Neutral power amp recommendations?
- Thread starter vermaxis
- Start date
I am in Canada and was able to demo the SimAudio North Collection 761 with the 791 preamp/DAC/streamer. I heard this gear with the Paradigm Persona 9H. I find the Persona's BE tweeter and midrange a bit harder edged than the Zylon drivers on my Yamaha NS5000. The Zylon are the best cone drivers I have ever heard. The Persona with Zylon drivers would be hard to top. The Persona lineup has lineage from the 1970's Yamaha NS1000 speaker, which was the first speaker to use BE in the tweeter and midrange.
With the Persona 9H, the 761 and was detailed, neutral, and almost non-fatiguing. A bit of hardness was there and that was what I attributed to the bit of fatigue I felt. This issue was almost certainly due to the BE drivers on the Persona. I have heard the Persona 5F with the older SimAudio 860 v2 and that had even more hardness to the sound. A Benchmark AHB2, a neutral king, would never have worked for me with a Persona. However, the 761 was very good with the Persona in spite of this nitpicky issue. Another issue was that I really did not test the bass response since the 9H have built-tin sub amps. The 9H have some incredible bass, mind-blowing really.
I think my CODA #16 amp, which is not neutral and has some Class A warmth to it, would be even better than the 761 on the 9H. However, for my Yamaha NS5000 speaker, I will be buying the 761 or the 861 North Collection amps. I will use the CODA #16 on my Magnepan LRS+ in my office. I will likely rotate the amps amongst my 2 systems.
Compared to the CODA #16 the 761 was more neutral, more detailed, and less warm. On my slightly warm NS5000 I think the 761 would be incredible, the #16 is already incredible with the NS5000, but the 761 would also be at that high level but with a different sonic character.
Now the question is do I get the 761 or the 861 for a lot more $$$.
This thread is interesting because it clearly demonstrates how everyone interprets sound in different ways. Garbage to one individual is someone else's treasure...
The most neutral and dynamic amp/preamp combo that I've experienced is some guy that built his own amp/preamp using mercury vapor tubes from the 1940's and brought it to a audio show that I attended. Those tubes were about as large as a flood light bulb...lol.
The 3D imaging was just amazing. Closed my eyes and it fooled my brain into thinking I was actually in the studio. He was using some modded open reel tape deck as a source.
I've since not experienced anything like that at any price point.
Auditioned DartZeel once and that sound was interesting...the sound was a bit colored and very hifi sounding. FM Acoustics was much better as was Boulder. Audio Note and Shindo also have a nice sound.
Nagra makes nice tape decks but their other components for home use do nothing for me with regards to music. Mostly lifeless and unengaging...
Just my opinions.
The most neutral and dynamic amp/preamp combo that I've experienced is some guy that built his own amp/preamp using mercury vapor tubes from the 1940's and brought it to a audio show that I attended. Those tubes were about as large as a flood light bulb...lol.
The 3D imaging was just amazing. Closed my eyes and it fooled my brain into thinking I was actually in the studio. He was using some modded open reel tape deck as a source.
I've since not experienced anything like that at any price point.
Auditioned DartZeel once and that sound was interesting...the sound was a bit colored and very hifi sounding. FM Acoustics was much better as was Boulder. Audio Note and Shindo also have a nice sound.
Nagra makes nice tape decks but their other components for home use do nothing for me with regards to music. Mostly lifeless and unengaging...
Just my opinions.
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The guy only spoke about the mercury vapor tubes which glowed purple. Feel free to expand upon and explain the missing puzzle pieces.
The trick to getting neutral sound that is not harsh is to make sure the distortion of the amp does not rise with frequency and that otherwise the distortion is low with proper distortion spectra such that the distortion is completely innocuous to the human ear.
Most traditional solid state amps are not capable of this so vintage amps even from the 1990s need not apply. There are very good class D amps available now that fit the bill and have a very good first Watt so no need to crank it up.
You did not mention the room size nor how lively it is or isn't, which will make a difference insofar as how much power you'll need.
Yes Indeed.
one of the designers that worked on the Dali Megaline project had a friend that made a 300w prototype Amp and I once had the pleasure of listening to it.
To this day it remains My best Amp ever…
It is a fluke… I dont think it ever was in production..
Sadly.. but I can still remember…
There Are Amps out there… one of a kind that dwarf Even the Playback Designs 1600w stereo Amp. That firmly I believe is the reigning best, that you can order, and purchase at present.
I firmly think that a truly neutral Amp is one designed and built custom… for a given Setup.
A do it all, simple means that the company or designer is a utter moron. (IF you make that claim..) Because it is not gonna be neutral in all contexts… My 2 cents
Hate this IF you want… but it is truth…
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My MBL 9011 amps are perfect, built for MBL speakers but amazing on ML Statement too.
In munich 2024 show I listened to complete MBL system. In my idea The tone and harmonics of expensive MBL system is not natural , they played live music to let us compare live un-amplified music vs MBL system so it was very clear that the sound was not close to music in this regard.My MBL 9011 amps are perfect, built for MBL speakers but amazing on ML Statement too.
I think the Tone/harmonics are important when you pay so much money, Many modern dynamic driver speakers use synthetic drivers (like fiber carbon in Wilson benesch and …) and I do not like the tone.
I also listened to MBL in Iran, I did not like that sound.
I think for trusted judgment I should listen to MBL in MBL factory not in show condition but I am not hopeful about these speakers.
Check MBL 9011 measurements in stereophile:
“The output impedance was very low, at 0.05 ohm at 1kHz “
This means MBL use high amount of negative feedback.
“The output impedance was very low, at 0.05 ohm at 1kHz “
This means MBL use high amount of negative feedback.
MBL is very hifi sounding same for DarTZeel.
In that price range CH Precision is quite good and so is Soulution.
Just my opinion.
Or are just well dimensioned for massive power delivery when called upon.Check MBL 9011 measurements in stereophile:
“The output impedance was very low, at 0.05 ohm at 1kHz “
This means MBL use high amount of negative feedback.
You have never heard the big MBL amps on a big electrostatic system with many light/fast paper drivers for the low end, like the Martin Logan Statements.They do certain things really well, but it is definitely a polarizing experience, some love them , others don't. Just like horn speakers.
When it comes to tone, i prefer my electrostatic setup. MBL's are very sensitive to placement, not as forgiving as horns. Most MBL setups i have heard or seen, where in rooms to small for them, with to much shit placed between the speakers.And i don't consider McIntosh high end, good enough for my Aston Martin, not my music room !
Taste is like A-holes, everyone has one.
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Car audio...REALLY?? LOLAnd i don't consider McIntosh high end, good enough for my Aston Martin, not my music room !
Aston Martin I like, not car audio of any sort.
Go to some live musical performances friend before shopping for home audio components lest you fall for some hifi sound rather than real music reproduction...
Ewwwww … Just how many A-holes have you tasted then Milan ? Aside from the obvious one that isAnd i don't consider McIntosh high end, good enough for my Aston Martin, not my music room !
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And after Argonaut's post, "live performances " take on a (w)hole new meaning !Once i retire maybe, to much spunk in me still, to do live performances now.
Keep Bailing Milan …. Keep BailingOr are just well dimensioned for massive power delivery when called upon.
They do certain things really well, but it is definitely a polarizing experience, some love them , others don't. Just like horn speakers.
There's nothing wrong with that unless the distortion rises with frequency, which is very common in solid state amps (in which case I agree). So I suspect it does in this case too since every MBL system I've heard sounded bright. I know its not the speakers since I've heard them with amps I know aren't bright.Check MBL 9011 measurements in stereophile:
“The output impedance was very low, at 0.05 ohm at 1kHz “
This means MBL use high amount of negative feedback.
If you look at the measurements linked above they show I'm right. Distortion begins to rise at about 1KHz (very common turnover point BTW). This cause higher ordered harmonics (such as the 7th harmonic of 1KHz) to be unmasked (IOW, audible). The ear converts distortion to tonality, so this adds a bit of brightness and harshness to the presentation. Apparently Atkinson, like so many others, didn't understand the implication of this measurement.
This is such a common problem that people have come to assume that high feedback is the problem, when really its distortion rising with frequency. That happens because the feedback and the gain of the amp (together called 'loop gain') are not both supported by the Gain Bandwidth Product the amp makes. So in a secondary sort of way, if the feedback were reduced it might be possible to find a value where distortion no longer rises, which makes for a much more listenable amplifier.
If an amplifier is bright and/or harsh, that cannot be construed as neutral. Its a coloration. The fact that this can be caused by very low amounts of higher ordered harmonics seems lost on many designers (and audiophiles for that matter). There is a weighting system for assigning various harmonics the amount of audibility they have. Oddly, this bit was understood back in the 1930s (see the Radiotron Designer's Guide 3rd edition, chapter 5)) and somehow seems lost today.
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