State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[Lee]

Lee, we need younger “stud” reviewers posting reviews and videos about cool gear. Instead we have a bunch of golden era reviewers in their 70s who just write the same reviews about uber expensive gear that has a more limited audience. Baby boomers still drive this industry which is unfortunate. Time to pass the baton to millennials with talent. Perhaps approach some of the younger online ones and take a risk. JVs latest reference died 10 years ago and Fremer is going the same route (no offense to them intended and they were integral to audio success years ago). Just like famous sportscasters needed to retire, so do reviewers. The industry needs to take a new step or at least adapt, I agree, and an infusion of youth would be a great start. Since you mentioned watches, Ben Clymer started Hodinkee in his early 30s post Great Recession.

that’s why half of what we read on WBF is all wrong. Bunch of audio nihilists that don’t care about the industry moving forward and everything best is decades old with magical glues used.

Just my 2 cents.

Keith,

Thanks for your valuable feedback. I think a younger group of reviewers does bring a different perspective. So we are working with younger folks on our upcoming YouTube channel and other channels.

But I also see value in older, more experienced reviewers as well. They have more institutional knowledge of the technology advancements as well as a wider and deeper base of knowledge of what brands and specific models sound like. They also are more experienced in the critical stage of setup. They have longer history with a manufacturer so that may help "open the kimono" a bit more in certain situations. So that leads to a very nuanced and insightful review with the right people when done well.

 

[fbhifi]

OK. None of my non-audiophile friends is willing to spend over $20,000 on a complete system. Could you describe what you think is a good system for less than that? Specifics would be great.

Peter, I was simply pointing out the likely additional costs and complications for younger, less experienced, audiophiles approaching their system building by choosing vintage gear. I am not going to build a <$20k system for everyone’s analysis and likely ridicule.

 

[Lee]

Peter, I was simply pointing out the likely additional costs and complications for younger, less experienced, audiophiles approaching their system building by choosing vintage gear. I am not going to build a <$20k system for everyone’s analysis and likely ridicule.

I think this is a fair point.

Also, with vintage gear, how does one do that with streaming? And if it's a vintage DAC are we not doing a disservice given the rapid rate of advancement in DAC chips at the more affordable level?

Vintage turntables seem to make more sense to me...

 

[Elliot G.]

Growing the business and bringing in new music lovers has zero to do with a reviewer. Reviews are for those interested in the subject. That is not the issue here. There is little interest. Other Industries have created the desire, the brand, the status and the desire to own something. Audio was cool for Hugh Hefner and Playboy back in the day. Who makes audio cool today? A reviewer? Please .. Where are the influencers? the celebrities? the sports stars? They don't exist/ This is the real issue and its an issue that requires MONEY and a lot of work. Young people like music but they don't sit in front of speakers and just listen. Music has become an accessory to their life, at the gym, in the car, playing ball, studying etc.
Every Industry has social influencers and endorsers . Watches have all of them everywhere, so does liquor, perfume and of course clothes and shoes. The sneaker industry was non existent 40-50 years ago and then they figured it out. They got Larry Bird, they got Magic Johnson, they got Michael Jordan. The audio Industry has BUPKISS!
I went through all of this many years ago trying to get AHEA and other organizations to invest and all they cared about was getting a review.
What STUD writing four pages on a piece of gear is going to turn the water on? The answer is 100 percent NO.
My company can't afford to get a star. Maybe someone else's can but the single most important factor about the audio industry is it is under capitalized. Almost no company can afford the cost of truly building and exposing their brand to the world.
You can have a review give me a social media influencer with a few million followers. Give me Doug Demuro, Super Car Blondie give me that Khardashian Kid. Let them want an audio system , let them tell their followers how cool it is, how much they HAVE to have one.
Stud reviewer sorry but that won't move any needles except to those who already read them.
What Roy G said about reviews is 100 percent true . At one time it was the audio marketing device. It has not been for a very very very long time.
Reviews have a purpose and a place but the marketing of an Industry ..NO

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I was simply pointing out the likely additional costs and complications for younger, less experienced, audiophiles approaching their system building by choosing vintage gear. I am not going to build a <$20k system for everyone’s analysis and likely ridicule.

Well I think this is part of the problem. If you eliminate vintage gear, I don’t see systems in the magazines for under $20,000 that are being discussed and attracting a new group of audio files. Everyone says these systems exist, but I don’t see people willing to describe them.

I would like to hear a very efficient contemporary speaker with Firstwatt amplification and a decent CD player. Very basic cables. Or they could hook up their iPhones to a DAC. The key is finding a new inexpensive efficient full range speaker and digital source that sounds decent.

 

[tima]

Tim, My comment had nothing to do with advocating the purchase of vintage gear. It was quite the opposite- it was advocating the review of affordable new gear. Sorry you misunderstood my point.

I never said you advocated purchase of anything. Peter did not mention vintage in his reply to Keith. Neither did I. You introduced talking about vintage in your comment to Peter then referred me to what you wrote to Peter. I asked why you thought my remarks to Keith had anything to do with vintage? You misread those comments or seem confused about what you said vs what you thought you said.

Vintage gear is often more affordable than the contemporary equivalent, but frequently require an overhaul, not unlike vintage automobiles, to perform at their original level. I doubt that most younger audio enthusiasts have the appetite to approach their system building from this direction. There is plenty of non Uber priced new gear that sounds very good, at real world affordable prices. Those pieces need greater focus, going forward by the reviewer community, to engage younger audiophiles.

The majority of reviewed components are not 'uber priced'.

 

[fbhifi]

Growing the business and bringing in new music lovers has zero to do with a reviewer. Reviews are for those interested in the subject. That is not the issue here. There is little interest. Other Industries have created the desire, the brand, the status and the desire to own something. Audio was cool for Hugh Hefner and Playboy back in the day. Who makes audio cool today? A reviewer? Please .. Where are the influencers? the celebrities? the sports stars? They don't exist/ This is the real issue and its an issue that requires MONEY and a lot of work. Young people like music but they don't sit in front of speakers and just listen. Music has become an accessory to their life, at the gym, in the car, playing ball, studying etc.
Every Industry has social influencers and endorsers . Watches have all of them everywhere, so does liquor, perfume and of course clothes and shoes. The sneaker industry was non existent 40-50 years ago and then they figured it out. They got Larry Bird, they got Magic Johnson, they got Michael Jordan. The audio Industry has BUPKISS!
I went through all of this many years ago trying to get AHEA and other organizations to invest and all they cared about was getting a review.
What STUD writing four pages on a piece of gear is going to turn the water on? The answer is 100 percent NO.
My company can't afford to get a star. Maybe someone else's can but the single most important factor about the audio industry is it is under capitalized. Almost no company can afford the cost of truly building and exposing their brand to the world.
You can have a review give me a social media influencer with a few million followers. Give me Doug Demuro, Super Car Blondie give me that Khardashian Kid. Let them want an audio system , let them tell their followers how cool it is, how much they HAVE to have one.
Stud reviewer sorry but that won't move any needles except to those who already read them.
What Roy G said about reviews is 100 percent true . At one time it was the audio marketing device. It has not been for a very very very long time.
Reviews have a purpose and a place but the marketing of an Industry ..NO

Elliot, Regretfully, I’m afraid you are probably right. We need to resurrect the ”Maxell Blown Away Guy.”
Now thats when having a two channel Speaker based stereo system was COOL….

 

[fbhifi]

I never said you advocated purchase of anything. Peter did not mention vintage in his reply to Keith. Neither did I. You introduced talking about vintage in your comment to Peter then referred me to what you wrote to Peter. I asked why you thought my remarks to Keith had anything to do with vintage? You misread those comments or seem confused about what you said vs what you thought you said.



The majority of reviewed components are not 'uber priced'.

OK Tim- You win! Are you happy now? BTW Peter most certainly did mention “vintage” but I’m done with this nonsense. Have fun.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

you don't need to go very far to find hundreds of thousands of people who appreciate music and good sound, just observe the headphone users. not every serious headphone user is an audiophile, maybe 20-25%.....but that's likely 20x or 30x the 2 channel audiophiles. these are mostly in dense urban areas, many in Asia. and it's healthy and growing.

i think mostly headphone use is a lifestyle choice of living space and cost of living. and to a degree generational. might be a reflection of social changes too. will Millennial headphone listeners graduate to 2 channel as they accumulate more assets?i don't see much of that at this point.

who is chasing this market opportunity? no one i can see. i think it would be difficult but possible.

i do think 'recruiting' people to 2 channel by way of some sort of influencer is not logical to me. to stick it has to be organic and fill a spot in someone's life who has the need and space for it. i started with an interest in high school and college, but having kids interrupted it. then when they were gone i jumped in all the way. it fit me.

this is not like world peace, having enough serious 2 channel audiophiles does not keep me up at night.

 

[tima]

Old industry thinking: Only a few people care about high end audio. There’s only so much pie and it’s not growing. To win, we must steal market share from someone else.

New industry thinking: The industry suffers from a lack of awareness, not a lack of fun factor. We can grow the pie by supporting any channel and any person that gets the message of good sound out.

Growing the business and bringing in new music lovers has zero to do with a reviewer. Reviews are for those interested in the subject. That is not the issue here. There is little interest.

I"m inclined to agree with Elliot or "old industry thinking", at least for now. While I'm not sure that only a few people care about high-end audio (there seems a goodly amount of interest, at a global level, based on participation here), however I don't see the absence of celebrity endorsement causing a lack of interest.

I think the immediacy of the Web and other screen based entertainment (movies, video games, home theater systems, etc.) require far less attention span than listening to music. Part of the appeal of streaming is the absence of physical media - simple clicking. There is not the same level of interest in sitting, listening to music, than there is with visual activities that push their attention upon you, or with social media keeping you on the edge of your seat waiting for replies or new news.. I do not think the high-end market suffers from a lack of awarenes -- perhaps a lessening of awareness in the absence of the brick n mortar store -- rather there is competition from sources that did not exist in the '50's - '80's. Interesting sound tracks may be doing more for high-end audio than pop music.

 

[Al M.]

you don't need to go very far to find hundreds of thousands of people who appreciate music and good sound, just observe the headphone users. not every serious headphone user is an audiophile, maybe 20-25%.....but that's likely 20x or 30x the 2 channel audiophiles. these are mostly in dense urban areas, many in Asia. and it's healthy and growing.

i think mostly headphone use is a lifestyle choice of living space and cost of living. and to a degree generational. might be a reflection of social changes too. will Millennial headphone listeners graduate to 2 channel as they accumulate more assets?i don't see much of that at this point.

who is chasing this market opportunity? no one i can see. i think it would be difficult but possible.

i do think 'recruiting' people to 2 channel by way of some sort of influencer is not logical to me. to stick it has to be organic and fill a spot in someone's life who has the need and space for it. i started with an interest in high school and college, but having kids interrupted it. then when they were gone i jumped in all the way. it fit me.

this is not like world peace, having enough serious 2 channel audiophiles does not keep me up at night.

Yes, headphone audiophiles is where it's mostly at with the younger generation. Some will move on to speaker systems, some will not. How important is it? That's debatable. You can enjoy sound and musical communication of high quality in different ways.

I started out as an audiophile 30 plus years ago with headphones too.

A friend who has a great speaker system also has a great portable streamer with high quality headphones (Focal Stellia). I've recently listened to that:

Wow.

 

[Lee]

I"m inclined to agree with Elliot or "old industry thinking", at least for now. While I'm not sure that only a few people care about high-end audio (there seems a goodly amount of interest, at a global level, based on participation here), however I don't see the absence of celebrity endorsement causing a lack of interest.

I think the immediacy of the Web and other screen based entertainment (movies, video games, home theater systems, etc.) require far less attention span than listening to music. Part of the appeal of streaming is the absence of physical media - simple clicking. There is not the same level of interest in sitting, listening to music, than there is with visual activities that push their attention upon you, or with social media keeping you on the edge of your seat waiting for replies or new news.. I do not think the high-end market suffers from a lack of awarenes -- perhaps a lessening of awareness in the absence of the brick n mortar store -- rather there is competition from sources that did not exist in the '50's - '80's. Interesting sound tracks may be doing more for high-end audio than pop music.

Tim,

The way I look at both of these quotes is that Elliot is agreeing with me that we have an awareness problem.

The value of the web and new channels is that they are essential to attract interest. People will watch YouTube and learn about the hobby there. They may increasingly be less inclined to go to Barnes & Noble and buy print magazines. No problem. Get them at the channels they watch and pull them into the hobby...then they will read the reviews. Elliot is perhaps right there as reviews are in part for the converted.

 

[Lee]

Yes, headphone audiophiles is where it's mostly at with the younger generation. Some will move on to speaker systems, some will not. How important is it? That's debatable. You can enjoy sound and musical communication of high quality in different ways.

I started out as an audiophile 30 plus years ago with headphones too.

This is an excellent point. When I first joined Nextscreen, we were talking about ways to reboot our headphone guides. What surprised me was that some very high end companies like dCS were interested in this market. Of course! The Bartok, even at what like $18K with headphone amp?, is the perfect upper end headphone product.

This also gets back to our "customer lifecycle" approach...gain their interest with $300 Grado earbuds...sell them a Dragonfly...sell them a better DAC maybe even going up to a Bartok...maybe get them into a desktop system...sell them a small system that fits into their NYC or SF studio apartment...oh wow big promotion! and now they have a house in the suburbs...sell them Gobel speakers with CH Precision electronics.

Not all headphone freaks will move on to desktop systems or even traditional two channel...but we see earbuds and headphones that are different on the street. That builds awareness.

More awareness...more industry profits...more R&D...more innovation...more of those elusive breakthrough products...more audiophile excitements...more awareness...repeat.

Maybe in a way, Roy was right when looking at the old print model...looking through that lens is unsatisfying. But the answer is not the death of print. It's about awareness and if you buy into that view then more channels are required...including print.

 

[Lee]

you don't need to go very far to find hundreds of thousands of people who appreciate music and good sound, just observe the headphone users. not every serious headphone user is an audiophile, maybe 20-25%.....but that's likely 20x or 30x the 2 channel audiophiles. these are mostly in dense urban areas, many in Asia. and it's healthy and growing.

i think mostly headphone use is a lifestyle choice of living space and cost of living. and to a degree generational. might be a reflection of social changes too. will Millennial headphone listeners graduate to 2 channel as they accumulate more assets?i don't see much of that at this point.

who is chasing this market opportunity? no one i can see. i think it would be difficult but possible.

i do think 'recruiting' people to 2 channel by way of some sort of influencer is not logical to me. to stick it has to be organic and fill a spot in someone's life who has the need and space for it. i started with an interest in high school and college, but having kids interrupted it. then when they were gone i jumped in all the way. it fit me.

this is not like world peace, having enough serious 2 channel audiophiles does not keep me up at night.

Mike, check out Alan's discussion of our new strategy in the new hi-fi+. We are now specifically addressing the living space issue with a small system focus.

In other words, the beauty of focusing on the customer's journey and various stages of life give the industry a better chance of filling those needs whether it be personal audio, metropolitan systems, and estate systems.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, check out Alan's discussion of our new strategy in the new hi-fi+. We are now specifically addressing the living space issue with a small system focus.

In other words, the beauty of focusing on the customer's journey and various stages of life give the industry a better chance of filling those needs whether it be personal audio, metropolitan systems, and estate systems.

i evidentially have a headphone lust and just think they are cool. the headphone experience can be very satisfying even to the poster boy for being all-in on a great dedicated room. they are different animals, each with their own appeal. i don't look down at headphone users, and hopefully they don't view 2 channel as negative either.

it's like object based multi-channel, or RTR decks, or horns, vintage or SET's....headphones are part of the audiophile landscape. twice now i've seriously pursued headphones at the top level, but then sold them off to support other 'lusts' more dear to my heart.

i was not a subscriber to HiFi+, but just now signed up for the digital version. i'll try to read that article, and comment.

 

[tima]

More awareness...more industry profits...more R&D...more innovation...more of those elusive breakthrough products...more audiophile excitements...more awareness...repeat.

Maybe in a way, Roy was right when looking at the old print model...looking through that lens is unsatisfying. But the answer is not the death of print. It's about awareness and if you buy into that view then more channels are required...including print.

The value of the web and new channels is that they are essential to attract interest. People will watch YouTube and learn about the hobby there. They may increasingly be less inclined to go to Barnes & Noble and buy print magazines. No problem. Get them at the channels they watch and pull them into the hobby...then they will read the reviews. Elliot is perhaps right there as reviews are in part for the converted.

I operate on the premise that high-end television, video games, and home theater (even high-end home theater) are not high-end audio. I also believe that there are many more forms of competition for a person's leisure time than there was 20-30 years ago. I do not believe people lack awareness of ways to spend that leisure time or lack awareness of what they like to do.

How many high-end audio dealers who still have brick and mortar stores were not compelled to add A/V components and home theater set-up services to maintain a customer base in order to survive? The market for sound bars and sub-woofers expressly meant for TV has exploded in the last 10 years - it was not until 2013 that Sonos even offered a sound bar. I know quite a few folks who built home theater rooms with their new houses - they did not even consider having a dedicated audio-only room. What percentage of people with a home theater use it for what percentage of time to listen but not watch? (HP took a stab at a high-end A/V publication, The Perfect Vision, but it did not last; imo he was more into video quality than integrating sound and vision.) I know too many people, adults included, who would rather play a video game than sit listening to a concerto.

It is from an interest in music that people gravitate to high-end audio. Imo, the gateway to high-end audio is music, not equipment.

I realize you are supporting your own marketing strategy - that is part of the job and you do it well. If I recall correctly, you are planning to invest more in you-tube type videos. (Can you monetize that?) It would not surprise me if you did not engage surveys about the 'entertainment market' to learn interest and on what do people spend money. Can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that a major problem with high-end audio is a lack of either awareness or interest in high-end audio systems for listening to music?

It is not my interest to argue but better understand how TAS sees the marketplace.

 

[Gregm]

I think the approach we have at TAS and hifi+ is to create more relevant channels to build awareness.

For example, a video channel seems to work well for product introductions and new product coverage in general.

Reviews seem to work well for more in-depth coverage of the components, later after the introduction has occurred and an experienced reviewer lives with the product.

Agreed, research suggests that younger people prefer audio-vid to reading text.

Finally, I would say the industry needs to promote itself via influencers better. There are, for instance, a number of celebrities that are audiophiles. We need to take a page from the watch and car markets and have videos of celebrities talking about their enjoyment of the hobby, much like John Mayer has done discussing his swiss watch collection on hodinkee.

This would be a game changer, and it requires serious rebranding for hi-end and awareness building / training. Mechanical watches & supercars, etc, are exclusive luxury items, globally known brand names admired and coveted worldwide. Hi-end is nowhere near that league.

In this respect, influencers are the way to go -- either that or full-scale advertising onslought on the luxury market -- which would be outrageously expensive.

Old industry thinking: Only a few people care about high end audio. There’s only so much pie and it’s not growing. To win, we must steal market share from someone else.
New industry thinking: The industry suffers from a lack of awareness, not a lack of fun factor. We can grow the pie by supporting any channel and any person that gets the message of good sound out.

I'm not sure the message "Good sound" can work as a determining factor just like performance is hardly the purchase-decision determining factor for Lamborghini sales.
I think that the industry has to shift the positioning upmarket, emulating the worlds of Patek Philippe, etc; then, Good Sound will come in as a support argument.

 

[jep123]

Luxury cars and watches differs from high end audio equipment in that these are items that other people can see and admire. This means a lot to many people, a high end system in a house/appartment is just for personal pleasure.

I have said it before; The high end industry as we know it is slowly dying because younger people does not care about sound quality and they are listening to music through their air pads and are quite happy doing so. It is "good enough" and they don`t give a crap if it is MP3 files or whatever.

It might be a good move (although risky) from TAS and other magazines to focus on more affordable products, this could attracte younger readers. Or have a negative effect on the current (older) subscribers in that they are (me included) not at all interested in reading reviews of cheaper products. I believe that there are we "older subscribers" that keep the high end industry alive today and are paying for the ad money the high end companies are using in the magazines.

 

[tima]

This would be a game changer, and it requires serious rebranding for hi-end and awareness building / training. Mechanical watches & supercars, etc, are exclusive luxury items, globally known brand names admired and coveted worldwide. Hi-end is nowhere near that league.

In this respect, influencers are the way to go -- either that or full-scale advertising onslought on the luxury market -- which would be outrageously expensive.

I agree - what I get from reading forums is that the vast majority of audiophiles are not into exclusive luxury brands known and coveted. Some may have a fancy watch or a nice car but I see no correlation to those and the high-end other than some have more money than others.

But influencers? Are you in marketing? A movie star? A platinum record artist? A celebrity who is famous for being famous? "Here at Dollywood we only use the best - and that means Magico speakers made in the USA." "Hi - I'm Michael Schumacher - I like Mobil 1 and FlexUnit woofers from Audio Technology." Who counts as an influencer to you?

 

[Al M.]

Luxury cars and watches differs from high end audio equipment in that these are items that other people can see and admire. This means a lot to many people, a high end system in a house/appartment is just for personal pleasure.

Indeed. I never cared about appearances. In front of my rather unassuming looking house is a 6 year old little Nissan Versa (far below my professional "status", whatever that may mean ), which uses little gas and is a lot of fun to drive, but costs multiple times less than my stereo which is inside and basically for no one to see.