed by what I heard. On the one hand, I had never heard anything but superlatives from those who have heard FMA...particularly its alacrity, natural tonal qualities and again particularly its alacrity where (in the same way Roy Gregory describes the Berning Ref Monos and their ability to reveal inner workings of fingering, pauses, etc) you get a LOT of musical nuances with the FMA very naturally. On the other hand, the reputation of FMA was so legendary I was genuinely very very skeptical they would be as good as their reputation.

Turns out I genuinely liked them a lot, and felt their reputation has genuine merit. The FMA offers a lot to like in musical reproduction. The 108 monos just did not have the sheer grunt/power I was looking for (for the money)...but I could well imagine the larger FMA monos or the big reference stereo amp having that sheer power.

 

[Gregm]

Hi everyone,

I’m back after my DAC journey post and I’m now looking for a power amp recommendation.

In short, I’m looking for something more neutral without being cold or analytical. Important to have a low noise floor and to sound good at low volumes (in my experience some amps need to be cranked up to hear what they’re capable of).

OK, I'll bite. My recommendations are based on your information. They are not particularly trendy, but they should do the job:
Atma-sphere D-class monos
Benchmark monos
NAD M23 or March Audio monos (both offer good -i.e. high - current output capability)

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50db).

The devices above should allow that -- but keep in mind that for such low volume peaks, you'll need a "loudness" switch -- or listen (very) nearfield.
If however 50dB is an average SPL, you can site a bit further away.

By the way, harshness can be the mastering's fault - not the system's. You might wish to use DSP to bring down the area around 6-8kHz down a notch to be on the safe side...
Regards