Speaker/Room calibration

[theguesswho]

Hi Bruce, It has been a bit of time since any advance in this thread, as far as examining your speakers with REW. The reason for my post is that I read where you state in another post that you felt that all of the controls on your speakers did not help you adjust the speakers to the room. Did you indeed sell the MM3s and change to new speakers? I am curious because you said,
"Even though my last speakers had an active bottom end, I still couldn't integrate them well in my room.... even with all the variable settings. Maybe it was too complex for the end user. Dealer setup would have been nice...."

I am not quite sure why you feel this way, at one point you put the speakers on the other side of the room and showed a graph that was close to perfect, without EQ and with your speaker controls set to flat! (isn't that what we want?)

Did you ever try additional subs as you had mentioned?
What are your new speakers? When are we going to see REW measurements of these speakers?

Thanks, Wendell

 

[Bruce B]

Hi Bruce, It has been a bit of time since any advance in this thread, as far as examining your speakers with REW. The reason for my post is that I read where you state in another post that you felt that all of the controls on your speakers did not help you adjust the speakers to the room. Did you indeed sell the MM3s and change to new speakers? I am curious because you said,
"Even though my last speakers had an active bottom end, I still couldn't integrate them well in my room.... even with all the variable settings. Maybe it was too complex for the end user. Dealer setup would have been nice...."

I am not quite sure why you feel this way, at one point you put the speakers on the other side of the room and showed a graph that was close to perfect, without EQ and with your speaker controls set to flat! (isn't that what we want?)

Did you ever try additional subs as you had mentioned?
What are your new speakers? When are we going to see REW measurements of these speakers?

Thanks, Wendell

Hi Wendell,

Yes, I sold the MM3's because with all the available adjustments, I still could not integrate the speakers properly into the room. There was no help from the vendor either. The last graph that was shown was indeed pretty flat, but that was with 2 subs that I had purchased to get buy until I could get better speakers with vendor support. The new speakers, Wilson Alexia's, were installed about 3 weeks ago and have been breaking in nicely. Peter McGrath will be out soon to put them in their final position on spikes and I will be posting room graphs of those. You can read about the Alexia install HERE.

 

[audioguy]

Hi Wendell,I still could not integrate the speakers properly into the room. There was no help from the vendor either.

That speaks volumes. So the purchaser of a $75,000 pair of speakers (or whatever they cost) could not get help from the vendor to make them work?

I'm not in the market for any speakers but if I were, that company sure would not be on the list!

Since Mike Lavigne is getting support for his speakers from the same company, maybe you just didn't spend enough on your speakers !!

 

[dallasjustice]

Or maybe a mastering engineer, presumably buying speakers on accommodation, should know how to use a microphone to find the best spot to set them up in their room.

I've owned Evolution speakers. The controls are mostly for fine tuning bass. If you know where to put the speakers and your seated position, the controls are just icing on the cake. You can't expect anyone else to do that for you. Speaker manufactures are not acousticians. If you did use a mic and still couldn't get them to sound right, then maybe the speakers were a poor match for your room. That's not the manufacturer's fault. The MM3s are certainly capable speakers; eg. Mike Levine. That's just part of learning what works best in your room.

That speaks volumes. So the purchaser of a $75,000 pair of speakers (or whatever they cost) could not get help from the vendor to make them work?

I'm not in the market for any speakers but if I were, that company sure would not be on the list!

Since Mike Lavigne is getting support for his speakers from the same company, maybe you just didn't spend enough on your speakers !!

 

[audioguy]

Or maybe a mastering engineer, presumably buying speakers on accommodation, should know how to use a microphone to find the best spot to set them up in their room.

I've owned Evolution speakers. The controls are mostly for fine tuning bass. If you know where to put the speakers and your seated position, the controls are just icing on the cake. You can't expect anyone else to do that for you. Speaker manufactures are not acousticians. If you did use a mic and still couldn't get them to sound right, then maybe the speakers were a poor match for your room. That's not the manufacturer's fault. The MM3s are certainly capable speakers; eg. Mike Levine. That's just part of learning what works best in your room.

Really? I have no doubt that if I purchased a pair of Wilson $75,000 speakers, I would end up with someone from the manufacturer or dealer providing assistance. In fact, I certainly got that when I purchased a pair of Wilson $17,000 speakers.

I still maintain that is unacceptable support for a speaker at that price point. But you get to disagree!!!!

 

[dallasjustice]

Are your speakers still in the same position your dealer set them up in your room? I know mine aren't.

Really? I have no doubt that if I purchased a pair of Wilson $75,000 speakers, I would end up with someone from the manufacturer or dealer providing assistance. In fact, I certainly got that when I purchased a pair of Wilson $17,000 speakers.

I still maintain that is unacceptable support for a speaker at that price point. But you get to disagree!!!!

 

[Bruce B]

Since Mike Lavigne is getting support for his speakers from the same company, maybe you just didn't spend enough on your speakers !!

Kevin has never been to Mike's house.... even when he had the MM3's. Several people (friends) came to his room and did measurements. Jonathan was over there dozens of times. Jonathan was here when my speakers were delivered but that was it. I tried contacting Kevin several times and finally got a reply after 1 year.... I'm not going into the details, but let's just say I'm glad they're gone.

Or maybe a mastering engineer, presumably buying speakers on accommodation, should know how to use a microphone to find the best spot to set them up in their room.

Mastering engineers don't use microphones. Recording engineers do... but I guess you already knew that.


What makes you think I got speakers on accommodation? Do you know how much I paid for them? I bought a pair of "demo" Wilson W/P 7's and the dealer was out here several times. When I got the Alexia's, I had the initial set-up. I have another appt. with the dealer coming out in a week and Peter McGrath will be out here soon as well..... and they're not even a month old!

 

[dallasjustice]

Bruce,
Wouldn't it be more convenient for you to be able to move the speakers in your room without needing to call someone else to help? My experience is that setting speakers up is rarely done in one shot.

I don't use a microphone in my job either. I hired an acoustician to teach me how to use one and how to set my speakers up. The results are much more precise than any dealer could do clapping hands and playing bass tracks.

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce,
Wouldn't it be more convenient for you to be able to move the speakers in your room without needing to call someone else to help? My experience is that setting speakers up is rarely done in one shot.

I don't use a microphone in my job either. I hired an acoustician to teach me how to use one and how to set my speakers up. The results are much more precise than any dealer could do clapping hands and playing bass tracks.

I'm happy for you...

 

[microstrip]

(...) I don't use a microphone in my job either. I hired an acoustician to teach me how to use one and how to set my speakers up. The results are much more precise than any dealer could do clapping hands and playing bass tracks.

Dallasjustice,

I have no doubt that the results are much more precise, but I doubt that using only measurements someone will be able to locate the speakers in the best place for stereo reproduction. I also have a microphone and REW, and use it to help avoiding the "bad" zones, but IMHO positioning must be carried by listening to many recording and takes a long time. Also, at some point, amateurs as me start becoming confused, and the help of a professional with large experience and the fresh ears of friends with different opinions are also helpful. And once we get an optimum positioning we should document it very precisely!

 

[asiufy]

It's really unfortunate that only Wilson Audio is able to see the value of this kind of thing (initial setup by the dealer).
A lot of good products are getting replaced by inferior ones because of this. A few brands need to understand that marketing is not only pre-sales. It continues afterwards!

I personally don't expect visits or things like that, but an answer to an email is the very basic you expect when buying an expensive product!

alexandre

 

[edorr]

Hi Wendell,

Yes, I sold the MM3's because with all the available adjustments, I still could not integrate the speakers properly into the room. There was no help from the vendor either. The last graph that was shown was indeed pretty flat, but that was with 2 subs that I had purchased to get buy until I could get better speakers with vendor support. The new speakers, Wilson Alexia's, were installed about 3 weeks ago and have been breaking in nicely. Peter McGrath will be out soon to put them in their final position on spikes and I will be posting room graphs of those. You can read about the Alexia install HERE.

Bruce, are planning to use subs with your alexia's? You must be missing some bottom end extension without the MM3's 4 x 15" woofers. I keep wondering if I should have upgraded my mains to something more modestly sized (TAD?) and added 2 x Gotham for the bottom end extension, instead of getting the full range mm3 (if only for aesthetical reasons, I don't like large speakers in moderate / small rooms).

Moot point for now, because no way am I going through the logistical nightmare of "trying something new".

I believe my mm3 sound pretty good in my room (same size as your studio), but then I am using Trinnov DRC. However, I don't get to listen to ultra high end systems a lot (if at all), so I have no way of knowing what level of performance in really possible in my room.

 

[microstrip]

It's really unfortunate that only Wilson Audio is able to see the value of this kind of thing (initial setup by the dealer).
(...)

Sumiko is known for its seminars on the Master Set program on setting speakers for their dealer network. Unhappily the instructions that circulate on the net for this technique are incomplete and even misleading. I have found many cases of Sonus Faber speakers setup by dealers in forums.

 

[Bruce B]

Sumiko is known for its seminars on the Master Set program on setting speakers for their dealer network. Unhappily the instructions that circulate on the net for this technique are incomplete and even misleading. I have found many cases of Sonus Faber speakers setup by dealers in forums.

I can see Vienna Acoustics or even Sonus Faber being sold to the customer with no support after they walk out of the door. They are pretty much a speaker where you position and forget about it. Now with more complex speakers like the MM3 or larger Wilsons, dealers setup and after support are a MUST! If 2-3 years from now I decide to move my Alexia's to another room you can guarantee that a Wilson rep will be out for proper positioning/alignment.
Speakers with an infinite amount of adjustability need to be set up by the dealer because the customer can not possibly extract every single bit of performance from the speaker. I could RTFM and understand it but to apply it to what was going on in the room acoustics and make the proper corrections was above my head.

I will see how much Wilson can get out of the Alexia's in my room and then I will think about subs to fix any issues if there are any. I don't feel I need subs to extend the bottom end since they go below 20Hz anyway.

 

[Amir]

Stirling created the Sumiko Master set up System.

Since then he has refined it considerably.

There’s a much simplified version attached ...

 

[sbnx]

@Amir, While the information you attached is correct it would be almost impossible for someone to execute a successful six axis setup with just what was provided.

 

[sbo6]

Stirling created the Sumiko Master set up System.

Since then he has refined it considerably.

There’s a much simplified version attached ...

Samir's back, the guy who asked me to join his forum and then kicked me out after I asked if he listened to what he reviewed before passing judgement. Let's see how long you last before stirring the pot here again.... ;-)

 

[bonzo75]

Samir's back, the guy who asked me to join his forum and then kicked me out after I asked if he listened to what he reviewed before passing judgement. Let's see how long you last before stirring the pot here again.... ;-)

That was Amirm, this is a different Amir

 

[Amir]

Samir's back, the guy who asked me to join his forum and then kicked me out after I asked if he listened to what he reviewed before passing judgement. Let's see how long you last before stirring the pot here again.... ;-)

I am not Amir Majidimehr
His id is AmirM and my id is Amir

 

[sbo6]

I am not Amir Majidimehr
His id is AmirM and my id is Amir

Apologies.