Stromtank Battery Supply / Sine Wave Converter

[Kingrex]

How about a 5 HP electric motor attached by belt to a 50A alternator motor.

You have a frequency drive attached to the primary moter. The CT are around the secondary telling the primary how fast to spin to keep the output voltage stable at 120v.

 

[Zeotrope]

What would that offer over a PS Audio AC regenerator?

 

[engadin]

The Stromtank is NOT an amplifier emitting 50/60Hz.
To the best of my knowledge, the PS Audio is.
Stromtank uses a DC to sine wave convertor designed by Fraunhofer institute.

What is best? Will the “best” concept win or the excellence of execution? Let your ears decide.

 

[matthias]

Neither Stromtank nor PSAudio is a good concept.
Much better is what Taiko plans for the next gen of the Extreme:
A battery controlled by a sophisticated battery management system feeds the Taiko DC-DC switching converter. So only one conversion from AC to DC.

Matt

 

[engadin]

Of course, a DC supply feeding the DC needs of a component directly is the best concept.
‘Unfortunately this won’t help the many components here needing AC.

Cheers, Ulrich

 

[matthias]

AFAIK, @romaz tested the Stromtank but did not like it and Emile from Taiko Audio uses the PSAudio but is not very happy with it. I would buy neither.

Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

Just to share my experience with the Tranqulity Bases: I own several and so I've tried them under various amplifiers including a Soulution 711 (which has a SMPS) and they made no worthwhile difference. Under various preamps (both tube and transistor), I heard small differences. They seem to...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Matt

 

[microstrip]

(...) I don’t want to feed my tube amplifier with electricity produced by a solid state amplifier, sorry. Instead I stick to regular AC which is produced by rotary generators.

Do you forbid your neighbors to inject their excess of solar power in the grid?

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

Sure. The sine wave inverter works by modulating a square wave as the carrier using a sine wave. That sine wave is often generated using rough samples in a table as the controller lacks the computing power to generate it on the fly. The square wave carrier will then need to be filtered and that is challenging to do well because of the high switching power.

A sine wave inverter can be thought of as a high power amplifier and with it, have a THD rating. I plan to do an in-depth analysis of them compared to mains power. For now, yes, you can do a good or crappy job of generating that sine wave. The response can also be load dependent with distortion levels varying depending on how much power you extract from it.

I just looked up the spec on Stromtank and it is rated at 2% THD which is the same as my lab grade AC supply.

One of the challenges of 3-state PWM inverters is RFI (this is mostly 1MHz and above--well outside audio range), so what I so is add these mix 31 ferrite chokes to wiring both inside and outside the inverter. Also all wiring going to PV panels if you're on solar like I am.

 

[engadin]

I trust the judgment of romaz, as he obviously is an experienced listener. I have read many of his comments.
Well observed, well written - I do trust his judgment.
Emile of Taiko fame did not like the Stromtank or at least has come up with a superior solution for the Extreme.
No argument from me here.

Otoh, there is a thread in wbf of a Taiko/Orpheus user who loves his big Stromtank 5000.
Then, there is me, quite happy with what my rather pedestrian S2500quantum mk II does for my frontend.
To the best of my knowledge Dan d’Agostino likes it. MBL uses them although Herr Meletzky and MBL have a far less than harmonious relationship.

I think, the better your mains electricity, the less filter, regenerator, battery thingies will help. Or even make things worse.
But there will be other homes with less than optimal in wall cables or noisy electricity - here a filter, regenerator, battery thingie will help a lot.

I live in an Engadin house built 1860, in wall cables are 1.5mm (at 220V … ok, new wireing 10 y ago) and will relocate in a few years to a penthouse with 50 other flats and two or three shops, bakery, café, whatever below. I do think both are situations where my Stromtank will be pretty helpful.
It certainly is right now.

Cheers, Ulrich

 

[matthias]

I do think both are situations where my Stromtank will be pretty helpful.
It certainly is right now.

Maybe, otoh if you have plans to upgrade your Extreme when the BPS is released the Stromtank will have then no benefit on your Extreme.
Perhaps the gain in SQ with the Taiko BPS is so profound that you do not need the Stromtank for the rest of your system.

Matt

 

[awsmone]

I am trying to understand what your trying to do here

you want to take AC and convert to DC to convert to AC to convert to DC

is there a few thoughts whether this is the best approach ?

 

[engadin]

Hi Matt,

there are still turntable, phono stage, pre, switches, internet box to be run from the Stromtank.
Taiko with bps? I’d love this upgrade, but I am afraid there are other invoices to be paid before …

Cheers, Ulrich

 

[mtemur]

Do you forbid your neighbors to inject their excess of solar power in the grid?

My all neighbors stick to AC line like me.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I think, the better your mains electricity, the less filter, regenerator, battery thingies will help. Or even make things worse.
But there will be other homes with less than optimal in wall cables or noisy electricity - here a filter, regenerator, battery thingie will help a lot. (...) (

Cheers, Ulrich

Can we technically define what "the better" means in your sentence? We all want "the best electricity", but we do not know how to define it. And as you pointed, subjective evaluation of mains devices is good for individual use, but useless for theory formulation or generalization. It is why I can't understand people excluding devices juts based of on posts of others preference.

 

[microstrip]

My all neighbors stick to AC line like me.

Did you ever had your mains analyzed?

 

[mtemur]

Did you ever had your mains analyzed?

No, I didn’t but I know where this question will lead to, existence of some noise and disturbance on the sine-wave etc. Yes maybe there is some noise on mains but there is also more noise and distortion on tubes and vinyl records compared to their rivals.

Even though there is more noise and distortion some people still prefer tubes and vinyl over transistors and digital. I’m one of them and I don’t like battery powered, oscillator generated and transistor amplified AC feeding my equipment. I didn’t like it when I first heard Stromtank and I still don’t. IMHO it sounds a little bit plastic and lacking lucidity and dynamic presentation of a good AC line.

On the other hand I’m not against a pure battery pack directly supplying power to equipment and eliminating AC/DC transformers inside the chassis but that’s totally another thing.

 

[onlychild]

I trust the judgment of romaz, as he obviously is an experienced listener. I have read many of his comments.
Well observed, well written - I do trust his judgment.
Emile of Taiko fame did not like the Stromtank or at least has come up with a superior solution for the Extreme.
No argument from me here.

Otoh, there is a thread in wbf of a Taiko/Orpheus user who loves his big Stromtank 5000.
Then, there is me, quite happy with what my rather pedestrian S2500quantum mk II does for my frontend.
To the best of my knowledge Dan d’Agostino likes it. MBL uses them although Herr Meletzky and MBL have a far less than harmonious relationship.

I think, the better your mains electricity, the less filter, regenerator, battery thingies will help. Or even make things worse.
But there will be other homes with less than optimal in wall cables or noisy electricity - here a filter, regenerator, battery thingie will help a lot.

I live in an Engadin house built 1860, in wall cables are 1.5mm (at 220V … ok, new wireing 10 y ago) and will relocate in a few years to a penthouse with 50 other flats and two or three shops, bakery, café, whatever below. I do think both are situations where my Stromtank will be pretty helpful.
It certainly is right now.

Cheers, Ulrich

That would be me, with the Orpheus and Extreme on the S5000HP. The tank is definitely not for everyone, especially at the prices they are charging, but for some of us, it really seems to be the only viable option.

I live in a densely populated area, downtown Chicago, with many neighbors sharing the same power lines/transformer. My power quality is very different from someone like @romaz who doesn’t have a single neighbor for miles in all directions. I have 50-60+ within a block, with majority probably on the same transformer.

I’m also super sensitive to HF noise, to the point where it becomes painful to listen within the first few minutes. Before getting the tank, there were many times I would let the tubes warm up for an hour, sit down to listen and get fatigued within minutes and that would be start and end of my listening session.

I’ve tried many 5 figure power conditioners and none of them could give me the 100% pain free listen I get with the tank. All other power conditioners were very dependent on the time of day. Sure, the tank has some qualities that can’t compete with the AC coming into my house at 1am, but I listen mostly during the daytime, when the AC lines are the noisiest.

To my ears, the tank sounds better in smoothness, low level detail retrieval, and naturalness than any other conditioner I have tried. It isn’t as dynamic as a Sound Application conditioner, but dynamics are not stunted either. Its pain free and very very enjoyable, at any time of the day I listen. Also, for me, it has the most natural sounding treble I have ever heard from my system.

This is my 2nd tank, my first was a S1000 which I found made everything sound slow and a little bloated, I would even say that dynamics on the S1000 were stunted in my setup. I believe it was due to high impedance. The S2500 QUANTUM and the S5000 are supposed to have a lot less impedance than the S1000. I do not find any issues with the S5000 sound that I did with the S1000.

Also, with either of the tanks I have had at my place, grounding the tank with the ground plug on the back has had a huge impact to the overall sound. Enough to say that I can’t listen to it without grounding it.

 

[microstrip]

No, I didn’t but I know where this question will lead to, existence of some noise and disturbance on the sine-wave etc.

Just asked because unless we have technical details on your mains your opinions little can be learned from your feelings.

Yes maybe there is some noise on mains but there is also more noise and distortion on tubes and vinyl records compared to their rivals.

People measured distortions of vinyl and transistors and we know there are technical reasons why people prefer them. As well as noise. Surely many prefer to ignore all these aspects and rely on magic.

Even though there is more noise and distortion some people still prefer tubes and vinyl over transistors and digital. I’m one of them and I don’t like battery powered, oscillator generated and transistor amplified AC feeding my equipment. I didn’t like it when I first heard Stromtank and I still don’t. IMHO it sounds a little bit plastic and lacking lucidity and dynamic presentation of a good AC line.

Yes, I respect you point of view - may others share it with you. However as long as I don't know what is a "good AC line", we do not know what is the threshold of preference.

I also share your feelings - rectifying mains to create DC to charge batteries or fill capacitors and recreating AC seems bizarre. But on a technical ground it seems the best way to create perfect sinusoidal and accurate mains. In fact , the best and more intelligent concept I have read was used by ExactPower - a small power amplifier was inserted in series with mains, just adding or subtracting exactly what was needed to have a perfect mains. But we can't exclude we prefer direct mains just because of its defects.

In some aspects the high-end is driven by sorcery - we even have a very well rated turntable having a tube motor AC power supply and no one had ever had the curiosity of putting an oscilloscope/analyzer on its output signal.

On the other hand I’m not against a pure battery pack directly supplying power to equipment and eliminating AC/DC transformers inside the chassis but that’s totally another thing.

As far as I remember long ago Hiraga did it on some of his amplifiers, Jeff Rowland did it more recently. However studies have shown that typical batteries have significant output impedance and more noise than modern solid state regulators.

Please note that I am a firm supporter of high-end preference - I am curious however about the why's behind our diversity.

 

[John T]

If you really want to know what is going on with your incoming AC: Have your power company place a recorder on your meter. It fits right inside the meter base, cool little device. Probably not all will accommodate. I live in a rural area, awhile back I was demoing a pair of Mono's. (Before I got my Mephisto) They had transformer hum. Naturally the manufacturer blamed my AC. Total BS. I never had a mono or any other amp hum before this. My power company (they were great) put a recorder on my meter. They were dumping the data every 3 days. This included THD, any voltage swings etc. This is really the only consistent way to actually know what is happening. DC-Offset is another important aspect to know. BTW the manufacturer backed off of their BS theory about my AC after I forwarded them 1 month of Data!

 

[mtemur]

However studies have shown that typical batteries have significant output impedance and more noise than modern solid state regulators.

as I understand from your sentence batteries are not good enough to power amplifiers directly due to high output impedance and noise but on the other hand they're good enough to power an amplifier (stromtank) that is going to power all audio system including the amplifier. isn't there a contradiction here? please don't tell me that stromtank solved the problems of batteries and using incredibly low noise and low impedance batteries. for me they don't.