Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

RogerD

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Based on 1) above Nathan and I focused on a stereo pair of two front-firing 18” drivers in a single very heavy cabinet (two cabinets in total, two drivers per cabinet, four drivers in total). That would be a whole lot of old-school woofing! (Are you hearing this Big Dog RJ?)

I like your plan! There is a lot of plus’s to moving lot’s of air in a large space. Especially when the bass is extremely clean and articulate. The soundstage is most impressive and to pressurize your room correctly I think dual 18’s will add to a realism that can be felt.
I run mine at low volume and they produce big smiles.
 

Duke LeJeune

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Nathan advises that the four or more subwoofers “swarm“ concept works best when the subwoofers can be placed approximately equidistant from the listening position. My listening room will not allow for this because my listening position will be only a few feet in front of the rear wall.

I hope you don't mind me replying. I make a four-piece subwoofer system called the Swarm.

The basic idea of course is to spread the multiple subs around the room in a manner that smooths the in-room frequency response. The premise is that the in-room response smoothness is what matters the most. Let me explain:

At low frequencies speakers + room = a "minimum phase" system, which means that the frequency response and the time-domain response track one another. So, fix one and you have fixed the other. Bass traps improve the time-domain response directly and therefore indirectly improve the frequency response. A distributed multisub system improves the frequency response (throughout the room typically) and therefore indirectly improves the time-domain response.

Intuitively it would seem that having the arrival time be the same at the listening position for all four subs (implying equidistant placement) would be the ideal. In my opinion higher priority should be given to in-room smoothness. So this is where I disagree with Nathan Funk (though I agree with pretty much everything else he said).

You see, the ear/brain system has very poor time-domain resolution at low frequencies, such that minor differences in arrival time are inconsequential in and of themselves. The ear is incapable of even detecting the presence of bass energy from less than one wavelength, and from 80 Hz to 20 Hz we're talking about wavelengths from 14 feet to 56 feet long. So arrival time differences that correspond to a small fraction of a wavelength are not going to make an audible difference, as long as the blend with the main speakers is good.

But what the ear/brain system IS very good at is, hearing differences in sound pressure level in the bass region. This is revealed by looking at a set of equal-loudness curves, which bunch up south of 100 Hz. A 5 or 6 dB difference at 40 Hz can be as big a change in perceived loudness as a 10 dB change a 1 kHz. This is why we can hear the bass so much better when we turn the master volume up.

When we have in-room peaks, two bad things are going on: First, those peaks stick out like sore thumbs even worse than we might think from eyeballing the curve, because of the ear's heightened sensitivity to SPL differences in the bass region. Second, those peaks decay into inaudibility SLOWER than the the rest of the bass region, and therefore blur subsequent notes and degrade clarity (resulting in "boomy", "muddy", or "slow" bass).

The good news is, when we improve the in-room frequency response (simultaneously improving the time-domain response), the subjective improvement tends to be greater than we'd expect based on eyeballing the before-and-after curves. In my experience, improvements in in-room smoothness pay unexpectedly large subjective dividends.

Now there is a bit more to my Swarm setup suggestions than simply spreading four subs around the room. I suggest using the phase control settings and/or the polarity of the individual subwoofers, as well as possibly plugging some or all of the ports on the individual subs, along with pretty much anything else that is reasonable feasible and improves the in-room bass smoothness.

In other words, I consider the in-room bass response smoothness (including smoothness of integration with the main speakers) to be the thing that matters most because it lies in the domain that we hear the best. And I subordinate pretty much every other consideration in its pursuit, including the simultaneous arrival-time one would theoretically get with equidistant placement.

Mind if I indulge in an anecdote? At RMAF 2018 we had a veteran cable manufacturer spend a fair amount of time in our room. He has literally decades of experience with audio shows. We played his reference recording, of "Fanfare for the Common Man", which I think was the same version as on Wilson Audio's demo disc. Anyway he said it was the most natural-sounding reproduction of those tympani he had ever heard, and he was including a lot of big names (in a lot of big rooms) when he made that statement. "That's what a tympani sounds like" he said, and then went into detail about what he was hearing that corresponded with hearing tympani live. The Swarm in that room was not set up with any consideration given to synchronizing the arrival times; on the contrary, the placement was deliberately asymmetrical and we had the left-hand pair of subs in phase quadrature (shifted 90 degrees) relative to the right-hand pair of subs.
 
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Ron Resnick

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I think that LL21, and maybe even DDK, will bless the exploration of the infrasonic world with pairs of passive 18” cones in old school 48” X 24” X 24” Baltic birch boxes lined with aluminum with Class AB amplification by John Curl.
 

LL21

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Awesome Ron. I really like the customization...super knowledgeable people designing for your system, your room...and your preferences. More than anything else, THAT is what I like to read about and learn from. Informed design.
 
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LL21

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I think that LL21, and maybe even DDK, will bless the exploration of the infrasonic world with pairs of passive 18” cones in old school 48” X 24” X 24” Baltic birch boxes lined with aluminum with Class AB amplification by John Curl.

I have no complaints!
 

Folsom

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Ron, did you mention the large openings in your room to Nathan? I ask because he may have felt that a swarm style would make more sense in that event. The reason is because if your room was sealed a single Funk could potentially reinforce everything below 20hz as well as possibly needed, limited by only the SPL, so more than one subwoofer driver would make sense. But with the opening you can get modes & nodes below 20hz, for the waves going through them. They won't be as bad, but my point being the differences in choices of setup.

I'm glad Duke posted. He's a very smart guy when it comes to this stuff, and his demos are unforgettable for what the bass does. On a side note he looks good with short hair, too (use to rep long hair).
 
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ddk

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I think that LL21, and maybe even DDK, will bless the exploration of the infrasonic world with pairs of passive 18” cones in old school 48” X 24” X 24” Baltic birch boxes lined with aluminum with Class AB amplification by John Curl.
I have no idea what we’re looking at over here, which drivers and cabinets? Who’s crossovers? Why John Curl amps? Why class ab when class A is available?

david
 
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RogerD

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I have no idea what we’re looking at over here, which drivers and cabinets? Who’s crossovers? Why John Curl amps? Why class ab when class A is available?

david
Just asking...why would a class A amplifier be better, when you need more power than most A amps provide for a subwoofer?
 

ddk

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Just asking...why would a class A amplifier be better, when you need more power than most A amps provide for a subwoofer?
Quality matters and a properly designed Class A amp sounds better than the equivalent AB, this is a known fact. This is my opinion but requiring more than 50w for a sub in domestic environment is unnecessary. Subs for playing music in a high end two channel music system are different from theater ones that have to play explosions, fake distorted sound effects or Rap at higher SPLs.

David
 
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RogerD

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Quality matters and a properly designed Class A amp sounds better than the equivalent AB, this is a known fact. This is my opinion but requiring more than 50w for a sub in domestic environment is unnecessary. Subs for playing music in a high end two channel music system are different from theater ones that have to play explosions, fake distorted sound effects or Rap at higher SPLs.

David
I use a 200 Wpc on my dual 16 with a SS amp...The clipping indicator never comes on. I do think a class AB would perform well, mine does fine.
 

Folsom

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He’s looking at Wilson Watch Controllers. No speaker level crossovers. The Funk drivers are closer to pro drivers. That actually makes them more similar to JBL/vintage than what you’ll find in any Wilson or such. Very powerful magnets instead of giant resistor voice coils. They are very sensitive.

I totally disagree that 50w is enough. Class A is great but for subwoofers? Almsot all the advantages are moot. You can’t get much output at 10hz at all with only 50w. And sometimes these guys listen pretty loud in their big rooms. But because the Funks are very sensitive the amps would operate in class A a lot of the time anyways. (JC1/5)

If my goal was to be unoffensive with subs, and not have to integrate them much... then I’d probably go the DDK way. But I think you can do better with more work.
 

Folsom

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Ron, I could check with JC himself about whether or not the JC5 would be an equivalent to the JC1, if Nathan is suggesting more juice.
 

ddk

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I use a 200 Wpc on my dual 16 with a SS amp...The clipping indicator never comes on. I do think a class AB would perform well, mine does fine.
Exactly my point you don’t need much power for music, have you tried a lower wattage Class A amplification with your subs?
david
 

ddk

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He’s looking at Wilson Watch Controllers. No speaker level crossovers. The Funk drivers are closer to pro drivers. That actually makes them more similar to JBL/vintage than what you’ll find in any Wilson or such. Very powerful magnets instead of giant resistor voice coils. They are very sensitive.

I totally disagree that 50w is enough. Class A is great but for subwoofers? Almsot all the advantages are moot. You can’t get much output at 10hz at all with only 50w. And sometimes these guys listen pretty loud in their big rooms. But because the Funks are very sensitive the amps would operate in class A a lot of the time anyways. (JC1/5)

If my goal was to be unoffensive with subs, and not have to integrate them much... then I’d probably go the DDK way. But I think you can do better with more work.

Not to integrate, are you being funny:D? Besides what does low sensitivity and high power consumption have to with integration?

With 112 dB sensitivity theater horns I can play louder without any distortion than any other system here, even at near ear bleed levels efficient well integrated subs require little power; 10watts or less with the vintage JBLs that you mentioned.

What are offensive and unoffensive subs? Don’t you think you should hear mine or at least a system I’ve setup before concluding what my way is?

david
 
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RogerD

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Exactly my point you don’t need much power for music, have you tried a lower wattage Class A amplification with your subs?
david
I have class A tube amps and was not impressed with them on LF. I think it depends on matching the sub and amp.
 

ddk

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I have class A tube amps and was not impressed with them on LF. I think it depends on matching the sub and amp.
Not knowing your components I can’t comment but design of the subs was also part of my argument and higher efficiency is an important quality for me.

david
 

Folsom

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Not to integrate, are you being funny:D? Besides what does low sensitivity and high power consumption have to with integration?

With 112 dB sensitivity theater horns I can play louder without any distortion than any other system here, even at near ear bleed levels efficient well integrated subs require little power; 10watts or less with the vintage JBLs that you mentioned.

What are offensive and unoffensive subs? Don’t you think you should hear mine or at least a system I’ve setup before concluding what my way is?

david

David I think you are expecting more resistance to what you like than I am actually giving.

When you have subs running on lower watts the clipping isn’t audible hardly ever. They won’t excite modes much, but aren’t going to smooth nodes into more usable music either. But what ranges are we talking? The discussion is really about 30hz and below here. (Nothing over 50hz for sure). IIRC you have to run higher, so you’ve got more concerns.

Integration can mean a few things. In your case you mostly certainly mean character of drivers/design, and obviously phase being huge. But I am also refering to a more flat FR because that has been at large a big topic. You can’t have that earth rumbling bass, that gutteral presence of god type stuff off of a few watts and if you have lots of watts a very even response is needed.

Unoffensive as in they don’t cause any unnatural bloat or such, slowness, etc. It’s easier to get there than to get to sheer power with intense finesse.

And anyways, the Funks are very efficient, with distortion lower than pretty well all the audiophile type drivers. You might just be a fan some day. The ferrite magnet ones have magnets that weigh 100lbs by themselves... clearly not akin to the giant VC monsters found in many audiophile grade subs, and much more like vintage ones that use powerful magnets to get high sensitivity. But they don’t have problems that vintage drivers do.
 

cjfrbw

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As long as you have a listening session every day with those woofs, you'll never need to eat roughage again.

BTW, those Funk cabinets are VERY attractive.
 

ddk

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David I think you are expecting more resistance to what you like than I am actually giving.

When you have subs running on lower watts the clipping isn’t audible hardly ever. They won’t excite modes much, but aren’t going to smooth nodes into more usable music either. But what ranges are we talking? The discussion is really about 30hz and below here. (Nothing over 50hz for sure). IIRC you have to run higher, so you’ve got more concerns.

Integration can mean a few things. In your case you mostly certainly mean character of drivers/design, and obviously phase being huge. But I am also refering to a more flat FR because that has been at large a big topic. You can’t have that earth rumbling bass, that gutteral presence of god type stuff off of a few watts and if you have lots of watts a very even response is needed.

Unoffensive as in they don’t cause any unnatural bloat or such, slowness, etc. It’s easier to get there than to get to sheer power with intense finesse.

And anyways, the Funks are very efficient, with distortion lower than pretty well all the audiophile type drivers. You might just be a fan some day. The ferrite magnet ones have magnets that weigh 100lbs by themselves... clearly not akin to the giant VC monsters found in many audiophile grade subs, and much more like vintage ones that use powerful magnets to get high sensitivity. But they don’t have problems that vintage drivers do.

I know we’re looking at below 30hz just looking at it differently.

“You can’t have that earth rumbling bass, that gutteral presence of god type stuff off of a few watts and if you have lots of watts a very even response is needed.”

Lots of watts are needed because of inefficiency and that earth rumbling and gutteral experience is what I might call nauseating specially if it’s Omni present. I’m unfamiliar with Funks, my reply was to Ron and his hypothetical based on what I’d look for. I’m just not a fan of speakers that soak up a lot of power, it’s a different approach and IME low level nuance and subtle delicacies of music are muscled out and there’s plenty of it at 30hz. Anyway final decision is Ron’s!

david
 
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microstrip

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(...) The Funk drivers are closer to pro drivers. That actually makes them more similar to JBL/vintage than what you’ll find in any Wilson or such. Very powerful magnets instead of giant resistor voice coils. They are very sensitive.

Do you have data on their sensitivity? All I could find is that they are usually shipped with 2400 or 4800W amplifiers ...
 
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