Reference Speakers to Audition

[LL21]

To all: alot has happened in the high-end speaker market in the last few years. Is there any interest in reviving this thread and starting a new "Ref Speakers..." list?

For me, I still find the following to be my favorites:

- Rockport Arrakis
- Genesis 1.1
- Wilson X-Series (I, II and XLF)

Then without the scale:
- Apogee Stages
- Sonus Faber Guarneri

Then without the absolute refinement but great value:
- Celestion SL6si

 

[KeithR]

ha! forgot about this 6 year old thread! it's amazing how times and tastes have changed - many folks who responded have completely changed directions. my tastes have narrowed as well.

I've actually traded in my Zu Definition IVs for Devore Fidelity Gibbon Xs and they have around 400 hours or so. My relatively new living space would be pointless to have a "reference speaker" - but when I move later this year, may become more focused on it.

That said, at the Newport Show I really enjoyed:

Rockport
Evolution Acoustics
YG Acoustics (which wasn't even a player 6 years ago!)
Avantgarde
Cessaro

Have to say I'm off the Wilson/Magico train in recent years, but clearly they have retained their passionate supporters. I've also enjoyed Vivid, but still can't get past the Dr. Seuss looks.

 

[bonzo75]

For me, I still find the following to be my favorites:

- Rockport Arrakis
- Genesis 1.1
- Wilson X-Series (I, II and XLF)

Then without the scale:
- Apogee Stages
- Sonus Faber Guarneri

Then without the absolute refinement but great value:
- Celestion SL6si

The Apogee Stages are tiny.

 

[marty]

For me, I still find the following to be my favorites:

- Rockport Arrakis
- Genesis 1.1
- Wilson X-Series (I, II and XLF)

Then without the scale:
- Apogee Stages
- Sonus Faber Guarneri

Then without the absolute refinement but great value:
- Celestion SL6si

Totally agree about the Celestion S6Lsi. Many years ago, a good friend of mine had those and we spent countless hours of wonderful listening to these relatively unknown and unheralded speakers. It was also one of the first smaller speaker manufacturers that insisted that the stands they were on were important. Thus Celestion made great stable and sturdy stands for them well ahead of other followers. Today, if you are able to find a used pair and you then add a small JLAudio Sub, you just might have a killer system at a bargain price.

 

[bonzo75]

My candidates:

1. Henk's modded Apogee Grands, in Netherlands - USD 100k
2. Western Electric 16A with subs, GIP drivers, Leipzig...Asia too has a few of those - USD 50k

If you can afford it, get both...Apogees down the room, WE mono on the Long wall

Then, more commercial, available, serviceable.
1. Trios with bass horns if you have a big room

Smaller rooms, big budget, no particular order
Stenheim Alumine 5, based on Munich demo. USD 50+, good for those looking for Magico style cones
Horns Autotec, only horn I heard that fits into a average size room nicely. Euro 25k

Best Value:
Acoustat Spectras, if you can find them used. 2k. Remains one of the best rooms I heard, to go over that, I had to visit people with serious room, vinyl and giant speaker set-ups

If you cannot find those, Quad 2912. Live with the compromises, but on vocals and small scale classical you will have it covered.

Special mention to Tune Audio Animas, which fit into Trio with bass horn category. They have better tone and timbre though, trio has better imaging, scale, bass.

Also you can take any cone and cross it over well to subs.

For those who cannot make the investment to serious rooms, vinyl, and big speakers, recommend MCH rather than going the 2-ch route if classical is your thing

 

[morricab]

My candidates:

1. Henk's modded Apogee Grands, in Netherlands - USD 100k
2. Western Electric 16A with subs, GIP drivers, Leipzig...Asia too has a few of those - USD 50k

If you can afford it, get both...Apogees down the room, WE mono on the Long wall

Then, more commercial, available, serviceable.
1. Trios with bass horns if you have a big room

Smaller rooms, big budget, no particular order
Stenheim Alumine 5, based on Munich demo. USD 50+, good for those looking for Magico style cones
Horns Autotec, only horn I heard that fits into a average size room nicely. Euro 25k

Best Value:
Acoustat Spectras, if you can find them used. 2k. Remains one of the best rooms I heard, to go over that, I had to visit people with serious room, vinyl and giant speaker set-ups

If you cannot find those, Quad 2912. Live with the compromises, but on vocals and small scale classical you will have it covered.

Special mention to Tune Audio Animas, which fit into Trio with bass horn category. They have better tone and timbre though, trio has better imaging, scale, bass.

Also you can take any cone and cross it over well to subs.

For those who cannot make the investment to serious rooms, vinyl, and big speakers, recommend MCH rather than going the 2-ch route if classical is your thing

You should have heard my set up a few years ago when I had Acoustat Spectra 2200s running to 100Hz and then a huge pair of Acoustat Spectra 4400s as subwoofers. Best bass I ever had in a system, including the IRS Betas I had a few years before that or the Genesis VIs I had a couple of years ago. I called it my Acoustatica Grand . It did realisitic up to small orchestral pieces, scale, depth, precision...it was huge but it was good (the Spectra 4400s were 2.4 meters tall and about 60cm wide). I also had a pair of Acoustat 1+1, which was the older generation, and I modded them to get a cleaner sound (out with old electrolytic cap and in with huge film cap...fixed resistor rather than corroded adjustable wirewound resistor etc.). They were not quite as good overall as the Spectra 2200s but they did something special with soundstage and imaging...especially when coupled to the Silvaweld OTL reference monos I had, which were just shocking (really I have heard nothing like that before or since) in their transparency and holography...when they worked right...which was only about 20% of the time. I would put that Acoustat combo up against the Grand any day but only in a moderate sized room where I could drive the Acoustats with KR Audio or equivalent SETs (I had two VA350is running that system and an Accuphase F25 active crossover...that was the weak link...).

Now a Norwegian friend of mine has the Spectra 2200s (I sold the bigger ones to a guy in Germany) and I tried to buy them back...he said no way! He also has a pair of STAX ELS-F81s that are amazingly transparent and do some bass if strapped to proper tube amp. He drives the Spectras with a BAT VK200 and that combo sounds pretty darn good for SS!

Another great small to medium sized room horn is Odeon. They use proper solid wood horns so coloration is low. My La Bohemes work well in a quite small room or in a much bigger room. The No. 32 will fit no problem in a 20 square meter room...it is much smaller than the AutoTech horns and sounds really great (just heard it last weekend with Christoph and a KR VA350i amp and ARC cd9 cd player). With about 95db/watt it is a quite SET friendly speaker and has deep tight bass (it is a special vented box design not horn bass).

 

[Ron Resnick]

My candidates:

1. Henk's modded Apogee Grands, in Netherlands - USD 100k

. . .

For that US$100,000 does Henk source the original Grands and purchase the Graz drivers and install them and recondition everything and build new frames, etc., so the buyer gets a completely upgraded, finished product?

 

[bonzo75]

For that US$100,000 does Henk source the original Grands and purchase the Graz drivers and install them and recondition everything and build new frames, etc., so the buyer gets a completely upgraded, finished product?

I think that will be to roughly buy his speakers, finished. Apogee Grands I have seen listed from 65 - 100k, I am sure at that price and rarity there is room for negotiation depending on how good the speaker sounds. But on a general basis, like Full Ranges and Divas and Duettas, which become more available as you go down the line, restorers offer you that either they can restore one when they source one, or you can source one and send it to them for a rebuild.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think I have heard too many great speakers in the last two years.

My current "statement" favorites (in alphabetical order):

Genesis Advanced Technologies 1.2/Dragon/Prime

Gryphon Audio Pendragon

Rockport Technologies Arrakis

Von Schweikert Audio VR-11SE Mk. 2

My current "next tier" favorites (in alphabetical order):

Evolution Acoustics MMThreeExact

MartinLogan Neolith

Rockport Technologies Altair II alone, or with JL Audio subwoofers

Viva Audio Nuda (for jazz)

Von Schweikert Audio VR-55 Aktive

Wilson Audio Alexx with Thor subwoofers and Wilson Audio Watch Controller

To be auditioned: I suspect the Acapella Audio Arts Apollon will be one of my favorite horn-based speakers.

 

[bonzo75]

You should have heard my set up a few years ago when I had Acoustat Spectra 2200s running to 100Hz and then a huge pair of Acoustat Spectra 4400s as subwoofers. Best bass I ever had in a system, including the IRS Betas I had a few years before that or the Genesis VIs I had a couple of years ago. I called it my Acoustatica Grand . It did realisitic up to small orchestral pieces, scale, depth, precision...it was huge but it was good (the Spectra 4400s were 2.4 meters tall and about 60cm wide). I also had a pair of Acoustat 1+1, which was the older generation, and I modded them to get a cleaner sound (out with old electrolytic cap and in with huge film cap...fixed resistor rather than corroded adjustable wirewound resistor etc.). They were not quite as good overall as the Spectra 2200s but they did something special with soundstage and imaging...especially when coupled to the Silvaweld OTL reference monos I had, which were just shocking (really I have heard nothing like that before or since) in their transparency and holography...when they worked right...which was only about 20% of the time. I would put that Acoustat combo up against the Grand any day but only in a moderate sized room where I could drive the Acoustats with KR Audio or equivalent SETs (I had two VA350is running that system and an Accuphase F25 active crossover...that was the weak link...).

Now a Norwegian friend of mine has the Spectra 2200s (I sold the bigger ones to a guy in Germany) and I tried to buy them back...he said no way! He also has a pair of STAX ELS-F81s that are amazingly transparent and do some bass if strapped to proper tube amp. He drives the Spectras with a BAT VK200 and that combo sounds pretty darn good for SS!

Another great small to medium sized room horn is Odeon. They use proper solid wood horns so coloration is low. My La Bohemes work well in a quite small room or in a much bigger room. The No. 32 will fit no problem in a 20 square meter room...it is much smaller than the AutoTech horns and sounds really great (just heard it last weekend with Christoph and a KR VA350i amp and ARC cd9 cd player). With about 95db/watt it is a quite SET friendly speaker and has deep tight bass (it is a special vented box design not horn bass).

I can easily believe the Acoustatica Grand will be tough to beat. One has to invest real money in a very good room to beat such stats.

Don't think Apogee Grands will sound good in an average room anyway.

I have heard Odeon 28s at Berlin hifi with NAT Magnetostat, Einstein amps, Jadis pre, Chord power amp (powerful SS). Also new audio frontiers.

 

[BruceD]

Hmmm Interesting observations above--

I wonder how the upcoming Cessaro 18"Field Coil Bass /8" Field Coil Mid/Horn Tweeter will slot into the mix

Sounds Promising

BruceD

 

[Folsom]

I think I have heard too many great speakers in the last two years.

My current "statement" favorites (in alphabetical order):

Genesis Advanced Technologies 1.2/Dragon/Prime

Gryphon Audio Pendragon

Rockport Technologies Arrakis

Von Schweikert Audio VR-11SE Mk. 2

My current "next tier" favorites (in alphabetical order):

Evolution Acoustics MMThreeExact

MartinLogan Neolith

Rockport Technologies Altair II alone, or with JL Audio subwoofers

Von Schweikert Audio VR-55 Aktive

Wilson Audio Alexx with Thor subwoofers and Wilson Audio Watch Controller

To be auditioned: I suspect that the Acapella Audio Arts Apollon will be my favorite horn-based speaker.

Any plans to throw in some wild cards?

 

[garylkoh]

The Viva Audio Nuda horn system knocked my socks off at HiFi Deluxe in Munich this year. I'm still thinking about how it sounded on opera, and what I'll have to do to get my own designs to get there/beat that. I haven't heard the Viva Audio Masterhorn, but if the designer Amadeo is to be believed, and he tells me that the Masterhorn is even better, that might be the horn loudspeaker to beat.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The Viva Audio Nuda horn system knocked my socks off at HiFi Deluxe in Munich this year. I'm still thinking about how it sounded on opera, and what I'll have to do to get my own designs to get there/beat that. I haven't heard the Viva Audio Masterhorn, but if the designer Amadeo is to be believed, and he tells me that the Masterhorn is even better, that might be the horn loudspeaker to beat.

I agree, Gary. I thought the Nuda on jazz was amazing. I asked SpiritofMusic and bonzo to come back the next day and listen with me, and they both hated it and walked out in the first five minutes. Somehow I forgot about the Nuda in my list above.

In Munich I had lunch with Amadeo and I found him to be engineering-oriented, smart, very knowledgeable, down-to-earth and absolutely delightful. The Viva Audio Masterhorn is one of Matej's favorites of all time. And Matej liked the Nuda when he heard it with me.

 

[microstrip]

I agree, Gary. I thought the Nuda on jazz was amazing. I asked SpiritofMusic and bonzo to come back the next day and listen with me, and they both hated it and walked out in the first five minutes. Somehow I forgot about the Nuda in my list above.

In Munich I had lunch with Amadeo and I found him to be engineering-oriented, smart, very knowledgeable, down-to-earth and absolutely delightful. The Viva Audio Masterhorn is one of Matej's favorites of all time. And Matej liked the Nuda when he heard it with me.

Did you listen to it playing symphonic music?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Did you listen to it playing symphonic music?

No, I did not. If I remember correctly bonzo played one of his standard classical audition LPs and walked out in five minutes.

The host played my standard vocal audition LPs and, as with every horn system in Munich, I felt there was a slight loss of transparency on vocals compared to electrostatic and ribbon speakers. But on jazz I thought the Nuda was great.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Any plans to throw in some wild cards?

I do not think so. The list already is long enough!

My wild card might be Miro Krajnc's SoulSonic Impulse SE. Ordinarily a manufacturer of such low volume and so far away (from California) might not pass my "real company making a real product test" but I spent so much time with Miro in Munich, and he is so smart, knowledgeable, engineering-oriented and nice, that I would not have any reservation purchasing a speaker from him.

What wild card do you have in mind?

 

[Folsom]

That's a very good one. I thought Blue Moon LS3 new flagship should be heard since it's utterly new and using some extraordinary drivers no one has put into such creation like, yet. I suppose the new Kharma's no one has heard either. Piega's Master's would be on my list because I'm a big fan of their proprietary drivers.

You might have a better list than me!

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I thought Blue Moon LS3 new flagship should be heard since it's utterly new and using some extraordinary drivers no one has put into such creation like, yet. . . .

I saw photos of the Blue Moon LS3 in Matej's visit and report in Mono and Stereo. They definitely look big, four column and interesting. I think their midrange driver element is conventional cones though, so, to me, that would be their biggest difference versus Genesis 1.2 and Pendragon.

 

[Folsom]

Correct on the midrange. But that's a big reason to listen to it. That midrange is used as a fullrange driver by numerous people that cannot get over the finesse it has. The problem is by itself it's not very efficient, and the output is too low for anything but small room and lower dynamics. What happens when you stack them 6ft tall? Well, I'm curious is the word.