State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[PeterA]

I second that Lee .
We could also flip the whole discussion around .
If one doesnt hear what phenolic resin composite materials do with the decay of tones (for example a piano) , or bass definition due to no energy storage in the cabinet , there is something wrong with ones ears .

I hear that with some, not all. I heard it with my Magico Q3s too. My point has always been that I also hear it with some nice vintage speakers with relative loose and resonating plywood cabinet speakers too, sometimes even to a greater degree.

I have come to learn that the positive qualities you describe are a function of a combination of factors, everything that goes into assembling a successful audio system, beginning with information retrieval. The amps have a lot to do with it also. Speakers are much more than just their cabinets. The entire design is what we hear. Marketing prose has been very good at focusing attention on cabinet construction. It matters also.

From a visual / quality point of view the material is much more luxurious looking also
Mine look like absolutely new despite being manufactured almost 8 years ago due to the extremely hard material underneath the paint layer .

I love the look of the Magico aluminum, birch ply, and carbon sided boxes. They retained their luxurious looks long after they were built. And I recently saw some gorgeous wooden speakers 40-70 years old. They still look like gorgeous furniture. Aesthetics are very important.

 

[andromedaaudio]

My point has always been that I also hear it with some nice vintage speakers with relative loose and resonating plywood cabinet speakers too, even to a greater degree.

So there is no issue peter , manufacturers make what they want , and buyers buy accordingly .

High end manufacturing is often a thing of passion done next to ones profession.

If the goal was to please customers id open a McDonalds franchise , happy smiling customers all day every day .
And guaranteed income

 

[rbbert]

Which was, what? Our hearing degrades as we age? That some people are much more sensitive than others to sounds? Not exactly news flashes there.

What has been the consumer opinion (or marketplace success) of Geddes/Lee products?

 

[PeterA]

Well why should they post their 200 K plus efforts , if those efforts can be easily beaten by some old DIY horns and a cheap Set ,lol
It would only make them look ridiculous

Perhaps you are just joking here. I can't really tell. I was simply saying I miss these kinds of threads where people share insights into what they are doing. These system threads also tend to be less contentious, my Natural Sound thread being one exception. I guess I should not have mentioned names. It has nothing to do with cost or approach. It has everything to do with interesting content and sharing different approaches.

 

[morricab]

What has been the consumer opinion (or marketplace success) of Geddes/Lee products?

His speakers were pretty well received by a bit more of an undergound community.

 

[rbbert]

His speakers **were** pretty well received by a bit more of an undergound community.

**Which pretty much says it all. I know you will say that the difference is marketing, but consider how commercially successful speakers designed, built and sold based on results of listening tests by Floyd Toole's or Harmon's labs have been. For me personally , I admire most of those speakers but have never "warmed" to their sound, but that is not a reflection of their appeal to many listeners (and more importantly buyers).

My point? The Geddes/Lee research is interesting, but the relatively small number of test subjects makes the wider applicability of their findings open to debate. I would suggest that the marketplace, even with all of its limitations and hidden influences, offers a better description of general listener preference and opinion. However, I suspect that members here and most of the high-end community are both more discerning and more varied.

 

[morricab]

**Which pretty much says it all. I know you will say that the difference is marketing, but consider how commercially successful speakers designed, built and sold based on results of listening tests by Floyd Toole's or Harmon's labs have been. For me personally , I admire most of those speakers but have never "warmed" to their sound, but that is not a reflection of their appeal to many listeners (and more importantly buyers).

My point? The Geddes/Lee research is interesting, but the relatively small number of test subjects makes the wider applicability of their findings open to debate. I would suggest that the marketplace, even with all of its limitations and hidden influences, offers a better description of general listener preference and opinion. However, I suspect that members here and most of the high-end community are both more discerning and more varied.

I think you underestimate the power of marketing...

 

[rbbert]

Perhaps you are just joking here. I can't really tell. I was simply saying I miss these kinds of threads where people share insights into what they are doing. These system threads also tend to be less contentious, my Natural Sound thread being one exception. I guess I should not have mentioned names. It has nothing to do with cost or approach. It has everything to do with interesting content and sharing different approaches.

I don't think he is entirely joking, and Mike L.'s post reinforces this. Although your "natural sound" thread is not entirely to blame, it did seem to trigger more widespread "thread hijacking" (for lack of a better term) by what I call the horns/SET/system videos crew (although some of this group don't have horns in their main system and some don't post system videos; heck, one of the most frequent posters doesn't even have a home audio system). What is the point of describing your system's goals and evolution if you will be met with multiple responses telling you what you did wrong and what you should have done instead, illustrated by multiple low-fi system videos?

 

[MarcelNL]

**Which pretty much says it all. I know you will say that the difference is marketing, but consider how commercially successful speakers designed, built and sold based on results of listening tests by Floyd Toole's or Harmon's labs have been. For me personally , I admire most of those speakers but have never "warmed" to their sound, but that is not a reflection of their appeal to many listeners (and more importantly buyers).

My point? The Geddes/Lee research is interesting, but the relatively small number of test subjects makes the wider applicability of their findings open to debate. I would suggest that the marketplace, even with all of its limitations and hidden influences, offers a better description of general listener preference and opinion. However, I suspect that members here and most of the high-end community are both more discerning and more varied.

I tend to agree with you, never having heard (as I draw a blank as to which speakers were a result from this research) those speakers I do expect that the high end community is far more diverse (the discerning part I sometimes doubt, shiny boxes with loads of knobs and dials seem to be a big attraction for many)

 

[PeterA]

I don't think he is entirely joking, and Mike L.'s post reinforces this. Although your "natural sound" thread is not entirely to blame, it did seem to trigger more widespread "thread hijacking" (for lack of a better term) by what I call the horns/SET/system videos crew (although some of this group don't have horns in their main system and some don't post system videos; heck, one of the most frequent posters doesn't even have a home audio system). What is the point of describing your system's goals and evolution if you will be met with multiple responses telling you what you did wrong and what you should have done instead, illustrated by multiple low-fi system videos?

I see you point, thank you. Topics increasingly trigger these days, for sure. However, I do not see this horn/SET/(vinyl)/video brigade hijacking system threads and telling others that their way is the only way. I understand that many perceive this to be the case, but it seems more like simply an alternative approach to the mainstream. I must be blind to it. No doubt I am just as biased as I was before when I owned my much more mainstream cone/SS system. I did refer to it as sound "natural" too. What I see is people expressing their preferences in general threads, or in threads expressly about those specific preferences, and others who don't share the same preferences feeling like this is all people are discussing. I keep looking for all the Teslas on the road that I keep hearing about but rarely see. Heck, not long ago, I thought every discussion was about the $30K streamer, the new Wadax, or the new Lampi Horizon. They were all about digital and what is new. That didn't bother me at all. Topics ebb and flow, just like the tides. It is healthy and entertaining.

 

[MarcelNL]

I would not mind a moderator to drop some hints/enforce staying on topic when the discussion becomes to one sided, from experience I know that is a shitty role but every now and then necessary in any forum.

 

[PeterA]

well, er, the forum has tended toward polarization recently......the last few years. videos or not, horns or not. vintage or not. cones and domes or not. uber digital or not. natural or not. one way being more righteous or not. people withdraw into themselves. life is too short to invite conflict.

these divisions have slowed down the draw to open up about things.....as the camps close ranks in most debates. we would rather debate the direction of general things, bad omens about hifi, and.......not.......the joy of individual discovery.

there are exceptions for sure. the Extreme thread, maybe the Lampi Horizon thread.....where it's more joyous and harmonious. i know when i get the urge to share an insight, it's easier to just stay quiet. i still do it some. but not as much. and i feel less connected to members than i had prior.

maybe it's a natural progression of the forum. i'm sure we can all point fingers if we think about it. blame it on COVID, or Putin.

Mike, I agree. We live in a divided society, but I think the recent polarization seen here has little to do with the virus or the war. Music and audio is a shared interest for us. It is what brings us together on this wonderful forum. I never saw the system threads as discussions that invited conflict. I do think there are more approaches being discussed now, not just the more contemporary main stream approach. I see that as a good thing for all of us, though discussions can become quite contentious. I hope we return to discussing the joy of individual discovery. Tima is sharing his views now about his recent discoveries in Utah. Komodo is sharing his new room. Tang is sharing his cables, cartridges, and music. These are all about joy and discovery.

You used to have an active system thread. It seems to have been replaced by the Wadax thread, at least this is where you are increasingly sharing your progress with all manner of optimizing your new source component. To me, that is a big shift. It becomes more about the product than about what MikeL is doing and discovering in his room. This is one of the shifts I see.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Perhaps you are just joking here

100 % sure im joking .
They have assembelt great systems / rooms with great software to suit.
And im sure each sounds gorgious in their own way .

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I would not mind a moderator to drop some hints/enforce staying on topic when the discussion becomes to one sided, from experience I know that is a shitty role but every now and then necessary in any forum.

not really a moderator function. it's a community perspective issue regarding tolerance and understanding of different legit viewpoints. righteousness is polarizing. creates winners and losers. losers tend to withdraw.

then we ask why aren't people with systems being denigrated comfortable posting about stuff? really?

some have the forum that they want. others not so much. they focus elsewhere.

 

[MarcelNL]

not really a moderator function. it's a community perspective issue regarding tolerance and understanding of different legit viewpoints. righteousness is polarizing. creates winners and losers. losers tend to withdraw.

then we ask why aren't people with systems being denigrated comfortable posting about stuff? really?

some have the forum that they want. others not so much. they focus elsewhere.

works for me!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I agree. We live in a divided society, but I think the recent polarization seen here has little to do with the virus or the war.

i was kidding....to soften the point i was making. we know where to point the fingers.

Music and audio is a shared interest for us. It is what brings us together on this wonderful forum. I never saw the system threads as discussions that invited conflict.

they should not, but certainly can....and have.

I do think there are more approaches being discussed now, not just the more contemporary main stream approach. I see that as a good thing for all of us, though discussions can become quite contentious.

they become agenda filled. which is ok if we have enough other activity that brings us together. right now, that's not happening. so there is a bit of a hole in the community activity. you can feel it...which is ironic......

I hope we return to discussing the joy of individual discovery. Tima is sharing his views now about his recent discoveries in Utah. Komodo is sharing his new room. Tang is sharing his cables, cartridges, and music. These are all about joy and discovery.

each person casts their own slant on their sharing. it's a choice. Tang for sure never does the righteousness thing.

You used to have an active system thread.

only on Audiogon. on WBF i open threads on particular topics but never a long term thread on my system.

It seems to have been replaced by the Wadax thread, at least this is where you are increasingly sharing your progress with all manner of optimizing your new source component. To me, that is a big shift. It becomes more about the product than about what MikeL is doing and discovering in his room. This is one of the shifts I see.

no shift for me. i posted a thread about the Wadax; prior i had a thread about the MSB, earlier i had joined threads about the Lampi Golden Gate, and also joined threads about the Extreme. i opened a thread on my dart-ML3 compare.

during the Wadax thread activity i opened a thread about my vinyl upgrade intensions, then joined another thread when i posted about the EMIA phono. i try to think of where will people find things logically.....not my own system activity place.

certainly i get into system tuning details in those threads related to that product....so they do become my hang out place at the moment.....which is my intent. i think that is part of my hobby approach.

my approach is to open threads about major products so when people search they can locate the information. there are threads i opened back in 2015, when i did my acoustical treatments. i can point people there when they want details.

 

[Lee]

But would we converge on that assessment??

Yes, I think so. Several experienced audiophiles and industry professionals have been over and remarked on the high quality sound and specifically on dynamics. The amplifier and speaker combination I have here is something quite special.

 

[morricab]

Yes, I think so. Several experienced audiophiles and industry professionals have been over and remarked on the high quality sound and specifically on dynamics. The amplifier and speaker combination I have here is something quite special.

I have heard it at a dealer here in Switzerland and would respectfully disagree. You want to hear dynamics, come to Switzerland and I will show you a few systems that so it in a realistic way.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have heard it at a dealer here in Switzerland and would respectfully disagree. You want to hear dynamics, come to Switzerland and I will show you a few systems that so it in a realistic way.

Does there happen to be a horn involved ?

Morricab you have all those mountain reflections.

 

[morricab]

Does there happen to be a horn involved ?

Talking about Alexia 2 and Audio Research monos +!Ref 6 pre