Should a member be allowed to make a post which is AI generated or AI mixed without disclosing such use of AI as part of the post?

[Ron Resnick]

So, in our infinite wisdom, we decided to create AI that might become our apex predator. Well, that’s unfortunate if it happens, but life’s tough. We got our shot at being the apex predator on Earth. But as every apex predator knows, that’s a short-term position.

This sounds like a plausible evolutionary prediction. I am fine with this. As long as we get AI to benevolently adopt and preserve the dogs. (Not you, Al M. I know you can't handle that many dogs.)

 

[microstrip]

Unlike you, I am just an ignorant individual with very limited intelligence and analytical capabilities.

I fully understand the issue and your position. I am tired of you and your incessant need to preach the AI gospel. Go insult and argue with someone else. You are on "Ignore". Bye.

Sorry, I got tired of your permanent and insinuating style to downgrade the benefits of properly used AI and question the integrity of most users of AI. Have a nice day.

 

[Lagonda]

Maybe AI can make Rap or Metal more listenable, or run our government. But wait, isn’t “artificial” intelligence already in our government?

What intelligence ?

 

[Lagonda]

Unlike you, I am just an ignorant individual with very limited intelligence and analytical capabilities.

I fully understand the issue and your position. I am tired of you and your incessant need to preach the AI gospel. Go insult and argue with someone else. You are on "Ignore". Bye.

By ignoring the microbot you exclude yourself from about half of the post on WBF The original microbot was developed by Professor F. Toole, dcs and Wilson as a efficient marketing tool, it soon developed its own agenda spreading rapidly all over the internet. Recently recalled and reprogrammed it is now working in conjunction with ChatGTP and is more prolific than ever before It can "research " and post arguments in many threads simultaneously at a staggering speed. All music is assessed trough its algorithms and thereafter subjected to blind peer reviews. Audio systems are sometimes reverse engineered for better understanding the meaning of audio. It is truly a formidable and often irritating tool !

 

[PYP]

TOS:
10. Posting topics involving politics, religion or firearms are not allowed and will be removed with appropriate warnings issued to the member. Repeated offenses can result in membership ban.

 

[PeterA]

By ignoring the microbot you exclude yourself from about half of the post on WBF The original microbot was developed by Professor F, Toole, dsc and Wilson as a efficient marketing tool, it soon developed its own agenda spreading rapidly all over the internet. Recently recalled and reprogrammed it is now working in conjunction with ChatGTP and is more prolific than ever before It can "research " and post arguments in many threads simultaneously at a staggering speed. All music is assessed trough its algorithms and thereafter subjected to blind peer reviews. Audio systems are sometimes reverse engineered for better understanding of the meaning of audio. It is truly a formidable and often irritating tool !

And all along, I simply thought it was in the nature of a professor to lecture.

 

[PYP]

Let’s look at this another way, if it will help. 65 million years ago, mammals were tiny rat-like creatures that scurried along dark passageways trying to eke out a living. The apex predators were the huge dinosaurs like T-Rex and Velociraptors. Well, the scientific evidence that’s now pretty conclusive shows that an enormous asteroid hit the earth near Chicxulub near the Gulf of Mexico (ahem, recently renamed Gulf of America for users of Google Maps in the US) wiping out a huge chunk of animals including the dinosaurs. Mammals being rat-like creatures survived.

How do we know this actually happened? Well, explosions generally leave a “smoking gun”. In this case, we know that asteroids are rich in materials rare on Earth, like Iridium. Well, guess what, at the impact crater, there’s a huge deposit of Iridium. What’s more telling, the huge explosion sent millions of tons of the asteroid all over the Earth. At exactly the same historical region in thousands of locations, we again find large quantities of Iridium. There’s lots of other evidence, like the presence of molten particles that only occur when you have explosions that are of the size of a hydrogen bomb.

Ok, we’re here today reading WBF thanks to this asteroid that made it possible. Otherwise T-Rex would still be ruling the Earth. So, in our infinite wisdom, we decided to create AI that might become our apex predator. Well, that’s unfortunate if it happens, but life’s tough. We got our shot at being the apex predator on Earth. But as every apex predator knows, that’s a short-term position. Ask your closest T-Rex the next time you run into one.

When you look at the long-term scenario, it makes more sense. To me at least!

We get to assume whether the future will look more like Sleeper than the Matrix, or Terminator or Blade Runner. Most predictions do not turn out to be true. However, I'm still getting a sex bot repairman license since that works in all scenarios.

 

[italia]

Maybe AI can make Rap or Metal more listenable, or run our government. But wait, isn’t “artificial” intelligence already in our government?

There's actually quite a bit of melodic and 'listenable' metal that has been produced this century. IMO

 

[PYP]

There's actually quite a bit of melodic and 'listenable' metal that has been produced this century. IMO

the is interesting. Can you suggest two albums that are available to stream (I am serious. Would like to sample some music)? Perhaps I don't know how that genre has changed since it isn't my cup of boiling oil.

 

[italia]

the is interesting. Can you suggest two albums that are available to stream (I am serious. Would like to sample some music)? Perhaps I don't know how that genre has changed since it isn't my cup of boiling oil.

@PYP I appreciate your interest.

One album that comes to mind is 'Trauma' by "I Prevail", a metalcore band from Michigan formed in the early 2010's IIRC. Metalcore is a sub-genre of metal which usually combines two vocal styles, generally known as clean vocals and dirty vocals. In "I Prevail", clean and dirty vocals are provided by two different band members, but in some bands it is one person for both.

A caveat about melodic metal is that you'll likely not find an entire album of purely melodic songs, and this album is a good example. While there are melodic songs such as Every Time You Leave, Hurricane, I Don't Belong Here, and Let Me Be Sad, there are heavier songs on the album including Bow Down, Gasoline, Deadweight, and Rise Above It. Also, you'll likely find "explicit" lyrics in many metal songs, and this album is among them.

My unpopular opinion: The best metal music of my lifetime is from 1999 to present

 

[microstrip]

And all along, I simply thought it was in the nature of a professor to lecture.

Thanks for posting Peter - otherwise I would not have replied to the post you answered. In fact some people do their best to reduce WBF to a place where people just post audio findings, advertisement and humour. Any post that exceeds their level of comprehension or interest is immediately flagged as a lecture.

It is an interesting subject for a separate thread - we assume stereo is an illusion. Does true knowledge of stereo matters conflict with stereo enjoyment?

 

[PYP]

Does true knowledge of stereo matters conflict with stereo enjoyment?

Interesting question. I just listened to a podcast discussion with Eelco Grimm regarding what the interviewer calls audio myths. It is very long, but one can get an idea in the first minutes or so. There is a very good discussion about frequencies interacting with rooms.

For those interested in DACs, tune in at 1:20. https://darko.audio/2025/01/podcast-10-hi-fi-myths-busted-by-eelco-grimm/

 

[brad225]

Yes, it can be used but it should be made known by the person posting.

 

[DaveC]

Let’s look at this another way, if it will help. 65 million years ago, mammals were tiny rat-like creatures that scurried along dark passageways trying to eke out a living. The apex predators were the huge dinosaurs like T-Rex and Velociraptors. Well, the scientific evidence that’s now pretty conclusive shows that an enormous asteroid hit the earth near Chicxulub near the Gulf of Mexico (ahem, recently renamed Gulf of America for users of Google Maps in the US) wiping out a huge chunk of animals including the dinosaurs. Mammals being rat-like creatures survived.

How do we know this actually happened? Well, explosions generally leave a “smoking gun”. In this case, we know that asteroids are rich in materials rare on Earth, like Iridium. Well, guess what, at the impact crater, there’s a huge deposit of Iridium. What’s more telling, the huge explosion sent millions of tons of the asteroid all over the Earth. At exactly the same historical region in thousands of locations, we again find large quantities of Iridium. There’s lots of other evidence, like the presence of molten particles that only occur when you have explosions that are of the size of a hydrogen bomb.

Ok, we’re here today reading WBF thanks to this asteroid that made it possible. Otherwise T-Rex would still be ruling the Earth. So, in our infinite wisdom, we decided to create AI that might become our apex predator. Well, that’s unfortunate if it happens, but life’s tough. We got our shot at being the apex predator on Earth. But as every apex predator knows, that’s a short-term position. Ask your closest T-Rex the next time you run into one.

When you look at the long-term scenario, it makes more sense. To me at least!

I think we may be looking at a scifi-like future where Buddhism and AI come together and finally define the world and present the TOE (Theory of Everything). Why Buddhists? Putting aside any religious implications as it's against tou and is otherwise irrelevant, it's philosophy defines the right view of the world up to a point, and thus far what we know of quantum mechanics agrees. The key here is determining the sentience of a machine, or to put it another way, the point at which a machine becomes a nexus for inhabitation of consciousness, the "spark of life". In the same way the seed of a plant, the fertilized eggs of an animal or the fetus of a human becomes a vessel for consciousness. Buddhists know when that point is, and I believe it can be determined for machines as well. We will have conscious, sentient machines at some point that have a "soul".

As far as what's in store for humans, the thought that you're "safe" if you work with your hands hints at a dystopian future where advanced human skills that currently push the envelope of technology and arts will have no value whatsoever. It points to the oligarchic technocracy I mentioned previously where a few trillionaire overlords will rule over a large class of human serfs whose only real value is their ability to serve as janitors for infrastructure. Eventually they won't be needed and at some point the ruling technocrats won't be either. Maybe at that point human consciousness will transfer to some sort of machine body and just like the caterpillar, the human body will be obsolete once the butterfly has taken form.

I think we're already at a point where a vast number of jobs where people don't work with their hands are redundant or add little to no value to the world, an example is Elon Musk ultimately firing 80% of Twitter employees without having Twitter go down. I'll make no comment about the result, but just the fact it's possible to fire 80% of it's employees without it's failure points to this.

 

[DaveC]

It is an interesting subject for a separate thread - we assume stereo is an illusion. Does true knowledge of stereo matters conflict with stereo enjoyment?

When I was a little kid I thought of cars as some magical device. Once I learned how engines, steering, etc work some of the magic was gone, like telling a child Santa Claus isn't real.

As an adult you can let your brain get in the way of everything, but that's up to you...

 

[Ron Resnick]

My personal thinking about AI on WBF has evolved over the course of this discussion. Originally I did not see a problem with a member drafting an original post and then running it through AI for processing. Now I am skeptical even of this use of AI, because I think increasing adoption by members of this "back-end" use of AI will tend to homogenize posts and tend to suppress the individual personalities and writing styles of our members who use AI to correct grammar and to "smooth" their posts in this way. I personally do not care to see any posts which read fake or kind of fake.

In the same way WBF takes the hardest possible line against political comments, maybe we also should take a hard line against any use of AI? Maybe WBF should be old-school in two ways?

However, there is no sticking our head in the sand on this. I am sure AI will evolve to become indistinguishable from human-drafted writing. (In other words AI will learn how to leave in writing just enough grammatical and linguistic "roughness" to be indistinguishable from typical natural human writing.)

There also will be an endless measure and counter-measure process between AI and AI detectors. AI will learn how to fool AI detectors, and AI detectors will improve to catch the fooling. So we may have to modify over time whatever AI Term of Service we adopt in the near future, and to make sure we do not discipline members wrongly over false positives.

1) Following my draft AI Term of Service in Post #215 please consider this new draft which contains a broader and tougher prohibition. You will see that I even deleted the disclosed AI question and answer type of post. This new draft provision merely is for your consideration and for our continuing discussion:

Posts generated by artificial intelligence applications (“AI”) are prohibited. Posts which are member drafted and then processed through AI are prohibited.

WBF utilizes the AI detection application built into Xenforo. If this application determines that a post contains AI then such post may be deleted.

Of course this Term of Service cannot come into effect until WBF has actually adopted the Xenforo AI detector application.

2) Especially since this new draft is a broader and tougher prohibition, and given member concerns about false positives and resulting unfair disciplinary action, I propose that we tread slowly on the application of the WBF moderation and disciplinary process to any new AI Term of Service. I propose for the first six (6) months of the implementation of any new AI Term of Service (again, only after WBF adopts the Xenforo AI detector application) that the moderators merely notify members of their posts which violate this new Term of Service, and delete the AI violative portions of such posts, but that there shall be no formal warnings or application of the ladder disciplinary system during this implementation period. I think we should see how this whole new AI detector process goes before members start getting formally disciplined.

3) At least initially I think WBF should treat as a violative AI post only a post which the Xenforo AI detector says there is "100% chance it is AI." What do you think the threshold should be?

4) Thank you for working through with us these complicated, difficult and sensitive issues! Members, let the discussion of these suggestions begin!

 

[PYP]

one slight modification could be a six month monitoring period during which statistics are kept and then presented to the entire readership. then discussion continue from there.

 

[Steve williams]

My personal thinking about AI on WBF has evolved over the course of this discussion. Originally I did not see a problem with a member drafting an original post and then running it through AI for processing. Now I am skeptical even of this use of AI, because I think increasing adoption by members of this "back-end" use of AI will tend to homogenize posts and tend to suppress the individual personalities and writing styles of our members who use AI to correct grammar and to "smooth" their posts in this way. I personally do not care to see any posts which read fake or kind of fake.

In the same way WBF takes the hardest possible line against political comments, maybe we also should take a hard line against any use of AI? Maybe WBF should be old-school in two ways?

However, there is no sticking our head in the sand on this. I am sure AI will evolve to become indistinguishable from human-drafted writing. (In other words AI will learn how to leave in writing just enough grammatical and linguistic "roughness" to be indistinguishable from typical natural human writing.)

There also will be an endless measure and counter-measure process between AI and AI detectors. AI will learn how to fool AI detectors, and AI detectors will improve to catch the fooling. So we may have to modify over time whatever AI Term of Service we adopt in the near future, and to make sure we do not discipline members wrongly over false positives.

1) Following my draft AI Term of Service in Post #215 please consider this new draft which contains a broader and tougher prohibition. You will see that I even deleted the disclosed AI question and answer type of post. This new draft provision merely is for your consideration and for our continuing discussion:

Posts generated by artificial intelligence applications (“AI”) are prohibited. Posts which are member drafted and then processed through AI are prohibited.

WBF utilizes the AI detection application built into Xenforo. If this application determines that a post contains AI then such portion of such post may be deleted.

Of course this Term of Service cannot come into effect until WBF has actually adopted the Xenforo AI detector application.

2) Especially since this new draft is a broader and tougher prohibition, and given member concerns about false positives and resulting unfair disciplinary action, I propose that we tread slowly on the application of the WBF moderation and disciplinary process to any new AI Term of Service. I propose for the first six (6) months of the implementation of any new AI Term of Service (again, only after WBF adopts the Xenforo AI detector application) that the moderators merely notify members of their posts which violate this new Term of Service, and delete the AI violative portions of such posts, but that there shall be no formal warnings or application of the ladder disciplinary system during this implementation period. I think we should see how this whole new AI detector process goes before members start getting formally disciplined.

3) At least initially I think WBF should treat as a violative AI post only a post which the Xenforo AI detector says there is "100% chance it is AI." What do you think the threshold should be?

4) Thank you for working through with us these complicated, difficult and sensitive issues! Members, let the discussion of these suggestions begin!

at the moment there is not Xenforo AI detector.It is under discussion. I suggest you remove Xenforo and use only AI Detectors

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...once forum members have a substantial number of posts, you can use AI to analyze new content against the historical "template" to determine if a new post was generated by AI.

I'm joking, but maybe not. I like the irony of using one kind of benevolent/forum-controlled bot to police the other side.

This discussion, while interesting to me, does feel a bit like folks who lash themselves to the vinyl mast to weather out the storm and the siren call of digital.

I really don't think you can keep Frankenstein in the dungeon for long. Language, as it has been said, is a virus.

 

[microstrip]

(...) 3) Thank you for working through with us these complicated, difficult and sensitive issues! Members, let the discussion of these suggestions begin!

Although in general I agree with your suggestions, I do not like the idea of moderators editing posts. IMO they should simply delete or hold them, notifying the author to change it.

I found that XenForo has several AI based plug-ins to help forum moderation and detection of spam or inappropriate content. Are they currently in use?

I hope WBF is not using their "tools to enhance user engagement" ! (just joking!)