A good read if you haven’t seen this,especially the comments.
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/missing-the-point/
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/missing-the-point/
Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Mark Seaton I am sure can make an amazing custom system. But I would like to figure out an off-the-shelf solution if possible.
And I do think the Subsonics are impressive, old-school subwoofers. I like the Wilson Audio cabinetry. (I know that is a big part of what one is paying for with heroically inert sparklers.)
And I do think the Subsonics are impressive, old-school subwoofers. I like the Wilson Audio cabinetry. (I know that is a big part of what one is paying for with heroically inert sparklers.)
Yes, I've been looking high and low for which subwoofers are out there (that I don't already know about). Wilson is the only one really deliberately pursuing sub 18hz without DSP. However, given that any room provides a little gain, a subwoofer that "only plays" to 18hz will go lower at a bit of reduced output. With Watch Controllers from Wilson I suspect it shouldn't be hard to get some sealed subwoofers to play impressively below their -3b mark. You can set the Q so that they have an even easier rolloff, and then bump up their output a bit.
What I'm suspecting could be a solution would be the JC1's you've been eyeballing, two Watch Controllers from Wilson, and 4 sealed subwoofers from ______ . The subwoofer recommendation is still being looked at, trying to be concerned about overall size, frequency response, construction, and type (sealed/ported).
There wouldn't be anything wrong with just using 4 Subsonics. But they are pretty big, and they are ported. To me they present a little bit of a challenge with the port. True they play at a higher output in the lowest stuff, but to get to 10hz and not account for room gain you play a funny game. You may need to turn the volume down overall because too much vinyl sound (not the music) drives you crazy having the sub 18hz actually louder than the 20-35~hz stuff. If that occurs it's hard to droop the low frequencies and also keep the stuff in the range that can reinforce the Pendragon bass towers where they begin to have modes& nodes - I don't have any ideas for that yet, balancing out the really low on a ported subwoofer along with the octave above. If you had Wilson speakers it wouldn't be a big deal since they already are kinda bumped up in the upper bass, and reduced a bit in the lower bass.
I'll probably be posting more before too long. But I will say that maybe something to think about is just having bass below 18hz is appreciable, where as the ultimate output might not be (baring home theater).
What I'm suspecting could be a solution would be the JC1's you've been eyeballing, two Watch Controllers from Wilson, and 4 sealed subwoofers from ______ . The subwoofer recommendation is still being looked at, trying to be concerned about overall size, frequency response, construction, and type (sealed/ported).
There wouldn't be anything wrong with just using 4 Subsonics. But they are pretty big, and they are ported. To me they present a little bit of a challenge with the port. True they play at a higher output in the lowest stuff, but to get to 10hz and not account for room gain you play a funny game. You may need to turn the volume down overall because too much vinyl sound (not the music) drives you crazy having the sub 18hz actually louder than the 20-35~hz stuff. If that occurs it's hard to droop the low frequencies and also keep the stuff in the range that can reinforce the Pendragon bass towers where they begin to have modes& nodes - I don't have any ideas for that yet, balancing out the really low on a ported subwoofer along with the octave above. If you had Wilson speakers it wouldn't be a big deal since they already are kinda bumped up in the upper bass, and reduced a bit in the lower bass.
I'll probably be posting more before too long. But I will say that maybe something to think about is just having bass below 18hz is appreciable, where as the ultimate output might not be (baring home theater).
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I am glad you are good on the JC1s and the Subsonics. But I never will be able to swing four Subsonics (unless Wilson Audio offers a “two for one” sale).
These look interesting.....
Using a TAD 15 Woofer...considered one of the best in the world.
http://www.aps-company.com/sub15-en/
At 7800.00 not exorbitant and the TAD woofer is extremely fast and dynamic. I believe a passive preamp would be needed or active to adjust the input level.
Using a TAD 15 Woofer...considered one of the best in the world.
http://www.aps-company.com/sub15-en/
At 7800.00 not exorbitant and the TAD woofer is extremely fast and dynamic. I believe a passive preamp would be needed or active to adjust the input level.
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here is what you need for those pesky very low frequencies.....
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/eminent-technology-trw-17-rotary-subwoofer
really 'getting down'. why mess around, might as well shake the house down.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/eminent-technology-trw-17-rotary-subwoofer
really 'getting down'. why mess around, might as well shake the house down.
Thank you for posting about this Mike. I actually am familiar with this product. I researched it sometime ago.
I appreciate the thought but I have no room behind the front wall or behind the back wall of the listening room to build the box to contain this thing.
I appreciate the thought but I have no room behind the front wall or behind the back wall of the listening room to build the box to contain this thing.
So I've got a possibility for you.
I've chatted a bit with Nathan Funk. While I know "off the shelf" would be nice, I have not realistically found anything that would accomplish any of your intention. Wilson could nearly fit the bill except that the price, well... it's not for everyone.
Sealed passive subwoofers could be made that are a taller version. The boxes are approximately 2x2' and the passive versions would taller at either 36" for the 21" driver, or 45" for the 24" inch drive. These will play down into the 10hz range. There is a clear point to be made however and that is the JC1 is underpowered unless you used 1 per subwoofer, and had the amp next to the subwoofer - and the subwoofer driver would be a slightly different one. It's a lot of fuss when 4x JC1s can be substituted for 2 JC5s without needing the proximity or different subwoofer driver.
So an easy recap of a suggested setup:
4x Passive Funks, either 21" or 24" drivers.
2x Parasound JC5 amplifiers
2x Wilson Watch Controllers
(and X amount of feet of some speaker wire, I suggest 4S11, which can easily terminated, and inexpensive balanced IC's from BJC)
I think that would work for you. It uses an amplifier designed by the same guy who did the JC1 (John Curl, regular poster on another forum). It will compliment the sealed Pendragons, and be able to smooth out modes & nodes while giving a much more immersive experience. The boxes are not MDF, as you've stated numerous times is not up to standard. And it won't financially cost as much as another Ferrari.
I've chatted a bit with Nathan Funk. While I know "off the shelf" would be nice, I have not realistically found anything that would accomplish any of your intention. Wilson could nearly fit the bill except that the price, well... it's not for everyone.
Sealed passive subwoofers could be made that are a taller version. The boxes are approximately 2x2' and the passive versions would taller at either 36" for the 21" driver, or 45" for the 24" inch drive. These will play down into the 10hz range. There is a clear point to be made however and that is the JC1 is underpowered unless you used 1 per subwoofer, and had the amp next to the subwoofer - and the subwoofer driver would be a slightly different one. It's a lot of fuss when 4x JC1s can be substituted for 2 JC5s without needing the proximity or different subwoofer driver.
So an easy recap of a suggested setup:
4x Passive Funks, either 21" or 24" drivers.
2x Parasound JC5 amplifiers
2x Wilson Watch Controllers
(and X amount of feet of some speaker wire, I suggest 4S11, which can easily terminated, and inexpensive balanced IC's from BJC)
I think that would work for you. It uses an amplifier designed by the same guy who did the JC1 (John Curl, regular poster on another forum). It will compliment the sealed Pendragons, and be able to smooth out modes & nodes while giving a much more immersive experience. The boxes are not MDF, as you've stated numerous times is not up to standard. And it won't financially cost as much as another Ferrari.
I really appreciate the work you have done on this project, Folsom! Thank you!
But I am significantly concerned about using 18” or 24” drivers. I am afraid they will be too slow to keep up with the 8” driver woofer towers.
I also find it very telling that, over time, Wilson Audio has evolved their biggest subwoofer from 18”’drivers to 15” drivers to 12” drivers.
Finally, another data point is that my friend who has similar woofer towers to mine found that 15” subwoofers were too slow to keep up with his 8” drivers. He decided to go with 12” subwoofer drivers.
I think two Subsonics may be the right place for me to start, if I proceed in a few years with this infrasonic subwoofer project.
But I am significantly concerned about using 18” or 24” drivers. I am afraid they will be too slow to keep up with the 8” driver woofer towers.
I also find it very telling that, over time, Wilson Audio has evolved their biggest subwoofer from 18”’drivers to 15” drivers to 12” drivers.
Finally, another data point is that my friend who has similar woofer towers to mine found that 15” subwoofers were too slow to keep up with his 8” drivers. He decided to go with 12” subwoofer drivers.
I think two Subsonics may be the right place for me to start, if I proceed in a few years with this infrasonic subwoofer project.
My trusted ear on the subject says the Funk units are very detailed, more so than servo subwoofers. What will sound the most unnatural is modes & nodes, and will also sound the slowest. Even bass doesn't sound slow. One of the reasons is we can't actually hear this sub 20hz stuff, the ques as to its existence outside of the rumble we feel is much higher octave information being played by the speaker. I would suggest taking note from Christians recent toe-out experience. His bass was bloated when it was over-emphasized, not because his larger drivers "slowed down".
Without a lot more data, I wouldn't take the 15" to 12" comparison to heart too strongly. What frequency range? Placement identical? What kind of Q settings? So many questions.
Anyways, I've provided the most information I believe I can, so now we all await for you to actually be able to live in your house to see all of the accumulated decisions you've made realized.
Without a lot more data, I wouldn't take the 15" to 12" comparison to heart too strongly. What frequency range? Placement identical? What kind of Q settings? So many questions.
Anyways, I've provided the most information I believe I can, so now we all await for you to actually be able to live in your house to see all of the accumulated decisions you've made realized.
Following up on Folsom’s communications on my behalf with Nathan Funk of Funk Audio, a subwoofer specialist in Canada, I just had a long and very interesting telephone conversation with Nathan. Nathan was very patient as I asked my questions, and very generous with his time and his answers.
It turns out that Nathan not only cuts, fabricates and finishes his own 1.5” thick Baltic birch cabinets, and can also work with exotic non-wood materials such as Corian and aluminum, but Nathan also fabricates his own 18”, 21” and 24” drivers!
https://www.funkaudio.ca/
I wrote to Nathan:
My full range speakers employ woofer columns consisting of eight 8” drivers in a vertical array, which are rated at approximately -3dB at 16 Hz. The subwoofer system would focus on the frequency range of below 10 Hz to approximately 25 Hz.
I would use Class AB solid-state amplifiers (Parasound JC1s) to drive the subwoofers. I would use two Wilson Watch Controllers to implement low-pass, slope, phase adjustment and level functions.
1) Nathan advises that the four or more subwoofers “swarm“ concept works best when the subwoofers can be placed approximately equidistant from the listening position. My listening room will not allow for this because my listening position will be only a few feet in front of the rear wall.
Because my listening chair is not closer to the halfway point or even to the one-third point in the room Nathan thinks that the swarm concept is not the right solution for the layout of my listening space.
2) Nathan says that the ideal cabinet size for a given driver size is a function of the components and of the electrical and acoustic characteristics of the driver. It is not simply the case that the bigger the box, the lower the low frequency response.
3) I expressed concern that a 21 inch driver might be “slower” sounding and lower in resolution and manifest greater “bloat” than an 18 inch driver or a 15 inch driver. I said that in audiophile land we tend to think that, all else being equal, the smaller the driver the “faster” the bass and the higher the resolution and the greater the texture we will hear in those low frequencies.
Nathan suggested that it is just not the case that one can assume that a larger driver is going to be higher in distortion and bloat and lower in resolution than a smaller driver. He says measured distortion and perceived resolution are functions of all of the relevant factors, including the driver surface material as well as the size and the quality of the motor.
Because my intention for the subwoofer system is to reproduce very low frequency ambient acoustic information of low amplitude, Nathan agreed that I do not really have to worry about distortion at high SPLs. Nathan recommended his 21 inch driver.
But I said that I had trouble getting comfortable with the idea that a driver that large could be low in distortion. (I really do find it very interesting, and possibly very telling, that Wilson Audio has evolved its top-of-the-line subwoofer from 18 inch to 15 inch to 12 inch drivers.)
We decided to focus on his 18 inch driver using his highest quality, heaviest motor assembly.
4) Rightly or wrongly, I said that I like the idea of low frequencies not coming out of merely a box sitting on the floor. I expressed my view is that I like the idea of a fairly tall driver system. Using two 18 inch drivers Nathan recommends a cabinet height of about 48 to 50 inches.
5) We discussed a dual-opposed configuration of drivers rather than one driver on top of the other, but given the low amplitude the subwoofer system is likely to have to deal with Nathan sees no major benefit in the dual-opposed arrangement to cancel opposing forces.
6) For the same reason Nathan sees no advantage in putting each individual driver in its own enclosure, and then bolting together or simply resting on footers one self-contained enclosure on top of the other self-contained enclosure.
One advantage of a single 18 inch driver in each of four separate enclosures is that I would have the flexibility to experiment with a limited swarm concept
by being able to spread the subwoofers around in four different locations in the front of the room (keeping each box fairly equidistant from the listening position) or double them up, one box on top of another.
7) Nathan mentioned that he has made a custom enclosure for a customer consisting of 1 inch or 1.5 inch thick Baltic birch on the inside covered on all sides by 1/2 inch aluminum. The purpose of the internal wood box is to dampen any resonance or ringing from the exterior aluminum box. So this would be a box in a box: a Baltic birch box inside an aluminum box.
Nathan said he didn’t know a priori whether greater aluminum ringing dampening could be achieved if the aluminum box were the inside material and the Baltic birch were the outside box, or if, as he did it before, he the wood box is inside the aluminum box. I like the idea of a box in a box for mass reasons and to dampen any resonance.
8) Nathan said he can tune the coils of the drivers to present a low impedance load to the JC1 amps, to maximize the power coming out of the amps.
================================================================
Which makes more theoretical sense? To have the wood box inside the aluminum box, or to have the aluminum box inside the wood box?
As much as I like the Wilson Audio Subsonics and their X material resin cabinets, this custom sealed box idea would moot concerns about integrating sealed woofer towers with ported subwoofers. And if Nathan can make aluminum box and Baltic birch boxes and combine them I have to believe his cabinet will get within spitting distance of the mass and of the rigidity of the amazing Wilson Audio cabinets. What do you think?
It turns out that Nathan not only cuts, fabricates and finishes his own 1.5” thick Baltic birch cabinets, and can also work with exotic non-wood materials such as Corian and aluminum, but Nathan also fabricates his own 18”, 21” and 24” drivers!
https://www.funkaudio.ca/
I wrote to Nathan:
My full range speakers employ woofer columns consisting of eight 8” drivers in a vertical array, which are rated at approximately -3dB at 16 Hz. The subwoofer system would focus on the frequency range of below 10 Hz to approximately 25 Hz.
I would use Class AB solid-state amplifiers (Parasound JC1s) to drive the subwoofers. I would use two Wilson Watch Controllers to implement low-pass, slope, phase adjustment and level functions.
1) Nathan advises that the four or more subwoofers “swarm“ concept works best when the subwoofers can be placed approximately equidistant from the listening position. My listening room will not allow for this because my listening position will be only a few feet in front of the rear wall.
Because my listening chair is not closer to the halfway point or even to the one-third point in the room Nathan thinks that the swarm concept is not the right solution for the layout of my listening space.
2) Nathan says that the ideal cabinet size for a given driver size is a function of the components and of the electrical and acoustic characteristics of the driver. It is not simply the case that the bigger the box, the lower the low frequency response.
3) I expressed concern that a 21 inch driver might be “slower” sounding and lower in resolution and manifest greater “bloat” than an 18 inch driver or a 15 inch driver. I said that in audiophile land we tend to think that, all else being equal, the smaller the driver the “faster” the bass and the higher the resolution and the greater the texture we will hear in those low frequencies.
Nathan suggested that it is just not the case that one can assume that a larger driver is going to be higher in distortion and bloat and lower in resolution than a smaller driver. He says measured distortion and perceived resolution are functions of all of the relevant factors, including the driver surface material as well as the size and the quality of the motor.
Because my intention for the subwoofer system is to reproduce very low frequency ambient acoustic information of low amplitude, Nathan agreed that I do not really have to worry about distortion at high SPLs. Nathan recommended his 21 inch driver.
But I said that I had trouble getting comfortable with the idea that a driver that large could be low in distortion. (I really do find it very interesting, and possibly very telling, that Wilson Audio has evolved its top-of-the-line subwoofer from 18 inch to 15 inch to 12 inch drivers.)
We decided to focus on his 18 inch driver using his highest quality, heaviest motor assembly.
4) Rightly or wrongly, I said that I like the idea of low frequencies not coming out of merely a box sitting on the floor. I expressed my view is that I like the idea of a fairly tall driver system. Using two 18 inch drivers Nathan recommends a cabinet height of about 48 to 50 inches.
5) We discussed a dual-opposed configuration of drivers rather than one driver on top of the other, but given the low amplitude the subwoofer system is likely to have to deal with Nathan sees no major benefit in the dual-opposed arrangement to cancel opposing forces.
6) For the same reason Nathan sees no advantage in putting each individual driver in its own enclosure, and then bolting together or simply resting on footers one self-contained enclosure on top of the other self-contained enclosure.
One advantage of a single 18 inch driver in each of four separate enclosures is that I would have the flexibility to experiment with a limited swarm concept
by being able to spread the subwoofers around in four different locations in the front of the room (keeping each box fairly equidistant from the listening position) or double them up, one box on top of another.
7) Nathan mentioned that he has made a custom enclosure for a customer consisting of 1 inch or 1.5 inch thick Baltic birch on the inside covered on all sides by 1/2 inch aluminum. The purpose of the internal wood box is to dampen any resonance or ringing from the exterior aluminum box. So this would be a box in a box: a Baltic birch box inside an aluminum box.
Nathan said he didn’t know a priori whether greater aluminum ringing dampening could be achieved if the aluminum box were the inside material and the Baltic birch were the outside box, or if, as he did it before, he the wood box is inside the aluminum box. I like the idea of a box in a box for mass reasons and to dampen any resonance.
8) Nathan said he can tune the coils of the drivers to present a low impedance load to the JC1 amps, to maximize the power coming out of the amps.
================================================================
Which makes more theoretical sense? To have the wood box inside the aluminum box, or to have the aluminum box inside the wood box?
As much as I like the Wilson Audio Subsonics and their X material resin cabinets, this custom sealed box idea would moot concerns about integrating sealed woofer towers with ported subwoofers. And if Nathan can make aluminum box and Baltic birch boxes and combine them I have to believe his cabinet will get within spitting distance of the mass and of the rigidity of the amazing Wilson Audio cabinets. What do you think?
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I hope you are not being shy about your preferences in the looks department, i just don’t see you as a guy that could live with two big boring cabinets in your
listening room, no matter how low they go.
You like pretty things, nothing wrong with that !
Great convo Ron.
It sounds like it's possible to try out essentially everything, without losing potentially anything. Although, did he not recommend the JC5 over the JC1? I guess it depends on how many amps you're wanting. (4 vs 2?) Perhaps the 18's just don't need as much power?
I have no idea what Lagonda is going on about, the Funk enclosures are beautiful.
It sounds like it's possible to try out essentially everything, without losing potentially anything. Although, did he not recommend the JC5 over the JC1? I guess it depends on how many amps you're wanting. (4 vs 2?) Perhaps the 18's just don't need as much power?
I have no idea what Lagonda is going on about, the Funk enclosures are beautiful.
I hope you are not being shy about your preferences in the looks department, i just don’t see you as a guy that could live with two big boring cabinets in your
listening room, no matter how low they go.
You like pretty things, nothing wrong with that !
No speaker does much for me aesthetically. Maybe the Cessaros in audioquattr’s color are interesting-looking.
If I want big subwoofers in a big box there is only so much you can do with that aesthetically. With Wilson Audio I could match one of their automotive colors to the color of the Pendragon cabinets. I would’ve liked the Pendragons in a light great or a medium gray color, but they came in black or near-black.
Depending on whether Nathan uses wood or aluminum as the exterior material, I’m sure he could come up with a nice-looking dark gray or charcoal or black finish of some kind to match the Pendragons.
Ron,
Good. So are you thinking about 4 individual cabinets as a swarm or 2 dual 18’s in a single cabinet?
Btw the fastest bass and most impressive presentation I ever heard was a single Hartley 24 that was slot loaded into the crawl space of the home.
My dual 16 and the 18 can be impressive too.
The dual 16 I had finished in Teak wood to match my satellites...I consider it not just a box,but a very nice piece of furniture. My Velodyne in black stands out like a sore thumb compared.
I think you will be playing more classical,Frederick Fennell and maybe even great pipe organ recordings.
Good. So are you thinking about 4 individual cabinets as a swarm or 2 dual 18’s in a single cabinet?
Btw the fastest bass and most impressive presentation I ever heard was a single Hartley 24 that was slot loaded into the crawl space of the home.
My dual 16 and the 18 can be impressive too.
The dual 16 I had finished in Teak wood to match my satellites...I consider it not just a box,but a very nice piece of furniture. My Velodyne in black stands out like a sore thumb compared.
I think you will be playing more classical,Frederick Fennell and maybe even great pipe organ recordings.
There is some elegance in using the Wilson Audio Watch Controllers and the Wilson Audio endorsed amplifiers with a possibly theoretically better (sealed subwoofers to match sealed speakers, and custom-designed for 25Hz and below) and less expensive but true custom Funk Audio passive subwoofers. We could call these dual 18” Funks “Super Thors.”
And if for some reason I ever wanted to try the Wilson Audio Subsonics in the future I could simply drop them into the exact same controller and amplifier system.
And if for some reason I ever wanted to try the Wilson Audio Subsonics in the future I could simply drop them into the exact same controller and amplifier system.
Ron,
Good. So are you thinking about 4 individual cabinets as a swarm or 2 dual 18’s in a single cabinet?
Btw the fastest bass and most impressive presentation I ever heard was a single Hartley 24 that was slot loaded into the crawl space of the home.
My dual 16 and the 18 can be impressive too.
The dual 16 I had finished in Teak wood to match my satellites...I consider it not just a box,but a very nice piece of furniture. My Velodyne in black stands out like a sore thumb compared.
I think you will be playing more classical,Frederick Fennell and maybe even great pipe organ recordings.
Based on 1) above Nathan and I focused on a stereo pair of two front-firing 18” drivers in a single very heavy cabinet (two cabinets in total, two drivers per cabinet, four drivers in total). That would be a whole lot of old-school woofing! (Are you hearing this Big Dog RJ?)
Well i think the Pendragons are beautiful , one of Gryphons strong suits is good looks and they say black makes you look slimmer.
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