REL No. 32

[John T]

Thank you for the information. I reviewed much of it along with perusing REL's site and didn't see any measurements confirming any statements and found no white papers. As such, and with all due respect to REL and no offense to you by any means, I don't completely buy the logic of placement and the advice. Please note - I'm not stating REL doesn't make very good subwoofers, I am stating their logic and setup guidance is fundamentally flawed. There are two main issues with the logic / guidance based on my experience installing subs along with information (that my results corroborate) from experts such as Dr. Floyd Toole and Ken Kreisel:

In all the REL content, there is nothing specific to using the subs to mitigate room modes. Maybe this is by design, however it's a fundamental reason for implementing subs. Even worse, for the vast majority of us audiophiles in "small" rooms, placing the subs next to the mains will further exacerbate room modes due to the close proximity to the mains' woofers. And stacking 2 or 3 subs further exacerbates that issue. Net - for most rooms, stacking next to mains commonly yields deleterious low frequency response compared to the benefits. In the words of Ken Kreisel, arguably the creator of satellite / subs combo, "Unlike stacking, distributed sub placement prevents aggressive room modes, eliminating the need for a cure."

There are many other comments in the content that IME are falsehoods, simply too many to comment on.

All that said, I've heard the REL 6 pack in a top - notch system in a very large room (where placing the subs next to the mains may be beneficial) and it sounded very good. But again, in (most) modest - size rooms, taking advantage of away - from mains' sub placement yields a smoother low frequency response and overall more realistic and better sonics measured and proven via listening. I'd wager splitting up the subs yields even greater sonics than stacking (btw, I've already tried this with my 4 JLA Fathoms).

Maybe this should be moved to another thread, but I thought I'd provide my experience and feedback.

Room size would be a critical aspect of using the 6 pack array. My room is (log home) 30' X 26' X 26H', 9/12 pitch, with an open loft. I could do audio sermons in here! That would be interesting! We're talking approx, Taking the pitch into account and open loft 15000.00 cubic (conservative) feet or more. If my room was 10 X10 X10 I wouldn't consider this. With the 2 Carbon Specials (blind folded) one would not know I had subwoofers in my system. It takes time to dial them in. Theory is great, I use theory in winemaking, so very often theory is just as defined. Until the application is in your space, your system, subjects such as this are pure conjecture. If for some reason I don't like the array I'll be the first to share my observations. They better hurry up and get here! With upcoming knee replacement surgery I won't be moving subwoofers for some time!

 

[bryans]

Room size would be a critical aspect of using the 6 pack array. My room is (log home) 30' X 26' X 26H', 9/12 pitch, with an open loft. I could do audio sermons in here! That would be interesting! We're talking approx, Taking the pitch into account and open loft 15000.00 cubic (conservative) feet or more. If my room was 10 X10 X10 I wouldn't consider this. With the 2 Carbon Specials (blind folded) one would not know I had subwoofers in my system. It takes time to dial them in. Theory is great, I use theory in winemaking, so very often theory is just as defined. Until the application is in your space, your system, subjects such as this are pure conjecture. If for some reason I don't like the array I'll be the first to share my observations. They better hurry up and get here! With upcoming knee replacement surgery I won't be moving subwoofers for some time!

WOW how I would love to have a room like yours!

I agree, theory is OK but that isn't everything. I have had the pleasure of hearing Rel 6 Packs in small and large rooms. I personally have loved them all. If you ever go down the Rel line array I personally believe you will love them. And yes as you already know, it takes some time to set up, like everything else.

 

[sbo6]

Room size would be a critical aspect of using the 6 pack array. My room is (log home) 30' X 26' X 26H', 9/12 pitch, with an open loft. I could do audio sermons in here! That would be interesting! We're talking approx, Taking the pitch into account and open loft 15000.00 cubic (conservative) feet or more. If my room was 10 X10 X10 I wouldn't consider this. With the 2 Carbon Specials (blind folded) one would not know I had subwoofers in my system. It takes time to dial them in. Theory is great, I use theory in winemaking, so very often theory is just as defined. Until the application is in your space, your system, subjects such as this are pure conjecture. If for some reason I don't like the array I'll be the first to share my observations. They better hurry up and get here! With upcoming knee replacement surgery I won't be moving subwoofers for some time!

Thanks John T. Congrats on your very large room where stacking would likely work, as you said. whether it's preferred is another story.

Also, WRT theory, yes there's theory and then there's application which is why I stated "based on my experience", not just white papers and books. Enjoy the subs!

 

[John T]

Interesting enough the first sub, low level/crossover is identical. 2nd tier/3rd may be different. This is a result of room acoustics. I'll elaborate further when I set them up. Ought to be interesting!

 

[LL21]

Interesting enough the first sub, low level/crossover is identical. 2nd tier/3rd may be different. This is a result of room acoustics. I'll elaborate further when I set them up. Ought to be interesting!

Hi John T

I have been reading up on this...and found this post on a PS Audio website. It shows the different crossover point for each 'level' of the sub in the 3-level stack. It appears for this individual to have started at 40hz on the lower units, 50hz on the middle and 60hz on the upper...each time with the overall system volume going DOWN as more cones were added...

Rel Line Array Subs

OK a few of you asked for my review of the Rel S/510 Six Pack/Line Array. So here is my take on them. Now to start, I have only been listening to the full Six Pack for a little over a week. But it has been a fun and not so fun week. My setup is for music only. Now if your goal is to add low...

forum.psaudio.com

Rel Line Array Subs

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michaelhifi

Jan '21

OK a few of you asked for my review of the Rel S/510 Six Pack/Line Array. So here is my take on them. Now to start, I have only been listening to the full Six Pack for a little over a week. But it has been a fun and not so fun week. My setup is for music only.

Now if your goal is to add low bass, purchase 1 or 2 subs and stop there. Having 2 subs in my setup gives me more bass than I can take. My first 2 subs crossover are set to approx. 40 Hz. When I initially only had 2 subs, I had the output set higher to give me the bass I was looking for. I utilized the videos on Rel’s site as guidance on how to set things up. I ended up having the subs along the back wall and not in the corners behind the speakers. They seem to react with my room better in this location.

Adding the second set of subs (#3 and #4) gave me added mid bass dynamics, impact, and weight. For example, when I listen to a singer, their notes have more body. Kind of like I am feeling the singer’s chest cavity. Or when I listen to an acoustic guitar, you know it is an acoustic guitar! I have these 2 subs crossover set to approx. 50 Hz or so. I also turned the output of the subs down.

Now adding the final subs (#5 and #6) made my system “open up”. It seems like I have a better sense of space and ambiance. Impact and dynamics get taken up a notch as well. I have the final 2 subs crossover set to approx. 60 Hz. I also adjusted all of the subs output down. The final output of the 6 subs is close to the output level when I only had 2 subs.

I will say one of the advantages of the Rel subs is the fact that you can independently adjust each sub. This gives you the ultimate flexibility to dial the system to your listening style. Now this can also be a problem. A few times I had the bass output set very low and it made my midrange way too forward. The best advice I can give, is to take pictures of your settings as you make adjustments. Makes it easy to get back to your starting point if needed.

I’m using Analysis Plus Rel cables for all connections.

Unfortunately, I don’t own all of these subs . They will have to be returned soon. I will say without a doubt I am a believer in Rel’s Six-Pack. It has taken my system to a new level. For me having vertical subs is the way to go.

 

[bryans]

Curious if any of you are using the "Standby/ Always On Switch" in standby mode? In the past with my Rel units I always utilized standby mode. With the No. 31 it seems like Rel is suggesting the always on mode.

 

[chuck]

Curious if any of you are using the "Standby/ Always On Switch" in standby mode? In the past with my Rel units I always utilized standby mode. With the No. 31 it seems like Rel is suggesting the always on mode.

I have been leaving the 32s on.

 

[John T]

I'm in standby. I don't understand understand the reasoning for on all the time other than keeping them warm. I could see leaving them on when new to do a break in.
On another point Clay at REL sent me a pic of a pad with a host of numbers while doing an install. I do understand this was a system that I have no inkling about. However the numbers were double digit in many of the adjustments. In my system less is better...

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm in standby. I don't understand understand the reasoning for on all the time other than keeping them warm. I could see leaving them on when new to do a break in.
On another point Clay at REL sent me a pic of a pad with a host of numbers while doing an install. I do understand this was a system that I have no inkling about. However the numbers were double digit in many of the adjustments. In my system less is better...

How're you doing John. Are you ambulatory?

 

[John T]

How're you doing John. Are you ambulatory?

Thanks for asking Steve. I’m good. Was able to come home the same day. Already doing PT and hitting 106 ROM. Nights suck. Just doing Tylenol. You know. Getting comfortable to get some good shut eye is the most difficult part. It’s been very nice with the well wishes from the WBF boys and some very good insight. Good bunch...

 

[ricjor1]

I love the No. 32 in 2-channel and to my surprise I prefer it for movies over any subwoofer that I've owned. The bass is powerful, you feel it and hear it. I just can't say enough about how much I'm enjoying the No. 32s for music and movies.

 

[M-dB]

LL21, will you be selling your DD-18 Plus?

 

[LL21]

LL21, will you be selling your DD-18 Plus?

Quite possibly, but first things first...definitely need to be determining when we are going super-sub. Definitely will do at some point, but still very much considering exactly what design.

 

[thomask]

I had ordered pair of Rel 31 to replace two 18 inch sealed subwoofers of Scaena 3.2 while keeping main tower of it.

I also considered Rel 32 but Rel 31 will be enough in my listening room.

Also it shall be crossed at 120 hz so smaller woofer may be better in my situation.

After I get it a week from now, I will report my findings.

The REL No. 31 Subwoofer

Tracking through a time-worn favorite, The K&D Sessions, the very definition of the lower bass notes being delivered is stunning, just coming from a six-pack of REL No.25 subwoofers I lived with for two years. I loved em’ but at the end of the day, they were just a bit too large physically for...

www.tonepublications.com

The above review is informative.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I visited JimFord yesterday and saw for the first time his pair of REL No. 25s. I had no idea how big these are in person!

They are fantastic sounding, and fantastic looking, monsters!

 

[LL21]

I visited JimFord yesterday and saw for the first time his pair of REL No. 25s. I had no idea how big these are in person!

They are fantastic sounding, and fantastic looking, monsters!

Interesting...did you get a sense as to how additive they are to a system? Any further thoughts on your own potential desire to try them at some point in your own system? Again, not for achieving flat performance to 20hz (which you are already doing) but for sheer movement of air at below 35hz?

 

[gadawg58]

I can say the pair of No 25’s transformed my system and room. I had two main reasons for adding the subs .. 1st are some nasty room nodes that the subs really help take care of quite effectively. Second and as importantly as others stated it really opened up everything else. When the subs are turned off it seems as if the entire soundstage just isn’t as large or deep … still good as that is a strength of the Wilson Alexx but the subs certainly take it to the next level in my setup. In order to take care of the room nodes the subs are pretty far back from the main speakers which in my case likely makes a 6-pack less than ideal for me as the subs higher in the stack are crossed over higher and likely have a greater need to be on the same plane (especially the top sub) as the main speakers but I can’t complain!

George

 

[LL21]

I can say the pair of No 25’s transformed my system and room. I had two main reasons for adding the subs .. 1st are some nasty room nodes that the subs really help take care of quite effectively. Second and as importantly as others stated it really opened up everything else. When the subs are turned off it seems as if the entire soundstage just isn’t as large or deep … still good as that is a strength of the Wilson Alexx but the subs certainly take it to the next level in my setup. In order to take care of the room nodes the subs are pretty far back from the main speakers which in my case likely makes a 6-pack less than ideal for me as the subs higher in the stack are crossed over higher and likely have a greater need to be on the same plane (especially the top sub) as the main speakers but I can’t complain!

George

Thanks for that! Very helpful and always enjoy reading about direct experiences with equipment I am looking at, particularly when there are some similarities between systems. Enjoy!!!

 

[dbeau]

I can say the pair of No 25’s transformed my system and room.and as importantly as others stated it really opened up everything else. When the subs are turned off it seems as if the entire soundstage just isn’t as large or deep …

George

Same for my system - WA X1v3 in a 6K ft3 open living room. Mine are just outside and frontally on plane with the Wilsons.
I found that EVPs under the RELs eliminated the floor effect for a better bass support - also added Wilsons best footers to their speakers for good results.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Interesting...did you get a sense as to how additive they are to a system?

The only direct comparison we did (with and without the pair of REL No. 25s) was "Famous Blue Raincoat" on Famous Blue Raincoat. That is basically a single vocal in a single instrument.

I heard very little difference on the vocal, but, nonetheless, I still preferred it with the subs because the subs lowered slightly the sonic center of gravity of the system (sorry TimA), and slightly richened and deepened the overall foundation of the track. I could understand many people considering my "richened and deepened" as "clouded and muddied."

Putting it simply, you definitely do not need subwoofers on that particular track if you already have a full-range loudspeaker system.

Any further thoughts on your own potential desire to try them at some point in your own system? Again, not for achieving flat performance to 20hz (which you are already doing) but for sheer movement of air at below 35hz?

Unexpectedly, this is a bit of a tough one for me. I have said and written many times that "I would add subwoofers to a ham sandwich."

Even with most of my bass room boom ameliorated, and even after I raised the woofer level up to -2.0, I still have 12 steps to go (up to +10.0)!

Before I set up the system, I was assuming I would get a pair of 15" RELs someday, and I was assuming that thereafter people would think I was crazy for adding subwoofers to Pendragons (eight 8" drivers have the approximate surface area of two and a half 15" drivers). And I don't have that big of a room. But I have always had in my head that I would get a pair of 15 inch RELs someday to gild the low frequency lily, for the reasons you and I have discussed for years, Lloyd, whether I need them or not.

The in-room reality is that according to the frequency response charts, my frequency response is literally slightly rising at 20.0Hz. I am shocked by how impressive I find to be Flemming's design and implementation of the powered woofer tower concept. Of course I have never compared other woofer towers in this room, but I feel like this might be the best implementation of a self-powered woofer design ever made in the history of the industry. I am shocked by what I think I am hearing in terms of low frequency detail and texture as well as oomph and impact (of course oomph and impact is the easy part).

Aside from oomph and impact, which I know is not your question, the only intellectually honest answer is I can't be sure about the "air" and the soundstage ambience without having the RELs in the system and turning them on and off.

The lowest REL crossover setting I believe is 40 Hz. The Pendragon woofer towers sure don't need any supplement whatsoever above 30Hz. Any additional energy right above 30 Hz would contribute to the room boom node problem.

So would the RELs add some support in the 10 Hz to 15 Hz range without also goosing 30 Hz to 40 Hz? A lot of "ifs" here, I am feeling.

As much as I'd like to talk myself into REL subwoofers, I think they truly might be superfluous. And in my particular case even if we stipulate that they will add some soundstage ambience from 10 Hz to 15 Hz, am I losing more than I am gaining by likely re-energizing the room boom problem at 40 to 50 Hz?