Should a member be allowed to make a post which is AI generated or AI mixed without disclosing such use of AI as part of the post?

[Holmz]

Not on the systems I mentioned, we are not talking only on algorithms that are explicitly programmed, but programs that adapt and improve based on data. With respect, I won’t get deeper into this.

Those are termed learning systems.

There are also trained system, which is different, and sometimes/often called deep learning.
And the AI of ChatGPT is “Generative AI”, which is nothing like a rocker, spaceship, airplane, etc.

So to bring those things as evidence is non-sequitur fallacy-

 

[Ron Resnick]

The vast majority of the members here at the WBF have spoken....loud and clear.

The "vast majority of the members here at the WBF have spoken"?

As of the moment of this writing 79 members have responded to the poll. Let's say we have 20,000 members at WBF. 79 is .44% of 20,000.

A majority is 50% plus one.

.44% is not remotely a majority, let alone a "vast majority."

 

[treitz3]

You are splitting hairs, Ron. Geez.

Please allow me to rephrase. The vast majority of active members who have seen this thread and voted.

You happy now?

Tom

 

[DaveC]

Huh? If I see somebody writing here with what appears to be AI I simply will put the person on "ignore." Why would I want to read AI crap on this hobby forum?


Huh?


This seems like another way overbroad comment. I don't think this is a matter of generality.

In some situations such as seeking accurate and intelligible information I may not care if it's AI or not. On my own audio forum for the hobby I love I have no interest in reading AI.


Huh?



Hi Dave,

I truly do not understand most of your post, and your questions. I certainly don't agree with your universal declarations. I do not know how you arrived at those apocalyptic conclusions from my post to which you are replying.

Please ask me a clear, specific question.

Thank you.

If Ai is not disallowed and nobody can tell the difference between AI and humans online, then forums will be obsolete because most humans will decline to participate. You will have a forum full of AI bots talking to one another. This isn't catastrophizing, AI talking to one another, whether human supervised or not, has happened already.

Here, AI bots will likely have an agenda to promote some audio product or service. We've just seen one member buy advertising and then use AI in order to promote themselves. What if all of your advertisers did the same? I think the answer is you'd no longer have a real forum, you'd have a cesspool of questionable AI marketing. This is what Tom meant when he said "How far are you going to let this slide", how many Teds are going to get on here and do what he just did? The more this happens, the fewer human beings will participate, and there will be a downward slide into some online hellscape where AI dominates the discourse. Again, not so farfetched as we can already see the result of just one AI-driven marketing campaign, that apparently has just started? Can't wait to read more thought provoking AI-generated word salad intro posts!

The downfall and obsolescence of forums and many forms of social media are assured if AI can't be differentiated from human, it's the only logical conclusion. I just can't see it going any other way.

 

[godofwealth]

Fascinating thread. Time for your local WBF AI expert to chime in (ahem!). First, we need to get some ``facts" straightened out.

1. The web as we know it is soon going to be history. Google Search is being replaced officially by Google AI Overviews. Your kids and grandkids will grow up in a new world where the only content they are likely to see will be AI generated (from raw data digested by AI systems). There is no going back. AI content is what the next generation will increasingly see, hear, watch, and interact with.

2. Trying to ban AI is like trying to ban computers. Can't be done, and won't happen. It's like asking forum members not to use keyboards or laptops, and instead use a typewriter and send forum contributions by US snail mail. Get used to it.

3. AI systems are currently being developed by ``trial and error", as the momentum is so rapid that there is no room for strategies like "let's think this out and when we are sure, put it out". As Zuck says, "move fast and break things" is the Bay Area motto, and it's the reality as well.

4. The entire educational infrastructure is rapidly moving towards AI in the classroom. Open AI just signed a major deal with literally hundreds of thousands of schools.

5. One of my former university lab alums is a CEO at one of the Bay Area's hottest startups that is fielding one of these AI systems (won't name it for confidentiality purposes). He's 40 years younger than me, and already a billionaire at 25. Life's tough -- AI is the greatest wealth creation technology humans have ever invented.

5. DeepSeek-R1, the latest hottest Chinese AI bot has massively lowered the entry point to building Open AI level chatbots, and this technology is now spreading like wildfire. What took a hundred million dollars two years ago today costs less than 5 million, and by next year, will cost peanuts.

So, buckle up, and enjoy the "ride". There is no going back to "pre-AI" good old fashioned "human-generated-only" content.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The "vast majority of the members here at the WBF have spoken"?

As of the moment of this writing 79 members have responded to the poll. Let's say we have 20,000 members at WBF. 79 is .44% of 20,000.

A majority is 50% plus one.

.44% is not remotely a majority, let alone a "vast majority."

when you do a posting frequency distribution curve we will have the answer as to how to weight the answerers. my guess is that the majority of the posting weight is represented by the participants in this poll who have a real stake. the ones daily contributing content, and who the forum actually is.

i'm taking a SAWG for sure as i really don't know, but it's hard to imagine i've missed by much.

but dismissing the vote's preference is a stretch. and hard to make a case that the preference would change much with more votes. in fact, my guess is that most of the minority 'yes' votes thought they were voting for having disclosure, a point i made in post #8.

 

[microstrip]

When asked about the inclusion of AI generated posts in audio forums, the AI bot summarized " For now, AI is best used as a support tool rather than a standalone contributor in these spaces."

For now ...

 

[Ron Resnick]

You are splitting hairs, Ron. Geez.

Please allow me to rephrase. The vast majority of active members who have seen this thread and voted.

You happy now?

Tom

I am happy you have made a factually correct statement. Thank you.

 

[the sound of Tao]

This has been a good thread to explore this issue and from my perspective to get a better understanding of the potential real implications. The context of a forum is particularly vulnerable to its loss of culture, forums live through and are characterised by the quality of the fundamental human interchange.

The idea of just enjoying the AI ride? To just acquiesce and allow the outsource of the conversation to the computer and risk a cultural overrun by bots is not worth any qualitative gains if there really are any. We risk losing the whole plot to fail to regulate this as closely as possible… it would be easy to trade off a good part of the core of our humanity and consciousness for a viral artificiality.

Reflecting more on it here we could be wise to be more concerned… the idea that marketers can so easily turn up their volume exponentially and blitzkrieg us with a relentless torrent of below the line advertising posts and trolls could just as easily weaponise to terrorise and play out in a larger wave of destructive ways is a concern here.

Yeah I spose we can just all bend over and be bot fact .

Maybe if we can’t control it globally we can perhaps atleast choose to take something of a stand against it here.

 

[PYP]

Fascinating thread. Time for your local WBF AI expert to chime in (ahem!). First, we need to get some ``facts" straightened out.

1. The web as we know it is soon going to be history. Google Search is being replaced officially by Google AI Overviews. Your kids and grandkids will grow up in a new world where the only content they are likely to see will be AI generated (from raw data digested by AI systems). There is no going back. AI content is what the next generation will increasingly see, hear, watch, and interact with.

2. Trying to ban AI is like trying to ban computers. Can't be done, and won't happen. It's like asking forum members not to use keyboards or laptops, and instead use a typewriter and send forum contributions by US snail mail. Get used to it.

3. AI systems are currently being developed by ``trial and error", as the momentum is so rapid that there is no room for strategies like "let's think this out and when we are sure, put it out". As Zuck says, "move fast and break things" is the Bay Area motto, and it's the reality as well.

4. The entire educational infrastructure is rapidly moving towards AI in the classroom. Open AI just signed a major deal with literally hundreds of thousands of schools.

5. One of my former university lab alums is a CEO at one of the Bay Area's hottest startups that is fielding one of these AI systems (won't name it for confidentiality purposes). He's 40 years younger than me, and already a billionaire at 25. Life's tough -- AI is the greatest wealth creation technology humans have ever invented.

5. DeepSeek-R1, the latest hottest Chinese AI bot has massively lowered the entry point to building Open AI level chatbots, and this technology is now spreading like wildfire. What took a hundred million dollars two years ago today costs less than 5 million, and by next year, will cost peanuts.

So, buckle up, and enjoy the "ride". There is no going back to "pre-AI" good old fashioned "human-generated-only" content.

If we won't need folks to write code, teach kids, draft laws, drive cars and trucks, manage flights, manage military logistics, etc., etc., what do these people do for a living?

AI in charge of weapon systems and combat strategy is a lot scarier than generating text for forums.

Does your young billionaire friend ever consider these kinds of issues?

 

[Steve williams]

I started this thread as everyone knows. I want to have the feeling that everything I read by someone posting is legitimate and not from some bot. Surely we can still think, question and understand and come to conclusions. I don't want anyone to gussy up their posts with anything other than their own thoughts. Nor do I want to read posts that are designed to pump up one's desires to be construed as an expert.

Ron, with all due respect the poll speaks primarily for the most vociferous of posters on WBF. It's just like Mike Lavigne said. We have over 30,000 members but the reality is there is a core group of members who post regularly and IMO are the "brains" behind WBF and need to be heard. Frankly I am not surprised by the results of the poll so far.

Having said this I too feel very strongly that we do whatever we can to prevent any member from using AI to enhance his posts without full disclosure at the time of posting. I don't want to be duped nor do I want someone pumping his chest with each post that he is the sole expert and the rest of us just better listen to what he has to say

To that extent I feel that the voting majority are the core group of members here on a daily basis and posting the most and therein is the crux of this debate. I feel that we as owners now have an obligation to add to our Terms of Service a clause which makes members aware that it is not allowed on WBF. I also believe that virtually 100% of our regular posters will never use it and if they do it will be with full disclosure. There will be new members who join who might not be aware of such a rule and therefore a soft (informal) warning by the mods would iMO be sufficient enough that this member will never post with AI again and/or without full disclosure. No one is out to ban anyone but we are all wanting a level playing field and that is not too much to ask of any of us,

Here is what I propose be added to our TOS.....I believe that the majority of members are strongly opposed to the use of AI in any form .

I propose "members shall not use AI in any fashion unless such is divulged in the post. Failure to do such will result in removal of the post and an INFORMAL warning issued. If further use of AI by the same member continues, the post(s) will be removed and a FORMAL warning will be issued. Pursuant to our use of a ladder system of warnings. repeated violations will result in a temporary ban and if continues a permanent ban will result.

It is my feeling that if a member does this unknowingly of the TOS and an INFORMAL warning issued, my bet is they will comply and never do it again. I trust our members as good people and an. INFORMAL warning is meant to serve such purpose. We have used a ladder system for years and it works perfectly . If the member continues to be an offender, the ladder system gives him ample opportunity to weigh his future posts inasmuch as the ladder system after several formal warnings will result in a temporary ban and if said person continues to flick us the finger and persist in such posts a permanent ban will result

Our mods are completely fair and our TOS is their constitution. No AL detector is fool proof and I believe that this thread alone will give members pause should they think of using AI generated posts so that in the long term I really believe this issue at least for now will be minimal at best. However without a clause in our TOS to guide the mods then all we are doing is spinning our wheels

 

[Holmz]

If we won't need folks to write code, teach kids, draft laws, drive cars and trucks, manage flights, manage military logistics, etc., etc., what do these people do for a living?
issues? …

 

[Steve williams]

I also propose that once this new TOS is put into effect, we will highlight it in our ANNOUNCEMENTS forum and alalso be placed in our next 3 monthly newsletters. This way everyone will be aware and I believe it will become a non issue or a minimal issue at most

 

[PYP]

I want AI to give us the answer about how humanity can face modernity without losing its humanity.

 

[Steve williams]

Ok. I’m asking everyone now to put aside their generalities and think now only about AI and its use on WBF. I invite comments now about my proposed addition to our TOS

 

[godofwealth]

We are in the midst of the most radical technological transformation that society has ever seen. Most people are only dimly aware of how rapidly their world is going to change. AI systems, powered by the richest and most powerful corporations in history, are going to rule all our lives.

Not all the changes will be bad. Huge improvements in processes will happen, like inventing life saving drugs in a fraction of the time needed earlier. This year two Nobel prizes in physics and chemistry went to AI. Many more will follow in years to come. But there will be undoubtedly huge job displacements as companies need far fewer people to do mundane office work. From Wall Street — where investment banking will likely see enormous reductions in staffing — to paralegals to software developers, the job cuts will be painful and deep. Paradoxically the folks least affected will be the “blue collar” workers — it’s a great time to learn a trade like plumbing!

What will most people do? Well, here’s what the Bay Area billionaires themselves have said on this topic.

Open AI is a proponent of Universal Basic Income. You get a basic living wage salary because you are a human. They have funded studies on this idea.

Unconditional Cash Study

OpenResearch is a nonprofit research lab that seeks to answer open-ended questions.

www.openresearchlab.org

The CEO of Anthropic in the Bay Area wrote of machines having “loving grace”, which are infinitely smarter than any human could hope to be.

Dario Amodei — Machines of Loving Grace

How AI Could Transform the World for the Better

darioamodei.com

Even the world’s most prestigious journal now asks how close are to AGI, when machines take over from humans in doing our most creative work;

How close is AI to human-level intelligence?

Large language models such as OpenAI’s o1 have electrified the debate over achieving artificial general intelligence, or AGI. But they are unlikely to reach this milestone on their own.

www.nature.com

This is not science fiction. It’s reality. These systems are here. They will take over. We have to get used to the fact that our future as humanity is changing. We were the dominant intellectual species. That’s not going to last. It’s inevitable.

Modern AI systems are trained on data that no human could digest in a thousand lifetimes. They are going to be much much smarter than us. What do we do? We can’t “pull the plug”! It’s too late. Any suggestions? I’m all ears. I hate to say I helped enable this technology for the past 40 years, but I did. I never thought it would happen in my lifetime. I’m as terrified by this prospect as are many of my colleagues who are leading AI experts. But we have no voice in stopping the technology. It’s too late for that.

 

[Steve williams]

We are in the midst of the most radical technological transformation that society has ever seen. Most people are only dimly aware of how rapidly their world is going to change. AI systems, powered by the richest and most powerful corporations in history, are going to rule all our lives.

Not all the changes will be bad. Huge improvements in processes will happen, like inventing life saving drugs in a fraction of the time needed earlier. This year two Nobel prizes in physics and chemistry went to AI. Many more will follow in years to come. But there will be undoubtedly huge job displacements as companies need far fewer people to do mundane office work. From Wall Street — where investment banking will likely see enormous reductions in staffing — to paralegals to software developers, the job cuts will be painful and deep. Paradoxically the folks least affected will be the “blue collar” workers — it’s a great time to learn a trade like plumbing!

What will most people do? Well, here’s what the Bay Area billionaires themselves have said on this topic.

Open AI is a proponent of Universal Basic Income. You get a basic living wage salary because you are a human. They have funded studies on this idea.

Unconditional Cash Study

OpenResearch is a nonprofit research lab that seeks to answer open-ended questions.

www.openresearchlab.org

The CEO of Anthropic in the Bay Area wrote of machines having “loving grace”, which are infinitely smarter than any human could hope to be.

Dario Amodei — Machines of Loving Grace

How AI Could Transform the World for the Better

darioamodei.com

Even the world’s most prestigious journal now asks how close are to AGI, when machines take over from humans in doing our most creative work;

How close is AI to human-level intelligence?

Large language models such as OpenAI’s o1 have electrified the debate over achieving artificial general intelligence, or AGI. But they are unlikely to reach this milestone on their own.

www.nature.com

This is not science fiction. It’s reality. These systems are here. They will take over. We have to get used to the fact that our future as humanity is changing. We were the dominant intellectual species. That’s not going to last. It’s inevitable.

Modern AI systems are trained on data that no human could digest in a thousand lifetimes. They are going to be much much smarter than us. What do we do? We can’t “pull the plug”! It’s too late. Any suggestions? I’m all ears. I hate to say I helped enable this technology for the past 40 years, but I did. I never thought it would happen in my lifetime. I’m as terrified by this prospect as are many of my colleagues who are leading AI experts. But we have no voice in stopping the technology. It’s too late for that.

Thanks for your thoughts . I’m asking members their thoughts on proposals to our Terms of Service which I suggested above

 

[Argonaut]

Here, AI bots will likely have an agenda to promote some audio product or service.

• Bishop: [puzzled by Ripley's reaction towards him] Is there a problem?
• Burke: I'm sorry. I don't know why I didn't even... Ripley's last trip out, the syn- the artificial person malfunctioned.
• Ripley: "Malfunctioned"?
• Burke: There were problems and a-a few deaths were involved.
• Bishop: I'm shocked. Was it an older model?
• Burke: Yeah, the Hyperdyne Systems 120-TD III.
• Bishop: Well, that explains it then. The TD3s always were a bit twitchy.

 

[tima]

Having said this I too feel very strongly that we do whatever we can to prevent any member from using AI to enhance his posts without full disclosure at the time of posting. I don't want to be duped nor do I want someone pumping his chest with each post that he is the sole expert and the rest of us just better listen to what he has to say

I'm inclined to agree with your proposal, Steve.

I have two questions about implementation. It may be naive as I don't know much about the practical issues surrounding AI:

a) given the potential for a mixed post containing partial human and partial AI text, is your thinking that any occurence or degree of AI participation marks the message as such? I'm of the view that any occurence is problematic.

b) by what method(s) will text be determined a product of AI?

 

[thedudeabides]

If AI is more heavily using your writings, then one would expect that AI wording could look like your wording.
And then an AI detection could say that you sound more like an AI.

That just about sums it up. At some point, the line between deciphering the difference will effectively vanish. AI generated text needs to be banned. It really is that simple.