Social Media and High End Audio

[dcathro]

I don't want to be insulting but I was not interested in my point of view but rather what others thought. I thought that with the diverse group here on every side of the Industry that we could get some intelligent dialogue. I was wrong. I did not want to force this discussion in one way or the other. Jays naivety is certainly not describing everyone here trust that.
The industry/hobby - which depends on where you sit- has lots of issues. From the consumer side, the dealer side, the press side and the manufacturing/distributing side. The fact that most don't understand fully how it works and where it fails present the purpose of my post.
The information path is closed and IMO most companies do a very poor job of disseminating information. The lack of training on all sides and in the end the inability to deliver quality consistent results all are big issues. I can list another dozen or more but for now it will just foster more arguments. IMO most, not all, are left searching for mysteries without any clues ) Peter Green.
The reasons for this I have my theories and I am sure others have theirs I am part of the Industry and others aren't. I had a discussion with my client yesterday who is a Doctor, a successful Doctor, a very Smart man IMO, he is very well read, very curious and of course very opinionated. I was very interested in his comments that his clients now come to him quoting the internet and telling him what their problems are and the suggested diagnosis and course of treatment. MY friend who runs a famous high end restaurant that has tons of world class reviews tells me people tell him how to cook the food all the time and what he is doing wrong. I guess that my hope of an intelligent dialogue was a pipe dream.
The site and its decent into verbal chaos is quite tedious and really unproductive. I hoped to continue learning here not having to defend everything when for the most part I am here to learn, suggest, educate a little and enjoy. I tell me friends all the time when to comes to high end audio "EVERYONE KNOWS MORE THAN ME"

It was not necessary to post my opinion as that I am already familiar with.

Hi Elliot,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I did not mean that you needed to start the thread by stating your opinion, but you did need to clarify the objective of the thread - to have a sensible discussion on the issues in the industry.

I personally tend to hold back and only say something if I believe i can add value - if I haven't got anything good to say I think it is better that I keep my mouth shut. I also know very little about anything - especially the irrationality of human social interaction

 

[Elliot G.]

Hi Elliot,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I did not mean that you needed to start the thread by stating your opinion, but you did need to clarify the objective of the thread - to have a sensible discussion on the issues in the industry.

I personally tend to hold back and only say something if I believe i can add value - if I haven't got anything good to say I think it is better that I keep my mouth shut. I also know very little about anything - especially the irrationality of human social interaction

Your way may be better than mine LOL. Lately all the threads seem to end up the same way. This thread has just about zero to do with how it started

 

[Scott Naylor]

Hi Elliot,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I did not mean that you needed to start the thread by stating your opinion, but you did need to clarify the objective of the thread - to have a sensible discussion on the issues in the industry.

I personally tend to hold back and only say something if I believe i can add value - if I haven't got anything good to say I think it is better that I keep my mouth shut. I also know very little about anything - especially the irrationality of human social interaction

Are you sure humility and self awareness are what you want to offer this forum?

 

[PeterA]

Are you sure humility and self awareness are what you want to offer this forum?

Ron Resnick started this thread a while ago.

Introspection and hyperbole control

Words are useful only to the extent they help us distinguish certain things from other things. In this hobby, which generally is subjective listening oriented and thus usually not quantitative or scientific oriented, we typically use words, and not numbers, to express our subjective views...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[dcathro]

Are you sure humility and self awareness are what you want to offer this forum?

My favourite old sayings (apparently by Abraham Lincoln) is:

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and to remove all doubt"

 

[JackD201]

What is this thread about? LOL

 

[Elliot G.]

Lets try another one. This is the first part of a 4 part series by Jonathan Weiss from OMA. I have no affliation with them, don't know them or JW however I believe that his video's about listening and its place and importance are really well stated. I have tried a few time on WBF to discuss the difference between hearing and listening. Jonathan does it in a far more eloquent way.
Enjoy....you have to watch it to do that LOL

 

[Lee]

Lets try another one. This is the first part of a 4 part series by Jonathan Weiss from OMA. I have no affliation with them, don't know them or JW however I believe that his video's about listening and its place and importance are really well stated. I have tried a few time on WBF to discuss the difference between hearing and listening. Jonathan does it in a far more eloquent way.
Enjoy....you have to watch it to do that LOL

Good video and I think he is right and it is tragic. Look forward to the rest of the series.

 

[Elliot G.]

Good video and I think he is right and it is tragic. Look forward to the rest of the series.

i think all four parts are well done and i think the whole series was around a half an hour or so.

 

[picears]

If you are going to discuss something and try to be a journalist

As others may have pointed out (being this thread is now 10 pages long and I've not read all the comments), Jay of Jay's audiolab is not a journalist nor does he sell himself as one. He is a flipper and a Youtuber (who is trying to become a player aka "influencer" in the market.)

And this is an important point: most Youtube channels on audio topics fall into two groups:
1) people trying to make $ off of Youtube views and affiliate links. These folk are the foot soldiers for corporate marketing (e.g. Amazon). Examples: Audioholics, Andrew Robinson, Darko, etc (a whole lot of channels with few viewers.) I sort of despise them but I guess everyone has to make a living even if it is off the teats of Amazon.
2) hobbyists who are trying to get a foothold in the business (see Jay in this discussion, also Audiophile Junkie, Thomas of Thomas and Stereo, etc.)

Two smaller groups of people on Youtube:
3) industry veterans who know their career has transitioned from print to online. Examples: Guttenberg, Greg Weaver. There are very few of these.
4) true hobbyists not trying to be anything else. They may occasionally sell off what they make but it's not why they have the hobby. Examples: Skunkie, joppe peelen, etc. Also some clubs with channels (SF audiophile club). Not a whole lot of these


The other types of Youtube channels are clearly company fronts: E.g. PS Audio, Audio Excellence Canada, several east Asian retail outlets, etc., and I think we can just take them at face value as advertisements.

I have come across no channels that claim to be journalists doing audiophile videos.

There are some traditional mags that have Youtube channels (TAS, Stereophile, etc.) Herein we'll probably re-enter the discussion over these as "industry rags" or not and that stirs the pot so let's just note their existence and not make much of it.

Anyway, Youtube is constantly changing, a broth that is boiling over, and the corporate owner of Youtube keeps changing it to compete with Tik Tok. I think it not wise to try and pigeonhole any concept of an "audiophile" Youtube channel at this point. As I noted above the channels tend to group by types.

I think 5 years from now we'll look back at this and see that Youtube (or it successor) is the primary means of audio-marketing and information exchange. It's quite possible we'll see channels that are entirely manifestations of AI entities.

 

[Bobvin]

Thanks Elliot. Great video and great speaking skills, organized and coherent, does not appear reading from a prompter. If that was done in a single take pretty impressive — exposes other “content creators“ lack of preparation.

 

[Elliot G.]

As others may have pointed out (being this thread is now 10 pages long and I've not read all the comments), Jay of Jay's audiolab is not a journalist nor does he sell himself as one. He is a flipper and a Youtuber (who is trying to become a player aka "influencer" in the market.)

And this is an important point: most Youtube channels on audio topics fall into two groups:
1) people trying to make $ off of Youtube views and affiliate links. These folk are the foot soldiers for corporate marketing (e.g. Amazon). Examples: Audioholics, Andrew Robinson, Darko, etc (a whole lot of channels with few viewers.) I sort of despise them but I guess everyone has to make a living even if it is off the teats of Amazon.
2) hobbyists who are trying to get a foothold in the business (see Jay in this discussion, also Audiophile Junkie, Thomas of Thomas and Stereo, etc.)

Two smaller groups of people on Youtube:
3) industry veterans who know their career has transitioned from print to online. Examples: Guttenberg, Greg Weaver. There are very few of these.
4) true hobbyists not trying to be anything else. They may occasionally sell off what they make but it's not why they have the hobby. Examples: Skunkie, joppe peelen, etc. Also some clubs with channels (SF audiophile club). Not a whole lot of these


The other types of Youtube channels are clearly company fronts: E.g. PS Audio, Audio Excellence Canada, several east Asian retail outlets, etc., and I think we can just take them at face value as advertisements.

I have come across no channels that claim to be journalists doing audiophile videos.

There are some traditional mags that have Youtube channels (TAS, Stereophile, etc.) Herein we'll probably re-enter the discussion over these as "industry rags" or not and that stirs the pot so let's just note their existence and not make much of it.

Anyway, Youtube is constantly changing, a broth that is boiling over, and the corporate owner of Youtube keeps changing it to compete with Tik Tok. I think it not wise to try and pigeonhole any concept of an "audiophile" Youtube channel at this point. As I noted above the channels tend to group by types.

I think 5 years from now we'll look back at this and see that Youtube (or it successor) is the primary means of audio-marketing and information exchange. It's quite possible we'll see channels that are entirely manifestations of AI entities.

FYI- my comment about journalism was directed to the IMO the one sided stroy about the badly finished speakers. At the time of his video there were no comments from the manufacturer ( and by the way he ( NOT JAY) did not contact the manufacturer for their side of the story, I checked ) and their was no comments from the dealer. This was his friend the consumer telling his side and his side alone.
Just for points of information about how all this works
Companies deal with their customer AKA the dealer and the dealer deals with their customer aka the end user.
Could it have been possible that something was lost in the conversation?
This is what I was disgussing about journalism. Jay's video was not about that.

I dont disagree about the Youtube channels being the beginning of something that has a long way to go to understand what it will become and whether that is something good, bad or inbetween. At his point with most audio channels having a relativly small following the results aren't apparent as to thier overall effectiveness. In other Industries these channels have considerable impact.

 

[NC Lee]

Hi Rob, Im simply curious. Do you think "Professional Journalists" paid by the same magazines that certain manufacturers pay for advertising are actually even able to say anything negative about a brand that pays for ads ?? Journalists are just that... hired writers.. they may be great at writing yet know nothing about room setup and component matching.. I just read a review in one of the most prominent audio mags, where the reviewer starts out by telling us he put a Corn Hole beanbag on top of the amp. then later says he made the amp worthy of review by using a AudioQuest entry level cable ..ROFL.. Then tells us his house is ungrounded and uses 2 prong receptacles.... These are the "Professional Journalists" of which you speak... YouTube gives guys with FAR more audio experience than the Journalists to make vids and reach the masses. Oh-Oh... Fox in the henhouse... and the hens sure get upset !! Weve got no Boss to listen to and we voice our truthful opinion.. Because of YouTube, Ive got World Class clients now because they can listen to my comparisons, and I open the gear up to show the build quality or lack thereof.. So there are words by journalists and proof by others... By the way, Ill be at AXPONA to say out loud everything Ive ever said on social media... Because I'm not faking.. I have a stand and an opinion, and it does not change based on whos paying me.. because the end users pay me and Im on their side.. I'm an advocate for the High End buyer..

You can find a very positive review of every product made.

 

[Ron Resnick]

As others may have pointed out (being this thread is now 10 pages long and I've not read all the comments), Jay of Jay's audiolab is not a journalist nor does he sell himself as one. He is a flipper and a Youtuber (who is trying to become a player aka "influencer" in the market.)

And this is an important point: most Youtube channels on audio topics fall into two groups:
1) people trying to make $ off of Youtube views and affiliate links. These folk are the foot soldiers for corporate marketing (e.g. Amazon). Examples: Audioholics, Andrew Robinson, Darko, etc (a whole lot of channels with few viewers.) I sort of despise them but I guess everyone has to make a living even if it is off the teats of Amazon.
2) hobbyists who are trying to get a foothold in the business (see Jay in this discussion, also Audiophile Junkie, Thomas of Thomas and Stereo, etc.)

Two smaller groups of people on Youtube:
3) industry veterans who know their career has transitioned from print to online. Examples: Guttenberg, Greg Weaver. There are very few of these.
4) true hobbyists not trying to be anything else. They may occasionally sell off what they make but it's not why they have the hobby. Examples: Skunkie, joppe peelen, etc. Also some clubs with channels (SF audiophile club). Not a whole lot of these


The other types of Youtube channels are clearly company fronts: E.g. PS Audio, Audio Excellence Canada, several east Asian retail outlets, etc., and I think we can just take them at face value as advertisements.

I have come across no channels that claim to be journalists doing audiophile videos.

There are some traditional mags that have Youtube channels (TAS, Stereophile, etc.) Herein we'll probably re-enter the discussion over these as "industry rags" or not and that stirs the pot so let's just note their existence and not make much of it.

Anyway, Youtube is constantly changing, a broth that is boiling over, and the corporate owner of Youtube keeps changing it to compete with Tik Tok. I think it not wise to try and pigeonhole any concept of an "audiophile" Youtube channel at this point. As I noted above the channels tend to group by types.

I think 5 years from now we'll look back at this and see that Youtube (or it successor) is the primary means of audio-marketing and information exchange. It's quite possible we'll see channels that are entirely manifestations of AI entities.

Hello picears,

Is it your intention that the four categories above compose the universe of possibilities?

If yes, in which category do you consider my videos (Masters & Makers interviews, audio show reports, What's Hot on What's Best updates) to fit?

 

[NC Lee]

Mr. Powell,

May I introduce myself? My name is Mr. Sami. That covered may I propose a wager that involves pain and loss?

A shootout to be judged by a panel of say five listeners to visit us both and assess a predetermined list of say ten titles?

We, that is you and I, would cover all their travel and accommodation costs.

Winner takes all.

Should you wish to publicize the contest on Youtube you may do so.

Kindest regards, G.

Six likes for it so far so I may be an outlier, but chest puffing confrontational posts like this turn me off to both the site and the poster.
How does this advance the hobby or our the enjoyment of it?
Just sayin' ....

 

[Ron Resnick]

Six likes for it so far so I may be an outlier, but chest puffing confrontational posts like this turn me off to both the site

Please don't blame the site for a member's post!

 

[Lee]

A few thoughts:

1. Elliot is not a journalist but he does know audio really well due to a deep level of experience. I don't always agree with him but we have many, many areas of agreement. But I closely listen to him on our calls as I think he brings a very experienced perspective. I think he also carries some really cool and valuable brands. I am especially impressed with Oliver Goebel.

2. I spoke to Rockport in depth on what went down. I am convinced they did the right thing.

3. Most of my career pre-TAS was in AI, machine learning in specific, and predictive modeling. It will be quite some time before AI can create subjective judgments of audio gear.

4. I created the TAS YouTube channel as part of our corporate strategy refresh in 2020. TAS realized that many of our readers were getting information there. TAS has to be there and it's also a good way to enlarge our audience. We also got on the Zinio platform which helps us reach the Asian markets.

5. Tom Martin, myself, and others are properly reviewing gear as journalists on our YouTube channel. We believe that there is a consumer buying cycle and video reviews are a great to introduce a product and then a bit later more in-depth print review adds in the "analytical" level details which so many audiophiles appreciate. The third stage, if you will, is for the audiophile to get a demo at their local store.

 

[NC Lee]

What’s the end game of these interactions? Are we on some sort of competitive endeavors that we need to understand other's subjective preferences, vanquish misunderstandings and mistaken assumptions?

Respect for others?

 

[hopkins]

Lets try another one. This is the first part of a 4 part series by Jonathan Weiss from OMA. I have no affliation with them, don't know them or JW however I believe that his video's about listening and its place and importance are really well stated. I have tried a few time on WBF to discuss the difference between hearing and listening. Jonathan does it in a far more eloquent way.
Enjoy....you have to watch it to do that LOL

He makes a case for hifi by painting a very bleak picture of modern life - scare tactics ?

The arguments all seem very logical, but we all know that you really don't need extreme audiophile equipment to appreciate music. Music appreciation and perfecting sound reproduction are two different things.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I watched the vid , Lets fix that ???
Most people just are not interested in high end audio , its just not something they would spend money on .
You don t need to fix that why , let people do what they want .
He wants to sell more of his stuff , thats clear .

And with all these " by appointment dealers " and high prices these days the entry is getting higher and higher .
Magazines should also stop with proclaiming that high dollar 200 -300 K speakers sound miles better than a 30 - 50 K set .
Most of the time its the audiophile himself who needs to make it sound like a coherent whole..
And stop with with this expensive cable nonsense , it puts newcomers off .
They should advice people to spend money on things that really matter like amps / speakers / sources / rooms