Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[Ron Resnick]

i guess the question is do you perceive that 2 towers (one by Wilson with 2 x 15" or 3 x 12" and the other by Goebel at 8 x 9") that is specifically limited to 15hz - 80hz different from each other? The bass towers from Gryphon may well have a similar design to one and not the other...but it is being direct very different in the design. By contrast, both the Wilson and the Baforce are being directed to focus on true subterranean bass, no?

I just don’t know enough about the Baforce system to hazard a guess.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I would like Gary to chime in, but I can tell you no. Phase mismatch? Phase is adjustable on subwoofers. This has nothing to do with phase. Ported subwoofers work by producing the sound from the driver, and a slightly delayed one from the port. They create a resonance between them that allows the driver to really move. The ported subwoofers are less defined than sealed by nature. It's inevitable when you have two acoustic sources slightly off time from each other. Your bass towers don't have that, but your subwoofers would? The sound can sometimes be very different which makes matching a losing game.

. . .

Folsom, thank you for your posts here. But I just realized That something does not make sense here. If your concern and Gary’s concern is the sonic mismatch between the sealed bass tower and the ported subwoofer because the ported subwoofer produces sound directly from the driver and also slightly delayed sound from the port, then why is this even more of a problem with ported speakers? There you have the direct sound produced by thenp

Ron, what is the size of your room again, and how big are the areas open to the sides? I've been onto some thoughts about reason why you may/may not need to go with certain subwoofers setups.

Post wall construction the interior dimensions are 19.5’ wide X 24.5’ long X 14.5’ high.

The opening on the right side wall to the equipment room is about 5 feet wide, and the opening to the kitchen on the left side wall is about 10 feet wide.

To be clear I don’t think at all that I “need” any subwoofer system whatsoever. But since when is this hobby, at the WBF level, ever about “need”?

 

[Lagonda]

How about the Krell Master Reference sub’s, not ported. Or I can take one section of the ML Statement sub towers apart, give you the measurements, and you can have David make you a copy in anodized steel or aluminum, that would
look damned cool to.

 

[Folsom]

Folsom, thank you for your posts here. But I just realized That something does not make sense here. If your concern and Gary’s concern is the sonic mismatch between the sealed bass tower and the ported subwoofer because the ported subwoofer produces sound directly from the driver and also slightly delayed sound from the port, then why is this even more of a problem with ported speakers? There you have the direct sound produced by thenp



Post wall construction the interior dimensions are 19.5’ wide X 24.5’ long X 14.5’ high.

The opening on the right side wall to the equipment room is about 5 feet wide, and the opening to the kitchen on the left side wall is about 10 feet wide.

To be clear I don’t think at all that I “need” any subwoofer system whatsoever. But since when is this hobby, at the WBF level, ever about “need”?

In ported speakers the mid driver and bass drivers aren't playing the same frequencies. When you mix bass towers and subwoofers there will be some overlap. Also the mid and bass in a speaker meet at a much smaller point where even if it could be slightly less optimal because of the nature of making a speaker, the range will be countable in inches. When trying to cross bass and subwoofers you're in a zone where you might be talking about tens of feet. The merger is on very long wavelengths. You can try to cross them really steep but I've never seen it done without sounding like two separate speaker systems, and one being only low bass. That is probably due to the fact that no matter how low a speaker plays in measurements, the response is a bit choppy so you're better to smooth it out a little by crossing at a rate that isn't overly steep.

I don't mean to make ported speakers sound like they're bad, they are not. They do simply sound different, and that's the concern. I'm not entirely opposed to mixing ported subwoofers with sealed towers, but we aren't discussing "needs" are we?

 

[Folsom]

Oh, I'll have more thoughts shortly, doing a little more prying into situation with room size included.

 

[Ron Resnick]

How about the Krell Master Reference sub’s, not ported. Or I can take one section of the ML Statement sub towers apart, give you the measurements, and you can have David make you a copy in anodized steel or aluminum, that would
look damned cool to.

Krell sub is too old and too long out of production.

Your idea is kind and thoughtful but way too much work and brain damage.

But thank you!

 

[LL21]

The closest in-production version of the mighty Krell Master Reference Sub I can think of are the Magico Q15 and Q18 Subs...also dual-cone, opposite-facing design encased in inches thick solid aluminum blocks with built-in amps/crossovers.

 

[microstrip]

The closest in-production version of the mighty Krell Master Reference Sub I can think of are the Magico Q15 and Q18 Subs...also dual-cone, opposite-facing design encased in inches thick solid aluminum blocks with built-in amps/crossovers.

The Krell Master Reference Sub is servo controlled - part of its sound signature is established by the feedback control loop. Your DD18 also has a servo chip, I am not aware if Magico subs are servo controlled.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The Krell Master Reference Sub is servo controlled - part of its sound signature is established by the feedback control loop. Your DD18 also has a servo chip, I am not aware if Magico subs are servo controlled.

Magico subs are not servo-controlled.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The closest in-production version of the mighty Krell Master Reference Sub I can think of are the Magico Q15 and Q18 Subs...also dual-cone, opposite-facing design encased in inches thick solid aluminum blocks with built-in amps/crossovers.

The Magico Q-Subs are without doubt amazing, but they convert the input signal to digital, which I don’t care for. Also they are completely computer controlled (with no buttons on the machine), which I don’t care for. Finally they only work with PCs (no Apple), which I don’t care for.

 

[Lagonda]

The Magico Q-Subs are without doubt amazing, but they convert the input signal to digital, which I don’t care for. Also they are completely computer controlled (with no buttons on the machine) which I don’t care for it. Finally they only work with PCs (no Apple), which I don’t care for.

There’s hope on the windows front !
Apple now supports Windows! !

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

There’s hope on the windows front !
Apple now supports Windows! !

LOL about all its good for!

 

[Ron Resnick]

There’s hope on the windows front !
Apple now supports Windows! !

I have no patience for that computer stuff.

 

[Lagonda]

LOL about all its good for!

NO religion or politics discussed here !!!

 

[Ron Resnick]

The Stenheim Alumine Subwoofer might be the biggest, sealed, passive subwoofer:

https://www.stenheim.com/alumine-sub

 

[LL21]

Interesting Steinheim 4-tower reference.

 

[Ron Resnick]

My personal musical preference of focusing intently on the few classical pieces and the few jazz pieces and the somewhat larger number of pop and rock pieces I really love seems to be more unusual than I suspected (given the number of people who have with all good and kind and genuine intentions gently patted me on the head suggesting that I will in due time appreciate a broader range of musical interests). There certainly is a world of music out there to love, it is just that if I don’t like a new piece better than an existing piece that new piece simply is not going into rotation or into the collection. This is just the way I work on this subject. For whatever reason I only like the few pieces and tracks I really love.

So the whole purpose for me of this hobby and this listening room project and the new stereo components project and all this time and expense and brain damage is to enable me to play at the top tier of realism and authenticity and fidelity these very few classical and jazz and pop/rock pieces I happen to really love.

I got into tape in a narrow but pretty deep way for the sole purpose of being able to reproduce these favorite few tracks in, arguably, the highest fidelity audio format available. It is all about these 20 or 30 tracks that, for whatever reason, really speak to me or really engage me emotionally.

I don’t think about having the stereo to play a world of music. I literally specifically and conscientiously think about having the stereo to play Stevie Nicks’ “Landslide” and Jeff Buckley’s “Hallelujah”and Mozart’s Symphony 41 and Dave Brubeck’s Time Out, and Sarah McLachlan’s Freedom Sessions’ “Hold On,” etc.

One of my very favorites — near the very top of my list — is “Send in the Clowns" by Bill Henderson, Live at the Times (Jazz Planet Records/Classic Records). This is a track I have always used as a test track, and it is one of my very favorite recordings of all time. Literally everybody in this hobby who has met me in real life me has heard me play this track for them.

I am happy to report that I now have one of likely only two safety copies in the world of this Bill Henderson track. (Of course whomever Classic Records licensed the master tape from has the master tape). It is not too fine a point, it is not an exaggeration, to say that the entire purpose of my stereo project in general, and my tape project in particular, is to enable me to play this track on tape. If my system and tape playback in my system enables me to listen to this track in a transcendental way, then I will consider all of it to have been worth it.

I truly cannot wait to hear this track on tape!

 

[Ron Resnick]

In ported speakers the mid driver and bass drivers aren't playing the same frequencies. When you mix bass towers and subwoofers there will be some overlap. Also the mid and bass in a speaker meet at a much smaller point where even if it could be slightly less optimal because of the nature of making a speaker, the range will be countable in inches. When trying to cross bass and subwoofers you're in a zone where you might be talking about tens of feet. The merger is on very long wavelengths. You can try to cross them really steep but I've never seen it done without sounding like two separate speaker systems, and one being only low bass. That is probably due to the fact that no matter how low a speaker plays in measurements, the response is a bit choppy so you're better to smooth it out a little by crossing at a rate that isn't overly steep.

I don't mean to make ported speakers sound like they're bad, they are not. They do simply sound different, and that's the concern. I'm not entirely opposed to mixing ported subwoofers with sealed towers, but we aren't discussing "needs" are we?

Thank you for your reply, but I might have been unclear in my question. I’m not asking about combining ported midrange drivers and ported bass drivers. I’m asking about combining ported woofers in the big Wilson speakers going down to 20 or 25 Hz with ported subwoofers going even below that frequency range.

From the point of your comment a few posts up about ported drivers emitting a direct wave and a slightly delayed wave, doesn’t combining ported woofers with ported subwoofers effectively create four slightly different versions of those low frequencies?

 

[microstrip]

(...) I truly cannot wait to hear this track on tape!

Let us hope you will be hearing it very soon - I have good news for you, curiously it was the type of music that sounded great on the VTLs and made me hesitate on the Lamm's. Saying it in short - sometimes I feel music needs more beauty than emotion.

Fortunately there is no master tape around with Judy Collins "Judith" - my preferred version of Send in the Clowns. Otherwise I would have to fight for it!

 

[Folsom]

I’ll be posting a bunch later tonight, including answering that question.