Placebo effects in the extreme

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Ultimately, this need to try to "prove" that what we "really" hear is only dependent on the air vibrations & nothing else is a doomed quest & ignores the nature of our auditory perception.
From the non-linear behaviour of the inner ear & the intermodulation products produced we are already seeing that what we hear is not a linear relationship to the air vibrations

The following is taken from this article

When auditory processing itself is examined we see both top-down & bottom-up processing being an essential part of auditory perception.

Bottom-up processing techniques are characterized by the fact that all information flows bottom-up: information is observed in an acoustic waveform, combined to provide meaningful auditory cues, and passed to higher level processes for further interpretation. This approach is also called data-driven processing.

Top-down processing utilizes internal, high-level models of the acoustic environment and prior knowledge of the properties and dependencies of the objects in it. In this approach information also flows top-down: a sensing system collects evidence that would either justify or cause a change in an internal world model and in the state of the objects in it. This approach is double-called prediction-driven processing, because it is strongly dependent on the predictions of an abstracted internal model, and on prior knowledge of the sound sources.

Top-down techniques can add to bottom-up processing and help it to solve otherwise ambiguous situations. Top-down rules may confirm an interpretation or cancel out some others. On the other hand, high-level knowledge can guide the attention and sensitivity of the low-level analysis.

In psychoacoustic experiments, listeners were played a speech recording in which a certain syllable had been deleted and replaced by a noise burst. Because of the linguistic context, the listeners also `heard' the removed syllable, and were even unable to identify exactly where the masking noise burst had occurred.

Sine-wave speech, in which the acoustic signal was modelled by a small number of sinusoid waves, was played to a group of listeners. Most listeners first recognized that signal as a series of tones, chirps, and blips with no apparent linguistic meaning. But after some period of time, all listeners unmistakably heard the words and had difficulties in separating the tones and blips. The linguistic information changed the perception of the signal. In music, internal models of the instrument sounds and tonal context have an analogous effect.

Scheirer mentions Thomassen's observation, which indicates that high-level melodic understanding in music may affect the low-level perception of the attributes of a single sound in a stream [Scheirer96a]. Thomassen observed that certain frequency contours of melodic lines lead to a percept of an accented sound -\x11as it would have been played stronger, although there was no change in the loudness of the sounds [Thomassen82].

Slaney illustrates the effect of context by explaining Ladefoged's experiment, where the same constant sample was played after two different introductory sentences [Slaney95]. Depending on the speaker of the introductory sentence "Please say what this word is: -", the listeners heard the subsequent constant sample to be either "bit" or "bet" [Ladefoged89].

Memory and hearing interact. In [Klapuri98] we have stated that paying attention to time intervals in rhythm and to frequency intervals of concurrent sounds has a certain goal among others: to unify the sounds to form a coherent structure that is able to express more than any of the sounds alone. We propose that also the structure in music has this function: similarities in two sound sequences tie these bigger entities together, although they may be separated in time and may differ from each other in details. These redundancies and repetitions facilitate the task of a human listener, and raise expectations in his mind. Only portions of a common theme need to be explicitly repeated to reconstruct the whole sequence in a listener's mind, and special attention can be paid to intentional variations in repeated sequences.

To try to suggest that top-down processing can be eliminated & only bottom-up processing prevail, is a mistaken understanding of the workings of auditory perception.

Edit: The fact is that top-down processing actually change the performance/functioning of the auditory perception by tuning lower-level sensory mechanisms to increase neural signal-to-noise ratios (SNR).
 
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Why do I have to read through pages and pages of "i believe what I hear" in this forum? No body cares really what you hear in this forum. Really. Best is just not to respond to these types of posts here so we can have a bit more coherent and easier to read threads, AND wait for it, best to not pop into the subjectivists I hear fuse directionality threads with blind tests ideas either. Amir, I know you have been beat upon lately, but deleting posts here about "i believe what I hear " would be in the TOS since it is a mandate of the measurements based forum. Somebody needs to get control of atleast one little part of this forum, and I was hoping it would be this little itty bitty piece of WBF.

and post 177 was beautiful, I loved it. "The objectivist is nothing more than a subjectivist not afraid to explore what they heard, show why they heard it, and in the face of not being able to either show empirically or by bias controlled evaluation re-evaluate." that's what we are trying to do in the measurements forum and we have done it here a few times and that was sweet.
the same reason I have to read:
if you can hear it, you want mind taking a blind test.
Stereo is incapable of replicating live music.
Do you have any measurements?
It's just your imagination.
any competent(insert device...)
statisitically(in)significant.
all amps sound the same.
hipster subjectivvist
McGurk effect
digital can make a perfect copy of analog
king of audio
subjectivist,objectivist
Bob Carvers null test
Quad DSD
Class D
Anything related to Harmon International
You cn'tt
rust your ears,etc.....
 
You have to have a really expensive system to hear what I hear
you are deaf
I know what live music sounds like
I trust my ears
I changed a fuse today ,blacks became more blacker, the speakers disappeared soundstage expanded beyond the room

digital glare
timing smear
digital missing resolution
even my wife noticed the difference and she is in Pennslyvania

Keith
 
Since I'm the one that authored that 'thread of conscious thought' you missed the forest for the trees. Remember that the entire premise is that the 'Honest Subjectivist' in my quote is one that is also capable of entertaining that what they thought they heard is possibly a figment of their imagination.

If you have questions about what I post don't assume. Ask me. I'm right here.

Should an "honest objectivist" not be capable of entertaining that their analysis/measurements are not necessarily the "truth" as far as auditory perception is concerned?
 
Should an "honest objectivist" not be capable of entertaining that their analysis/measurements are not necessarily the "truth" as far as auditory perception is concerned?
If the measurements don't show any difference and one can't hear any difference..
sometimes , a pipe is just a pipe.
Keith.
 
You have to have a really expensive system to hear what I hear
you are deaf
I know what live music sounds like
I trust my ears
I changed a fuse today ,blacks became more blacker, the speakers disappeared soundstage expanded beyond the room

digital glare
timing smear
digital missing resolution
even my wife noticed the difference and she is in Pennslyvania

Keith
Okay I really did laugh out loud to the last one.
 
If the measurements don't show any difference and one can't hear any difference..
sometimes , a pipe is just a pipe.
Keith.

You consider your measurements tell you everything about what is audible?
Sometimes you just are so locked into a mindset that you can't or won't allow yourself to consider its limitations. You are an excellent example of that - you know very little about measurements or the technology & yet you have such a bullish attitude to your statements regarding both of these
 
Depending on how I rotate the iPad, the color is lighter on the left and darker on the right. Or rotated it is the same color. Since sight is photons on the retina then how they strike affect the color. By extension, since sound is molecules striking the ear then how they strike can affect the sound. So while something might measure the same then if it affects the motion of the molecules it could improve or worsen the sound.

I got a chuckle. What you are changing is your aspect to the screen. What is being sent to it hasn't changed however.
 
Should an "honest objectivist" not be capable of entertaining that their analysis/measurements are not necessarily the "truth" as far as auditory perception is concerned?

Sure they can. Done all the time.

After I've done FR Sweep, CSD, Off Axis, Noise Floor, gated subwoofer response, Spectral, Distortion Plots etc.... And it all looks the same and I move onto bias controlled evaluation and it lines up with the prior instrumented observations

Well you can either have the intellectual humility to concede that the mind is a powerful and creative device, or you can become a logic defying subjectivist.
 
There is measurement bias ,too.
 
Sure they can. Done all the time.

After I've done FR Sweep, CSD, Off Axis, Noise Floor, gated subwoofer response, Spectral, Distortion Plots etc.... And it all looks the same and I move onto bias controlled evaluation and it lines up with the prior instrumented observations

Well you can either have the intellectual humility to concede that the mind is a powerful and creative device, or you can become a logic defying subjectivist.

You are talking about speaker tests, right & they show you that two different speaker models sound the same?
And you conclude, what?
Can you give some examples of this
Can you give some examples of you stating that your measurements may be a limiting factor?
 
I'm afraid at some point one has to make a subjective decision - otherwise what's the point of trying to have "better" sound. If the only reason that one should listen to one system rather than another is because the first has some set of numbers which are better than those from the other then we are at a pretty low point.

Actually, there is a way of "objectifying" the subjective evaluation method - the same technique that those who have evaluated the various mp3, etc, compression encoders while in development use: you choose a particular clip of sound, music that catches the software - hardware in our case - out, perhaps increasing the volume, until the A vs. B is screaming at you. This is how I started, using the sound of cymbals in rock music - made it trivially easy to pick the good from the bad ... nowadays I'm so sensitive to the characteristics of noise flaws it makes it impossible for me to listen to most systems without wanting to dive in and sort them out ...


I differ about PA systems. Over the years I have heard a couple of sound reinforcement systems which were superb, I couldn't imagine at the time them being able to achieve better quality sound - nearly all the rest were shockers, a nightmare to listen to for more than a minimum of time. So, at least one or two people know what to do - PA should be the same as home sound, only able to go louder over extended periods without reliability issues.

"As best I can" is doing what it takes to lift the standard of playback to that of convincing sound - that which would fool a blindfolded person, say ...

Unfortunately the point in question is about reducing system noise, not what sound you subjectively prefer. It is not a given that one follows the other. You simply don't know. The mo3 example is not relevant. With that You have a difinitive original to compare with. You don't with the noise issue in your system.

Sorry I am still lost with the PA system point you are trying to make.

So you are confirming that the best you can is purely a subjective opinion regarding what you like the best.
 
There is measurement bias ,too.

And measurements that are properly taken, documented, and reproducible are also open to contradiction if they are in error. Knock yourself out.

I'm always open to 360 degree critical feedback. I'm always willing to look at, assess, and modify my position, my understanding, my approach. But it's going to be data driven.

Again it's intellectual humility that I don't see with a great many of the Subjective folk.

At Polk Audio people were just going on and on and on about burned in cables. I offered to send out a set of unused and a set of burned in cables. Randomly labeled. For any ears on, 30 day, no test administrator, fully SIGHTED, any interval timing, # of swaps the participant desired, in their own home on their own setup.

$100 to charity.

No goal posts where changed out side of my initial offer. After 10 weeks of the thread just blowing up, but strangely no takers, I rescinded the offer. My point made and data collected.
 
You are talking about speaker tests, right & they show you that two different speaker models sound the same?
And you conclude, what?
Can you give some examples of this
Can you give some examples of you stating that your measurements may be a limiting factor?

I'm talking about the differences in cables as measured as SPL, CSD, Spectral plots, etc... The DAC/Pre/Amp/Speakers are a control.
 
Ok, here is an experience I had this evening for you to mull over.

Through my hifi dealer I have recently become acquainted with a bunch of hifi enthusiasts, all sorts of people (very nice people might I add) who meet up regularly to talk hifi, have a drink and listen to some music. I would say most are subjectivist leaning.

As I have an Intona and most of them have regens, a test we performed tonight was comparing the two. Playing back via PC and an Aries to a Dave. The rest of the system is high end, I'll get a full list later.

Before I get to that I'll talk about the first test. Compare some tracks ripped from cd to the same tracks played back through my Mdac and re recorded by my adc - the TI one I use for my measurements. The original tracks were cd 16bit, 44k and I recorded them with Adobe audition at 24bit 96kHz.

This was obviously performed blind. There was a very strong consensus that the re recorded tracks sounded better! I listened and noted some of the comments, "there is more detail, background noise is Lower, " etc......many of the typical comments you,ll see in a forum like this to describe the improvements some tweak has made.

Of course none of this can be true. The re-recording has degraded the fidelity of the track, the Mdac has and the adc has, yet 8 out of 10 hifi enthusiasts preferred it. It's only 8 because 2 of us were operating the test and not listening.

Ok to the regen/ Intona. Interesting result there. First thing to note is that everyone struggled to hear a difference. When playing back from a laptop the final consensus was the Intona was better. When Playing back from the Aries people thought the regen was better.

Now this test could have been controlled better, next time I will do so, however this example just confirms my opinions regarding how flawed people's (including my own) subjective opinions can be.

People like what they like - it often has little to do with the fidelity of the system.
 
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I'm talking about the differences in cables as measured as SPL, CSD, Spectral plots, etc... The DAC/Pre/Amp/Speakers are a control.

So, despite you claim that "honest objectivists" admit to the possible limitations of their measurements, you can't cite a previous example of this from you?
What were you saying about "intellectual humility"?
 
Ok, here is an experience I had this evening for you to mull over.

Through my hifi dealer I have recently become acquainted with a bunch of hifi enthusiasts, all sorts of people (very nice people might I add) who meet up regularly to talk hifi, have a drink and listen to some music.

As I have an Intona and most of them have regens, a test we performed tonight was comparing the two. Playing back via PC and an Aries to a Dave. The rest of the system is high end, I'll get a full list later.

Before I get to that I'll talk about the first test. Compare some tracks ripped from cd to the same tracks played back through my Mdac and re recorded by my adc - the TI one I use for my measurements. The original tracks were cd 16bit, 44k and I recorded them with Adobe audition at 24bit 96kHz.

This was obviously performed blind. There was a very strong consensus that the re recorded tracks sounded better! I listened and noted some of the comments, "there is more detail, background noise is Lower, " etc......many of the typical comments you,ll see in a forum like this to describe the improvements some tweak has made.

Of course none of this can be true. The re-recording has degraded the fidelity of the track, the Mdac has and the adc has, yet 10 hifi enthusiasts preferred it.

Ok to the regen/ Intona. Interesting real there. First thing to note is that everyone struggled to here a difference. When playing back from a laptop the consensus was the Intona was better. When Playing back from the Aries people thought the regen was better.

Now this test could have been controlled better, next time I will do so, however this example just confirms my opinions regarding how flawed people's (including my own) subjective opinions can be.

People like what they like - it often has little to do with the fidelity of the system.
I love the cognitive dissonance demonstrated in the highlighted text :)

And another great example of how an "objectivist is someone who is willing to investigate the reason for why something is being heard" Hilarious
Yea, right!!
 
What are you on about JK?

Obviously blind because I am sure you realise I wouldn't allow it to happen any other way.

None of the descriptions can be true because the re-recording will have damaged every aspect of the originals fidelity.
 
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