State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

Yes, thank you for participating. I am glad you are on the mend, and wish you a speedy recovery. As I mentioned, I think you are a very good author and write well and are no doubt capable of writing profusely each month. What I question is the experimentation, listening time and overall time spent with each product when doing ten reviews a month. The writing quality is Not an issue, the review process is. How do you move so many products in and out of your listening room? Or, as I suspect, these arent in-house reviews but rather day trips to dealers or something else? Personalily, i dont think i understand a component until it has sat in the system a long time. Amd that implies i understand the rest of the system, the room and the music…. That said, even if I did understand, I couldn’t write as well as you.
That's why most of my equipment reviews are of the more metropolitan-sized components that I can move in and out of the listening room easily. The bigger ones take longer to deal with. I run two listening rooms (one in my home in London and one in the office in Sandleheath) and the office one is larger and allows products to stay in situ for longer. This became intensely problematic during the COVID-19 lockdowns, however.

Tests based on go-sees are rare, and marked as such in print (as will be the case with an upcoming look at the MBL 101-Xtreme... none of our UK-based reviewers have a room large enough to house them anymore). Any such test ideally requires known equipment to benchmark and either prior knowledge of the room or some time to 'read' the room acoustics first. These go-sees became more common during 2020/21 with manufacturers and distributors in the UK citing 'COVID-19' and 'Brexit' as reasons why reviewers didn't get products for lengthy listening sessions, but we have collectively nixed the concept.

My audio listening training from the outset was based on a fast initial assessment followed by longer listening sessions. My time at Grahams Hi-Fi and especially the discipline honed by years of blind tests at Hi-Fi Choice were both reliant on conclusions drawn at a pace far faster than my current work; we would routinely test a dozen products in a single day.

The record was blind testing 180 cables (IIRC) in just under three days. That needed some decompress time and I would never do it again.

I don't work to anything that pace anymore, but those skills do allow for swift assessment.
 
Thank you, Alan, for your gracious and detailed replies here!
 
Yes, I appreciate the replies from all journalists in this thread. One of the best threads on the forum—lots of differing ideas, opinions and viewpoints. It shows how good the OP article really is, sparking so much…
 
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One of the more common complaints directed at high-end audio reviews is the absence of comparisons. Because of my throughput, I can go some way toward making those comparisons – or at least allude to them – through commonalities. It's often functionally impossible to perform direct comparisons in high-end because of logistics and swap-out times.
Direct comparisons might also lead the reviewer to either, displease one of two manufacturers (or two out of three, etc) or, revert to non-commital platitudes...

What I find particularly interesting and very sueful is information on speaker placement. Now, that's a very valuable contribution and can save many of us hours of experimentation: just begin by placing the speakers as the reviewer did and take it from there.

Now... if you excuse me, I have to catch up on all the work I didn't do thanks to my latest tussle with COVID-19.
Reportedly, lots of vitamin C helps us recove from the COVID induced fatigue -- for those who experienced some such!
Thank you for contributing here!
 
Direct comparisons might also lead the reviewer to either, displease one of two manufacturers (or two out of three, etc) or, revert to non-commital platitudes...

What I find particularly interesting and very sueful is information on speaker placement. Now, that's a very valuable contribution and can save many of us hours of experimentation: just begin by placing the speakers as the reviewer did and take it from there.


Reportedly, lots of vitamin C helps us recove from the COVID induced fatigue -- for those who experienced some such!
Thank you for contributing here!
The manufacturers can usually look after themselves. They generally take the results of a review on the chin, but some go off in a huff. There are always more manufacturers.

The biggest problem now with writing a negative review (apart from legislation filtering out a lot of the really bad products making negative reviews more 'petty observations' than 'justified rants') is the infuriated reader who thinks both the resale value of their pet product and their standing within the audio community has been destroyed by a lukewarm review of a product they either own or strongly support, and vents their spleen all over every forum and social media site they can lay their keyboards on.

An angry manufacturer might pull future reviews and/or advertising, but that's about it. Any more and it looks like 'there's no smoke without fire' and is more damaging to their reputation than it is to the reviewer. An angry reader with a few sockpuppets can spend months trolling ceaselessly until mud sticks.
 
great review in the current issue of Stereophile related to the subject of this thread, the state of our industry (pg 135). Chiarelli makes a great metaphor and characterizes the state of the industry really accurately. I enjoyed it, was a good read.
 
April or May issue?
 
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The manufacturers can usually look after themselves. They generally take the results of a review on the chin, but some go off in a huff. There are always more manufacturers.

The biggest problem now with writing a negative review (apart from legislation filtering out a lot of the really bad products making negative reviews more 'petty observations' than 'justified rants') is the infuriated reader who thinks both the resale value of their pet product and their standing within the audio community has been destroyed by a lukewarm review of a product they either own or strongly support, and vents their spleen all over every forum and social media site they can lay their keyboards on.

An angry manufacturer might pull future reviews and/or advertising, but that's about it. Any more and it looks like 'there's no smoke without fire' and is more damaging to their reputation than it is to the reviewer. An angry reader with a few sockpuppets can spend months trolling ceaselessly until mud sticks.
Alan, your writing here demonstrates you skill with the pen (or keys). I still think a window into the review process, journey and what components this one may synergize with, as well as more room, setup and the journey of audiophiles is needed to make the magazines feel ”real.” For example, I really like the HFA website. He does an ongoing series of his audiophile journey—what he changed over time and why. It is helpful. ”Here is this box. It is great. The best. Really wonderful!” is less helpful. All of that makes me step back and wonder who is this magazine for? Was the author writing with me in mind, the music lover out there? Or is it box in and box out review factory? Is there any corruption?

I am not the author you will ever be, so sorry if my ideas are adding confusion instead of clarity. Just my two cents
 
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I think its great that Alan and Roy gave their time to participate and give their point of view. The reason I posted the think piece was to start a dialog and address some of the issues that were pointed out in the piece. There are always a bunch of conspiracy theories throw around on WBF and its informative to see how some of the others in the Industry see the state of the Industry. I personally agree with much of what Roy wrote but certainly not everything. The Industry has dramatically changed in my lifetime. When I started it was all about American made gear versus what was made in Japan. Their was very little European products available here and most of those were turntables. Almost 50 years later the big American brands that dominated the scene are mostly gone or certainly not in the same positions they were in the 70-90's. The first time I attended Munich it was a whole new world with products I had never scene or in some cases ever heard of. There were a lot of them. That's some of my view and I think a part of what Roy was saying. The review process has changed and it had too as there are so many products available today that weren't around with J. Gordon Holt and Harry Pearson days. In fact the entire process and Industry has changed along with the technology to experience it and learn about it. The better question to ask in my mind is where do we go from here/ and how do we get there? Music is an integral part of life for so many yet so few are aware of the audio products available. IMO
 
I think its great that Alan and Roy gave their time to participate and give their point of view. The reason I posted the think piece was to start a dialog and address some of the issues that were pointed out in the piece. There are always a bunch of conspiracy theories throw around on WBF and its informative to see how some of the others in the Industry see the state of the Industry. I personally agree with much of what Roy wrote but certainly not everything. The Industry has dramatically changed in my lifetime. When I started it was all about American made gear versus what was made in Japan. Their was very little European products available here and most of those were turntables. Almost 50 years later the big American brands that dominated the scene are mostly gone or certainly not in the same positions they were in the 70-90's. The first time I attended Munich it was a whole new world with products I had never scene or in some cases ever heard of. There were a lot of them. That's some of my view and I think a part of what Roy was saying. The review process has changed and it had too as there are so many products available today that weren't around with J. Gordon Holt and Harry Pearson days. In fact the entire process and Industry has changed along with the technology to experience it and learn about it. The better question to ask in my mind is where do we go from here/ and how do we get there? Music is an integral part of life for so many yet so few are aware of the audio products available. IMO

I think the approach we have at TAS and hifi+ is to create more relevant channels to build awareness.

For example, a video channel seems to work well for product introductions and new product coverage in general.

Reviews seem to work well for more in-depth coverage of the components, later after the introduction has occurred and an experienced reviewer lives with the product.

The other thing the industry needs to do better imho is focus on the customer lifecycle which typically follows from early interest to a small system (the “metropolitan” customer that Alan references in his current editorial) and then to a larger traditional listening room style systems that we call “estate” systems. By focusing on the customer lifecycle the industry can create longer-term, more satisfying customers that will attract others. This is the strategy that Tom Martin and I created and are pursuing. Alan was instrumental in this strategy as was Pete Trewin, the publisher of hifi+.

The entry point is often some combination of personal audio, computer audio, and playing records. We need affordable but reliable and good sounding products there. And we need to cover these products on channels that young audiophiles, men and women, watch and pay attention to.

Finally, I would say the industry needs to promote itself via influencers better. There are, for instance, a number of celebrities that are audiophiles. We need to take a page from the watch and car markets and have videos of celebrities talking about their enjoyment of the hobby, much like John Mayer has done discussing his swiss watch collection on hodinkee.

Tom and I based on our strategy on data around how channels operate and what customer segments exist in 2022. And we did many interviews with manufacturers, distributors, and customers…it has taken us two years to figure things out. Fortunately, the manufacturers we have previewed it to think the approach is terrific.

We may not have it entirely right but nobody really ever does. We are going to experiment with a wide variety of things the next few years, learn a lot from these projects, and make adjustments as needed.

We are also realistic that a recession is likely at some point. However, that is all the more reason to try a new approach and create value for our customers.

Here is something I posted on Facebook recently which generated quite a bit of discussion. It does encapsulate our positive thinking on the subject.

Old industry thinking: Only a few people care about high end audio. There’s only so much pie and it’s not growing. To win, we must steal market share from someone else.

New industry thinking: The industry suffers from a lack of awareness, not a lack of fun factor. We can grow the pie by supporting any channel and any person that gets the message of good sound out.

What do you think? Is the approach right? Are we too optimistic on the “new industry thinking?”
 
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Lee, we need younger “stud” reviewers posting reviews and videos about cool gear. Instead we have a bunch of golden era reviewers in their 70s who just write the same reviews about uber expensive gear that has a more limited audience. Baby boomers still drive this industry which is unfortunate. Time to pass the baton to millennials with talent. Perhaps approach some of the younger online ones and take a risk. JVs latest reference died 10 years ago and Fremer is going the same route (no offense to them intended and they were integral to audio success years ago). Just like famous sportscasters needed to retire, so do reviewers. The industry needs to take a new step or at least adapt, I agree, and an infusion of youth would be a great start. Since you mentioned watches, Ben Clymer started Hodinkee in his early 30s post Great Recession.

that’s why half of what we read on WBF is all wrong. Bunch of audio nihilists that don’t care about the industry moving forward and everything best is decades old with magical glues used.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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You don't even know how old these guys are. I mean Fremer, yes, he knew Methusalah personally.
But Sjraen of 6Ms. Is he 50 or 500?
 
Lee, we need younger “stud” reviewers posting reviews and videos about cool gear. Instead we have a bunch of golden era reviewers in their 70s who just write the same reviews about uber expensive gear that has a more limited audience. Baby boomers still drive this industry which is unfortunate. Time to pass the baton to millennials with talent. Perhaps approach some of the younger online ones and take a risk. JVs latest reference died 10 years ago and Fremer is going the same route (no offense to them intended and they were integral to audio success years ago). Just like famous sportscasters needed to retire, so do reviewers. The industry needs to take a new step or at least adapt, I agree, and an infusion of youth would be a great start. Since you mentioned watches, Ben Clymer started Hodinkee in his early 30s post Great Recession.

that’s why half of what we read on WBF is all wrong. Bunch of audio nihilists that don’t care about the industry moving forward and everything best is decades old with magical glues used.

Just my 2 cents.

Keith, what is a younger “stud” reviewer? Are you talking about Jay on YouTube? He gets a lot of views and commentary on his YouTube review channel. He reviews gear that some old guys on WBF aspire to owning. It’s contemporary and is expensive.

there’s nothing magical about glue, but people do like vintage gear for the often great sound for less money value proposition, and it’s pretty cool.

If Magico or Wilson or YG or FYNE could produce a speaker that sounds like the Altec A7 or some JBLs for under 10 grand, people would surely buy them. Can any contemporary speaker under $20,000 compete with that sound?

What do you think the price of a complete audio system for the 30 to 50 year old hobbyist should cost?
 
we need younger “stud” reviewers posting reviews and videos about cool gear. Instead we have a bunch of golden era reviewers in their 70s who just write the same reviews about uber expensive gear that has a more limited audience.

Rather than say you want 'younger stud reviewers', tell us what is missing from today's reviews or how should reviews be different than they are now. Try to be specific perhaps using actual reviews as an example. Vague generalization is just that.

Well written informative exposition is not a product of one age or another.
 
Keith, what is a younger “stud” reviewer? Are you talking about Jay on YouTube? He gets a lot of views and commentary on his YouTube review channel. He reviews gear that some old guys on WBF aspire to owning. It’s contemporary and is expensive.

there’s nothing magical about glue, but people do like vintage gear for the often great sound for less money value proposition, and it’s pretty cool.

If Magico or Wilson or YG or FYNE could produce a speaker that sounds like the Altec A7 or some JBLs for under 10 grand, people would surely buy them. Can any contemporary speaker under $20,000 compete with that sound?

What do you think the price of a complete audio system for the 30 to 50 year old hobbyist should cost?
Vintage gear is often more affordable than the contemporary equivalent, but frequently require an overhaul, not unlike vintage automobiles, to perform at their original level. I doubt that most younger audio enthusiasts have the appetite to approach their system building from this direction. There is plenty of non Uber priced new gear that sounds very good, at real world affordable prices. Those pieces need greater focus, going forward by the reviewer community, to engage younger audiophiles.
 
Rather than say you want 'younger stud reviewers', tell us what is missing from today's reviews or how should reviews be different than they are now. Try to be specific perhaps using actual reviews as an example. Vague generalization is just that.

Well written informative exposition is not a product of one age or another.
See my comment above.
 
Vintage gear is often more affordable than the contemporary equivalent, but frequently require an overhaul, not unlike vintage automobiles, to perform at their original level. I doubt that most younger audio enthusiasts have the appetite to approach their system building from this direction. There is plenty of non Uber priced new gear that sounds very good, at real world affordable prices. Those pieces need greater focus, going forward by the reviewer community, to engage younger audiophiles.

OK. None of my non-audiophile friends is willing to spend over $20,000 on a complete system. Could you describe what you think is a good system for less than that? Specifics would be great.
 
Vintage gear is often more affordable than the contemporary equivalent, but frequently require an overhaul, not unlike vintage automobiles, to perform at their original level. I doubt that most younger audio enthusiasts have the appetite to approach their system building from this direction. There is plenty of non Uber priced new gear that sounds very good, at real world affordable prices. Those pieces need greater focus, going forward by the reviewer community, to engage younger audiophiles.

See my comment above.

Why do you think my response to Keith has anything to do with vintage gear? FWIW, there are almost no reviews of vintage products; review coverage is for contemporary products one can purchase today.
 
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Why do you think my response to Keith has anything to do with vintage gear? FWIW, there are almost no reviews of vintage products; review coverage is for contemporary products one can purchase today.
Tim, My comment had nothing to do with advocating the purchase of vintage gear. It was quite the opposite- it was advocating the review of affordable new gear. Sorry you misunderstood my point.
 

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