REL No. 32

[LL21]

The only direct comparison we did (with and without the pair of REL No. 25s) was "Famous Blue Raincoat" on Famous Blue Raincoat. That is basically a single vocal in a single instrument.

I heard very little difference on the vocal, but, nonetheless, I still preferred it with the subs because the subs lowered slightly the sonic center of gravity of the system (sorry TimA), and slightly richened and deepened the overall foundation of the track. I could understand many people considering my "richened and deepened" as "clouded and muddied."

Putting it simply, you definitely do not need subwoofers on that particular track if you already have a full-range loudspeaker system.



Unexpectedly, this is a bit of a tough one for me. I have said and written many times that "I would add subwoofers to a ham sandwich."

Even with most of my bass room boom ameliorated, and even after I raised the woofer level up to -2.0, I still have 12 steps to go (up to +10.0)!

Before I set up the system, I was assuming I would get a pair of 15" RELs someday, and I was assuming that thereafter people would think I was crazy for adding subwoofers to Pendragons (eight 8" drivers have the approximate surface area of two and a half 15" drivers). And I don't have that big of a room. But I have always had in my head that I would get a pair of 15 inch RELs someday to gild the low frequency lily, for the reasons you and I have discussed for years, Lloyd, whether I need them or not.

The in-room reality is that according to the frequency response charts, my frequency response is literally slightly rising at 20.0Hz. I am shocked by how impressive I find to be Flemming's design and implementation of the powered woofer tower concept. Of course I have never compared other woofer towers in this room, but I feel like this might be the best implementation of a self-powered woofer design ever made in the history of the industry. I am shocked by what I think I am hearing in terms of low frequency detail and texture as well as oomph and impact (of course oomph and impact is the easy part).

Aside from oomph and impact, which I know is not your question, the only intellectually honest answer is I can't be sure about the "air" and the soundstage ambience without having the RELs in the system and turning them on and off.

The lowest REL crossover setting I believe is 40 Hz. The Pendragon woofer towers sure don't need any supplement whatsoever above 30Hz. Any additional energy right above 30 Hz would contribute to the room boom node problem.

So would the RELs add some support in the 10 Hz to 15 Hz range without also goosing 30 Hz to 40 Hz? A lot of "ifs" here, I am feeling.

As much as I'd like to talk myself into REL subwoofers, I think they truly might be superfluous. And in my particular case even if we stipulate that they will add some soundstage ambience from 10 Hz to 15 Hz, am I losing more than I am gaining by likely re-energizing the room boom problem at 40 to 50 Hz?

Thank you for taking the time to write such a complete answer! Very fair assessment. Its why I like 4-tower designs...it enables for that 'beyond the envelope' performance in a single design. In truth, Wilson has done their own version of that with dual Subsonics/Thors. And so have a few other renowned designers...clearly for a reason! Enjoy!

 

[gadawg58]

The only direct comparison we did (with and without the pair of REL No. 25s) was "Famous Blue Raincoat" on Famous Blue Raincoat. That is basically a single vocal in a single instrument.

I heard very little difference on the vocal, but, nonetheless, I still preferred it with the subs because the subs lowered slightly the sonic center of gravity of the system (sorry TimA), and slightly richened and deepened the overall foundation of the track. I could understand many people considering my "richened and deepened" as "clouded and muddied."

Putting it simply, you definitely do not need subwoofers on that particular track if you already have a full-range loudspeaker system.



Unexpectedly, this is a bit of a tough one for me. I have said and written many times that "I would add subwoofers to a ham sandwich."

Even with most of my bass room boom ameliorated, and even after I raised the woofer level up to -2.0, I still have 12 steps to go (up to +10.0)!

Before I set up the system, I was assuming I would get a pair of 15" RELs someday, and I was assuming that thereafter people would think I was crazy for adding subwoofers to Pendragons (eight 8" drivers have the approximate surface area of two and a half 15" drivers). And I don't have that big of a room. But I have always had in my head that I would get a pair of 15 inch RELs someday to gild the low frequency lily, for the reasons you and I have discussed for years, Lloyd, whether I need them or not.

The in-room reality is that according to the frequency response charts, my frequency response is literally slightly rising at 20.0Hz. I am shocked by how impressive I find to be Flemming's design and implementation of the powered woofer tower concept. Of course I have never compared other woofer towers in this room, but I feel like this might be the best implementation of a self-powered woofer design ever made in the history of the industry. I am shocked by what I think I am hearing in terms of low frequency detail and texture as well as oomph and impact (of course oomph and impact is the easy part).

Aside from oomph and impact, which I know is not your question, the only intellectually honest answer is I can't be sure about the "air" and the soundstage ambience without having the RELs in the system and turning them on and off.

The lowest REL crossover setting I believe is 40 Hz. The Pendragon woofer towers sure don't need any supplement whatsoever above 30Hz. Any additional energy right above 30 Hz would contribute to the room boom node problem.

So would the RELs add some support in the 10 Hz to 15 Hz range without also goosing 30 Hz to 40 Hz? A lot of "ifs" here, I am feeling.

As much as I'd like to talk myself into REL subwoofers, I think they truly might be superfluous. And in my particular case even if we stipulate that they will add some soundstage ambience from 10 Hz to 15 Hz, am I losing more than I am gaining by likely re-energizing the room boom problem at 40 to 50 Hz?

The manual for the No 25 suggests that the starting crossover point to begin dialing it in is at 30hz. The manual also says the crossover point can be set as low as 20hz which means you should be able to blend these in with your wonderful speakers with no worries of bloating the bass at all. I’m sure the No32 is even better! If you try a pair let us know what you think!

George

 

[Ron Resnick]

The manual for the No 25 suggests that the starting crossover point to begin dialing it in is at 30hz. The manual also says the crossover point can be set as low as 20hz which means you should be able to blend these in with you wonderful speakers with no worries of bloating the bass at all.

If the crossover frequency can be set as low as 20Hz, then the No. 25/32 actually could blend very well with my woofer towers. I think REL uses a 12dB slope, so it would be producing little energy even as low as 40 Hz.

If that's the case, in that frequency range (<40Hz), low frequencies probably are truly nondirectional, and maybe I could just put one REL in between the speakers. (Now that I know how physically large the beast is, there literally is no room to locate one next to each pair of towers.) But linking two mono amplifiers to one common ground through a single REL probably is not a great idea.

 

[LL21]

If the crossover frequency can be set as low as 20Hz, then the No. 25/32 actually could blend very well with my woofer towers. I think REL uses a 12dB slope, so it would be producing little energy even as low as 40 Hz.

If that's the case, in that frequency range (<40Hz), low frequencies probably are truly nondirectional, and maybe I could just put one REL in between the speakers. (Now that I know how physically large the beast is, there literally is no room to locate one next to each pair of towers.) But linking two mono amplifiers to one common ground through a single REL probably is not a great idea.

ah, perhaps the game is afoot...

 

[andynotadam]

You guys are over thinking it. Biggest mistake with RELs is crossover too low and volume too high. Follow REl's well documented setup procedures and you will experience something truly magical. I've been using RELs quite successfully for well over 30 years...

 

[John T]

With my REL CARBON SPECIALS 6 pack array, their is NO EQUATION in dialing them in. In John Hunters Video look at the speakers he is using. The room will dictate your settings and what main speakers you are using. I have a huge room 30 X 26 X 26H. The settings in my room will not be the same in a 10 X 10 X 10 room. I agree with @andynotadam about volume too high. You have to dial each individual sub in, on its own. It takes time and small incremental adjustments. With the 6 pack array less is best...

 

[divertiti]

With my REL CARBON SPECIALS 6 pack array, their is NO EQUATION in dialing them in. In John Hunters Video look at the speakers he is using. The room will dictate your settings and what main speakers you are using. I have a huge room 30 X 26 X 26H. The settings in my room will not be the same in a 10 X 10 X 10 room. I agree with @andynotadam about volume too high. You have to dial each individual sub in, on its own. It takes time and small incremental adjustments. With the 6 pack array less is best...

Hi John, curious how the 6 pack carbon special compares to just the stereo pair, sonically can you describe the difference in experience?

 

[LL21]

Hi John, curious how the 6 pack carbon special compares to just the stereo pair, sonically can you describe the difference in experience?

Would also be interested in reading more about the comparison between 6-pack and stereo pair or even just 1 sub.

 

[John T]

Hey Man long time no talk, hope this finds you well. Huge difference than just with a pair, the midrange is extended, the top end opens up more, some call it airiness. Its so easy ascertain the difference. When you turn off the other two per side and just play the pair you realize then how much it adds. You have the Pearls so you know they are no slouch when it comes to bass. But with the array it adds so much more than just bass...Hope this helps...

 

[John T]

Would also be interested in reading more about the comparison between 6-pack and stereo pair or even just 1 sub.

Hi Lloyd I could never go back to just a pair. Keep in mind I have a massive room with a lot of open space including a open loft.

 

[divertiti]

Hey Man long time no talk, hope this finds you well. Huge difference than just with a pair, the midrange is extended, the top end opens up more, some call it airiness. Its so easy ascertain the difference. When you turn off the other two per side and just play the pair you realize then how much it adds. You have the Pearls so you know they are no slouch when it comes to bass. But with the array it adds so much more than just bass...Hope this helps...

Definitely been awhile John, glad to see your system getting better than ever. Appreciate the input on the 6 pack, looks like I might need to go that way at some point. Have you ever watched movies on your system by chance? I have a retractable projector system connected to mine and was wondering if the 6 pack dramatically improves movie experience as well.

 

[John T]

Definitely been awhile John, glad to see your system getting better than ever. Appreciate the input on the 6 pack, looks like I might need to go that way at some point. Have you ever watched movies on your system by chance? I have a retractable projector system connected to mine and was wondering if the 6 pack dramatically improves movie experience as well.

No I have 2 separate systems. But I imagine it would be killer with movies.

 

[LL21]

Hey Man long time no talk, hope this finds you well. Huge difference than just with a pair, the midrange is extended, the top end opens up more, some call it airiness. Its so easy ascertain the difference. When you turn off the other two per side and just play the pair you realize then how much it adds. You have the Pearls so you know they are no slouch when it comes to bass. But with the array it adds so much more than just bass...Hope this helps...

Thank you! Helpful. I wonder how much of that midrange and top-end benefit (definitely a comment people make when adding subs)...might in your case be coming from the fact that you are adding significantly more subs (ie, more sheer volume of air displacement) vs. from the crossover settings of those additional 4 upper subs which as I understand can also start crossing over 10hz +/- higher each time you go up a level.

In other words, how much of the benefit is due to the extra volume of air displacement vs the additional displacement that is occurring higher up in frequency?

I suppose the only way to tell would be to crossover ALL 6 subs at the same lower crossover level. By any chance when you were playing with crossover frequency when dialing in the 2 rows of upper subs...do you notice the chances to the overall sound?

 

[divertiti]

Thank you! Helpful. I wonder how much of that midrange and top-end benefit (definitely a comment people make when adding subs)...might in your case be coming from the fact that you are adding significantly more subs (ie, more sheer volume of air displacement) vs. from the crossover settings of those additional 4 upper subs which as I understand can also start crossing over 10hz +/- higher each time you go up a level.

In other words, how much of the benefit is due to the extra volume of air displacement vs the additional displacement that is occurring higher up in frequency?

I suppose the only way to tell would be to crossover ALL 6 subs at the same lower crossover level. By any chance when you were playing with crossover frequency when dialing in the 2 rows of upper subs...do you notice the chances to the overall sound?

That's a really good point, once all 6 subs are tuned to work in a stack with various volume and crossover, shutting off the top 4 might not yield the equivalent result as having only 2 subs that are tuned to work in stereo. I also wonder how much impact that has. The only way to know for sure is recording what the stereo sub parameters were before adding the rest, and then restoring those settings when making the comparison.

 

[John T]

Thank you! Helpful. I wonder how much of that midrange and top-end benefit (definitely a comment people make when adding subs)...might in your case be coming from the fact that you are adding significantly more subs (ie, more sheer volume of air displacement) vs. from the crossover settings of those additional 4 upper subs which as I understand can also start crossing over 10hz +/- higher each time you go up a level.

In other words, how much of the benefit is due to the extra volume of air displacement vs the additional displacement that is occurring higher up in frequency?

I suppose the only way to tell would be to crossover ALL 6 subs at the same lower crossover level. By any chance when you were playing with crossover frequency when dialing in the 2 rows of upper subs...do you notice the chances to the overall sound?

Hello Lloyd, when I was dialing them in back in January I was doing 1 sub at a time. I did use the same crossover/hi/low level just to have a constant starting point.
To be honest I really don't know if its the frequency or the air displacement. Combination of both I suspect. I looked at my notes and numbers as I incrementally adjusted, it literally has as many as 35-40 incremental adjustments, per sub! It was a daunting exercise!
The room plays a vital role here. I have brick on the gable end (fireplace) so that side plays different from the other side which is a log wall. This is what creates each sub being dialed in differently. I wish this was more specific, but once you find the "sweet spot" it all just comes together. You don't want the 2nd sub competing with the base (floor) sub nor the top sub competing with the 2nd sub. They have to work in unison. I hope this helps...

 

[John T]

That's a really good point, once all 6 subs are tuned to work in a stack with various volume and crossover, shutting off the top 4 might not yield the equivalent result as having only 2 subs that are tuned to work in stereo. I also wonder how much impact that has. The only way to know for sure is recording what the stereo sub parameters were before adding the rest, and then restoring those settings when making the comparison.

Yes you have to use a sheet with all your adjustments or you will go mad!! You could do as you say by having your numbers that work then play around. So you can always go back to your original parameters. For me once you find what works, I seldom change anything. Since January I have made only 1 click here or there adjustments...

 

[LL21]

Hello Lloyd, when I was dialing them in back in January I was doing 1 sub at a time. I did use the same crossover/hi/low level just to have a constant starting point.
To be honest I really don't know if its the frequency or the air displacement. Combination of both I suspect. I looked at my notes and numbers as I incrementally adjusted, it literally has as many as 35-40 incremental adjustments, per sub! It was a daunting exercise!
The room plays a vital role here. I have brick on the gable end (fireplace) so that side plays different from the other side which is a log wall. This is what creates each sub being dialed in differently. I wish this was more specific, but once you find the "sweet spot" it all just comes together. You don't want the 2nd sub competing with the base (floor) sub nor the top sub competing with the 2nd sub. They have to work in unison. I hope this helps...

Thank you. I always surmised that the 6-packs benefits was from a combination of things:
- height which I believe may have something to do with ameliorating issues when bass comes only from the floor level
- pure bass output/air displacement
- lower distortion for the same air displacement because there so much cone surface and amplification
- fine tuning of the 6 subs (a blessing a curse for sure!)
- and the ability to change the crossover not just to micro-finetune...but also because there is a suggestion that the 3 levels each serve a different purpose and the crossover points fairly consistently being HIGHER as you go up is part of that

In general, I hear 2 schools of thought:

- its about air displacement and low distortion...particularly at sub40hz...the 6-pack is giving most of its benefit through simply the air displacement and low distortion...plus some adjustability of crossover...but nothing that could not be delivered with a pair of, for example, dual-opposing 18" subs (1 dual-opposing 18") which could have the same air displacement as 6 pack of 15".

- if you really want it perfect, you need the height (bass array) and believe it or not, it is NOT just about sub-40hz...it is also about increasing crossover to 50hz+ even on full range speakers still yields tremendous increase in scale, space, and all of the attributes you describe...as well as the low bass propulsion and power

 

[John T]

Thank you. I always surmised that the 6-packs benefits was from a combination of things:
- height which I believe may have something to do with ameliorating issues when bass comes only from the floor level
- pure bass output/air displacement
- lower distortion for the same air displacement because there so much cone surface and amplification
- fine tuning of the 6 subs (a blessing a curse for sure!)
- and the ability to change the crossover not just to micro-finetune...but also because there is a suggestion that the 3 levels each serve a different purpose and the crossover points fairly consistently being HIGHER as you go up is part of that

In general, I hear 2 schools of thought:

- its about air displacement and low distortion...particularly at sub40hz...the 6-pack is giving most of its benefit through simply the air displacement and low distortion...plus some adjustability of crossover...but nothing that could not be delivered with a pair of, for example, dual-opposing 18" subs (1 dual-opposing 18") which could have the same air displacement as 6 pack of 15".

- if you really want it perfect, you need the height (bass array) and believe it or not, it is NOT just about sub-40hz...it is also about increasing crossover to 50hz+ even on full range speakers still yields tremendous increase in scale, space, and all of the attributes you describe...as well as the low bass propulsion and power

Hi Lloyd got my chores done (splitting wood) and thanks to your input been experimenting with the subs. Slowly raising the crossovers, very interesting results! A good piece of music to use for this is Jennifer Warnes Ballad of the Runaway Horse. It seems as though I am extending further what I have shared...Stay tuned! Another interesting piece to use is The Art of The Balkan Bass

 

[LL21]

Hi Lloyd got my chores done (splitting wood) and thanks to your input been experimenting with the subs. Slowly raising the crossovers, very interesting results! A good piece of music to use for this is Jennifer Warnes Ballad of the Runaway Horse. It seems as though I am extending further what I have shared...Stay tuned! Another interesting piece to use is The Art of The Balkan Bass

Great! Look forward to reading more about it!