Seattle report: Mike's System, Bruce B, Jazdoc, EA MM7, NVS, Darts, etc

[PeterA]

One interesting side note, even though our listening environments, musical preferences and equipment are quite different, I believe that Mike L's, Joel's and my systems have all moved to a more similar sonic signature over time.

That is a key point. As systems, and individual components, improve, that is, they sound more like the real thing, does it not follow, that their respective sonic signatures tend to be less noticeable, and their overall sound, or lack of sound, seems to be more similar rather then different? I have found this with good tube amps and SS amps. The best ones sound more similar than different. Same with great analog and digital. There are still differences, but they are becoming less obvious. People have hinted in this thread when discussing Mike's system, that there is not much sonic signature left to the system or to the room, and that one is less conscious of the sound of the system, thus leaving him alone with the just the music. This seems to be Mike's goal, and that of many audiophiles/music lovers.

I was struck by Bonzo's comment about the WE speakers on the other side of Mike's room for a completely different sound. If that indeed would be the case, then either each speaker does something different exceptionally well, overwhelming its weaknesses, to remind the listener of real music, or, one of the speakers is more removed from the sound of the real thing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike I would like to say that would have come with or without my amp. That was just icing on an already fantastic, layered, huge cake, that I'm very grateful for and is very helpful to me. And I didn't mention my amplifier since there's no real point (it's a thread about Mike L's place), but just to be clear for everyone reading using it was nice to give an AB type scenario so that I have something to establish some thoughts on.

I did sense that you were surprised at my comment on the amplifiers. But I can't retract them because I had the thought the first night after I came back to reality of the shock and awe of what a soundstage really means. Keep in mind my first thoughts were holy crap this sounds good, and they do other things way beyond the capabilities of most things I've heard. And I believe there's great possibility that even more could be milked from them. They're impressive amps, without a doubt. I specifically said that I now believe DartZeel is a company to be respected and meant it. But there are things I seek in amps that may or may not be what someone else is looking for at all. Please accept that I'm ever critical, because I need to be when I'm trying to design equipment. It's challenging to not come off as discounting something that I like, when I also say that it has features that may or may not jive with me. Perhaps saying this will give a good point to the subject, I'd be very happy to listen to them again (and hope I do! next meet, or maybe with some other forum guests?), and if I had to choose the last stereo I could ever have without changing anything, it would be yours.

Listening to other people's stereo's is a lot of fun, and I actually like that we as people do enjoy hearing different things. I'm happy that people have differences in things they're attracted to. I'd be a little disappointed if every stereo I heard sounded the same And so yes, I do have my partialalities too, which I full accept and won't deny.

Folsom,

I don't expect or want you to retract anything. all feedback and listening perceptions are valid. only that using my system as a test place for your pride and joy amplifier is a factor involved in judging your feedback. and readers need to know that and judge for themselves.

you made the clear choice to criticize my amplifiers, you did not need to do that. but you did. so then I felt I needed to disclose your perspective. you caused me to do that. I would have preferred not to.

you were not a casual visitor without any baggage, you had an agenda. nothing hidden or nefarious at all. but real none-the-less.

if someone brings any product they personally build to my room and then comments on how a product I own sounds compared to theirs then any reader needs to know the context to judge.

it's not for me to judge what you say, it's for the reader with full disclosure to judge.

would another visitor using my room to hear their creation compared to mine make negative comments about mine? that....is a question.

 

[853guy]

To Jazdoc's set-up comment, Mike still has the room and has gone through uber gear to diligently try all permutations and combinations possible that has led him here. Most of us do not have that room luxury. The unfortunate thing that many audiophiles than do, is shove in a big speaker because - well, because they want BIG. I respect Lissnr, one of the not so frequent posters here, who sold off his bigger Apogee to get the smaller Duetta and now has a great room, just because they fit in perfect.

Once you have the speaker for the room, you can try various combos. Many will also not have the luxury to move speakers and chairs by a big margin. So one has to be careful whether he has a Mike/Marty room, a dedicated smaller but treated room like Steve or Bruce, or just a normal living room, and whether it's small or big.

I gave up on SF Elipsa's because they didn't work in the room (I could never give them the space they wanted). I gave up on Living Voice OBX-RW's because in order to sound amazing they needed to be placed at the half-way point and toed-in for extreme near-field listening that made a mockery of the doors and floor space (I could give them the space, but they rendered it impractical to use). One of the reasons I love (and harp on about) ESL57's and LS3/5a's is they both require far less real estate and make near-field not only possible, but musically beneficial. For those without dedicated spaces, near-field can provide a listening experience that ameliorates some (but not all) of a room's deficiencies. ProAc Tablettes, AE Mk III Classics and SF Cremona Auditor M's also suited near-field listening, but had other issues I won't mention here.

Glad you had a great time, Bonzo. Looking forward to more from the blog...

 

[Al M.]

Casear,

Point well taken. If you are unwilling to invest the time and effort, by all means, hire an expert to help you. The one potential caveat with this approach is that you may end up with the expert's take on sound and not yours. Personally, I have enjoyed the journey but admit that the process has been frustrating at times.

Exactly. Even the best expert will still not be able to tune the system to your ears and preferences as only you can do it.

And the best part, playing with set-up usually costs no money, or at worst relatively little. But in many cases the pay-off can be of the magnitude of an entire component upgrade, or better. Of course, it's more sexy to have the newest and shiniest object in the house, but that doesn't necessarily translate into the greatest increase of listening pleasure for yourself, relative to optimization of set-up.

 

[ack]

Folsom,

I don't expect or want you to retract anything. all feedback and listening perceptions are valid. only that using my system as a test place for your pride and joy amplifier is a factor involved in judging your feedback. and readers need to know that and judge for themselves.

you made the clear choice to criticize my amplifiers, you did not need to do that. but you did. so then I felt I needed to disclose your perspective. you caused me to do that. I would have preferred not to.

you were not a casual visitor without any baggage, you had an agenda. nothing hidden or nefarious at all. but real none-the-less.

if someone brings any product they personally build to my room and then comments on how a product I own sounds compared to theirs then any reader needs to know the context to judge.

it's not for me to judge what you say, it's for the reader with full disclosure to judge.

would another visitor using my room to hear their creation compared to mine make negative comments about mine? that....is a question.

Hmm... He never compared his amp to yours. He only discussed your amps and Spectral's. In the end, we all have our own points of personal reference, and Folsom just brought his into your room... not much of a difference, I'd say... Do you think he focused on your amps exactly because he compared them with his, but never talked about it? I am also not sure that he "criticized" your amps or anything else; it felt like honest, truthful feedback.

 

[Folsom]

Well Mike, I'm sorry. I have no problem disclosing anything. I respect your feelings on the subject and believe that any next time there is (not saying with me specifically) anything in your room that isn't yours, that disclosing any particular requests about public comments afterwards would be helpful to both.

I do feel that giving a complete description of my experience is an honest act, even including criticizing something. It's not meant to be harsh. I talk about everything from my perspective. It will simply have to stand a test of time that what I say stands as honesty since I'm a newer member around here.

At the same time I ask for respect about the agenda comment. Yes I wanted to hear my amplifier for a learning experience, I enjoy sharing my baby with others for certain, but full disclosure of an agenda it wasn't in order to sell anything (if anyone was wondering, it's not ready yet for sale as a commercial product). I don't want to be seen as a sneaky salesman or anything like that!

If you're wondering if I'm saying I found something I dislike, because I make something that has what I like in order to position myself at an advantage, no that's not what I'm about. I actually look forward to finding things that can best anything I make, so I can learn and progress. Listening to various things has made me change design numerous times seeking to improve. If you want me to write a description of a direct comparison here, let me know; the same goes for any other request. I don't want us to be at any odds Mike!

P.S.

The experience with my amp led me to start designing something I believe will correct a downfall of my own amp that I didn't know I was going to experience.

 

[rockitman]

Thanks Mike, Bruce, Doc for sharing your system(s) details. It's not always fun or personally rewarding putting one's system up for web forum scrutiny/critique. Your time, efforts and sharing of experiences is grealty appreciated

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hmm... He never compared his amp to yours. He only discussed your amps and Spectral's. In the end, we all have our own points of personal reference, and Folsom just brought his into your room... not much of a difference, I'd say... Do you think he focused on your amps exactly because he compared them with his, but never talked about it? I am also not sure that he "criticized" your amps or anything else; it felt like honest, truthful feedback.

I'm not a mind reader, so will not comment on Folsom's motivation. I know he wants to have his amplifier be a commercial product.

I respect that you see his comments as you do. that is how this should work. we look at what we know and proceed each of us to judge.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well Mike, I'm sorry. I have no problem disclosing anything. I respect your feelings on the subject and believe that any next time there is (not saying with me specifically) anything in your room that isn't yours, that disclosing any particular requests about public comments afterwards would be helpful to both.

I do feel that giving a complete description of my experience is an honest act, even including criticizing something. It's not meant to be harsh. I talk about everything from my perspective. It will simply have to stand a test of time that what I say stands as honesty since I'm a newer member around here.

At the same time I ask for respect about the agenda comment. Yes I wanted to hear my amplifier for a learning experience, I enjoy sharing my baby with others for certain, but full disclosure of an agenda it wasn't in order to sell anything (if anyone was wondering, it's not ready yet for sale as a commercial product). I don't want to be seen as a sneaky salesman or anything like that!

If you're wondering if I'm saying I found something I dislike, because I make something that has what I like in order to position myself at an advantage, no that's not what I'm about. I actually look forward to finding things that can best anything I make, so I can learn and progress. Listening to various things has made me change design numerous times seeking to improve. If you want me to write a description of a direct comparison here, let me know; the same goes for any other request. I don't want us to be at any odds Mike!

P.S.

The experience with my amp led me to start designing something I believe will correct a downfall of my own amp that I didn't know I was going to experience.

we are not at odds. you did what you were ordained to do ahead of time.

I knew if I said anything at all it would get a little messy. but I also felt like I had to do it. there is no winning in a spot like this. after you initially asked me if you could bring your amp to my room this exact scenario played out in my mind. this is not a good idea. I almost called you back to tell you not to bring it.

and here I am.

lesson learned.

 

[RogerD]

I too have read with great interest the near field listening that others have commented on but if is sounds better sitting there, then that's the way it is. Just as Mike says

In my room which is much smaller than Mikes my speakers are 10 feet from tweeter to tweeter and I sit 12 feet back. Like Micro though I personally have reservations sitting that close especially when you guys were playing that Rolling Stones tape at high spl

I think one of the unintended but important takeaways from this thread is that high performance audio is a journey. Simply purchasing and plugging in well-selected, high quality and synergistic components is not the end; rather it is the beginning. In order to approach maximizing the sound quality, you have to be willing to experiment with many interdependent variables including, analog setup, cable layout, room, tube selection, speaker and equipment positioning, etc. These variables are relatively inexpensive (and oft times 'free') but require the willingness to commit the time and effort. IMO, the 'Seattle Audio Mafia' has been an invaluable asset for the local high performance audio community. I can't begin to catalog what I've learned about audio from folks like Joel, Mike, Gary, etc. We are critical but supportive and willing to help each other in the audio journey. Most importantly, it's much more fun to enjoy and discover music with your friends. (OK, good scotch helps!) The process is assuredly non-linear and time consuming. As documented in this thread, the performance of Mike's system today is not just the result of a large financial commitment, but time, sweat equity and yes, some tears.

I think as system performance increases the "nearfield experience" creeps into the normal way of listening. Also the more information unmasked the listener wants hear all the many improvements it brings. My speakers are now with the dedicated room 9ft on center a part and I sit about 8 ft back.

So true Jazzdoc....congrats to you,Mike,and others.

 

[Lee]

Very cool reports. I hope to visit Mike, Bruce and others in Seattle soon.

 

[Folsom]

we are not at odds. you did what you were ordained to do ahead of time.

I knew if I said anything at all it would get a little messy. but I also felt like I had to do it. there is no winning in a spot like this. after you initially asked me if you could bring your amp to my room this exact scenario played out in my mind. this is not a good idea. I almost called you back to tell you not to bring it.

I too considered that I wanted to be respectful about it, where it was going, and my choice not to talk about using my amp I thought was the best way to do it - leave it out. I do hope you take some consolation in helping someone get a great learning experience that will mean a lot for their aspiring ascendance into an audio company.

I'm glad we are not at any odds Mike. It's good to have friends in the audiophile world that understand how the extension of invitation to have a listen to one's stereo shouldn't be taken lightly as we audiophile find it rather personal as an extension of something we care a lot about. (We all know what it's like to invite people over that think it's about as important as coming over to look at a new door mat)

ANYWAYS

Did anyone else notice that Ked has several other systems on his blog? I'm excited to read about all of them as well...

 

[ack]

I'm not a mind reader, so will not comment on Folsom's motivation. I know he wants to have his amplifier be a commercial product.

I respect that you see his comments as you do. that is how this should work. we look at what we know and proceed each of us to judge.

Great! To be quite honest, I am probably one of the coldest audiophiles you will ever meet. To me, this "stuff" is just "things", things that can offer utter enjoyment, enjoyment that all audiophiles need. And any one 'thing' is likely flawed, by definition, because it was built by humans. Therefore, when I walk into a room to audition, I assume the system has to do a lot of things well and others not so well - it can't be perfect. This cold perspective helps me improve my system, which by definition cannot possibly be perfect at anything; when I upgrade something, I know exactly the areas I am looking to improve.

On the other hand, not everyone sees it like that, and I can understand... I'll just share a short story: I met/visited two new audiophiles in August, and I was forewarned that it would be better to tell them that I slept with their wives, than to "criticize" their equipment. It's true, I was told exactly those words.

 

[bonzo75]

Great! To be quite honest, I am probably one of the coldest audiophiles you will ever meet. To me, this "stuff" is just "things", things that can offer utter enjoyment, enjoyment that all audiophiles need. And any one 'thing' is likely flawed, by definition, because it was built by humans. Therefore, when I walk into a room to audition, I assume the system has to do a lot of things well and others not so well - it can't be perfect. This cold perspective helps me improve my system, which by definition cannot possibly be perfect at anything; when I upgrade something, I know exactly the areas I am looking to improve.

On the other hand, not everyone sees it like that, and I can understand... I'll just share a short story: I met/visited two new audiophiles in August, and I was forewarned that it would be better to tell them that I slept with their wives, than to "criticize" their equipment. It's true, I was told exactly those words.

SO how were their wives?

 

[ack]

SO how were their wives?

I am sure they would have been better than the equipment

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks Mike, Bruce, Doc for sharing your system(s) details. It's not always fun or personally rewarding putting one's system up for web forum scrutiny/critique. Your time, efforts and sharing of experiences is grealty appreciated

It's always a pleasure to host other audiophiles. I wish this year had been better for me physically but I'm doing much better now.
Like Mike, my door is always open to all who want to experience what a Professional mastering environment sounds like.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks Mike, Bruce, Doc for sharing your system(s) details. It's not always fun or personally rewarding putting one's system up for web forum scrutiny/critique. Your time, efforts and sharing of experiences is grealty appreciated

Guys - just on this point, I am not a critic to criticize any audiophile's system*. I totally appreciate all those audiophiles who helped me learn. Sometimes, you meet uber systems, and mostly you don't. What I actually like writing about, are comparisons. Most of my trips are to learn and report about gear, and that is what it will be.

So please anybody reading do not worry about turning me away .

The * was because Spiritofmusic and I have our own way of communicating

 

[bonzo75]

Did anyone else notice that Ked has several other systems on his blog? I'm excited to read about all of them as well...

They have all been posted about on the forum in separate posts, I will just be cut pasting them. There are some good future posts coming up though.

 

[bonzo75]

Guys, just quickly, is the font fine for you, or do you want one size small?

Are the embedded pics too small, and do you want them bigger?

 

[853guy]

Guys, just quickly, is the font fine for you, or do you want one size small?

Are the embedded pics too small, and do you want them bigger?

Well, since you're asking, would it be possible to have them able to be clicked on and enlarged? That would be cool.

I'm a total pretentious font snob so you could choose whatever and I'd be disappointed. If you just wanted to please me then Adobe Calson Pro would make me happy, but probably only me.