Sublime Sound

[morricab]

The Mitsubishi Diatone speaker has a 12" ported bass and is 98 dB efficient. Most examples are 8 ohm but David has somehow managed to find a 16 ohm version. I personally believe that 12" ported bass will sound more dynamic than 12" sealed bass....every time.

Ah, I didn’t realize Diatones were from Mitsubishi. I have seen very cheap and relatively expensive models. They look a bit like Yamaha NSM1000s.

 

[morricab]

He is not going to beat me on this regard.

Nor I...ask my wife...

I have heard a pair of the 8 ohm Diatone 2S-305 and they were very enjoyable. Sound jumped from the speakers, all the equipment was vintage McIntosh. The opposite of audiophile sound.

There are many videos of Diatone set ups on YouTube, they are all in Asia.

you can find the model you mention for about 2k.

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo was correct. I lacked exposure to what is possible. I have now heard it. Size of speaker and typology of driver were not the determining factors.

Thanks Peter, but you have not heard it. This is the start. Great start, but don't stop now. Danger is always to think you have now figured it out and have a conclusion, only to find out conclusions change. They stabilize after a while but given how drastically different these systems are from yours (yes I am ignoring your comments on how you felt there was some similarity to yours) there is a long way to go to reorient yourself. Also, driver size does matter.

 

[morricab]

Why should a miserable fatiguing type of sound be considered "audiophile sound"?

Because that is most of what the industry pushes and therefore gets encountered at shows...

 

[morricab]

Good question. I will check tomorrow. I know that the bubble is off center for azimuth because I checked after I used the mirror. My SME armtube is not parallel with the headshell. Right now I think the arm is slightly up in back, but the headshell is slightly up in front. I suspect the bubble on the headshell will show it up in front.

I learned not to go by any of that, just listen for best sound.

I also use the mirror for Azimuth. I checked it against Adjust + and the designer of adjust plus accused me of cheating with his program before he came over with it (a PhD spent aligning laser beams helps in cartridge setup...who knew?). I assume you need cards because of the nature of the arm because many arms now have easily adjustable VTA.

 

[morricab]

Well Micro, I'm now blessed with an 80 plus sq m room dedicated purely to audio, and it's an absolute Godsend.

Does volume count? My room is around 45 square meters but the ceiling goes from around 3 meters to about 7 meters high...so volume is substantial...

 

[morricab]

Thank you very much Brad. Those are of course the key questions. I will try to answer them:

Q. Knowing what you now know, in which fundamental ways will your system likely need to shift to become more natural sounding?
A. I have been thinking about this question since the morning after I spent the first very late evening listening to David's big system. The first step was the proper set up methodology for the cartridge which David taught me in Utah. He did the same for Tang and other turntable clients. The second step is the turntable and the two NOS tonearms. The SME is excellent, but it is a different sound. From there, I think the next step is high efficiency speakers and SET electronics.

Q. Do you still feel that your system has a high degree of naturalness or has the visit dissolved this view?
A. I still feel my system is of the "natural sound" side of the spectrum. With the proper cartridge set up, it has moved to a higher level. The visit did not change any of this. In fact, the visit confirmed for me that I am moving in the right direction. I just now want to move further along the same path.

Q. Do you think there is still more to mine in this vein or will you need a paradigm shift?
A. With the many changes I have made in the last year and now with the proper cartridge set up, I think I am close to how far this system can go. I do not know what you mean by paradigm shift. My system with its big SS amps and sealed cone speakers is giving me what I feel is wonderful natural sound. With the exception of Jeffrey_T's system, it is the closest I've heard to David's systems. That may shock people, but it has so improved over the last year or so, that I could be happy staying right where I am, especially knowing that the big Micro Seiki is on its way.

However, I may well consider going further toward what David has. With his guidance, I may well end up with SETs and horns. We will see. I think of it as having a Volkswagen GTI now and thinking about getting a Porsche Cayanne, or 1980s 911, or lightweight GT3. These are all of a type, and very different from a Honda or Mustang. I started changing the system a year ago with the Ching Chengs, and DIY cables and the removal of treatments and air isolation, also the straight ahead speaker orientation. Now with the cartridge set up properly, I have achieved what I think of as Natural Sound. Other people surely enjoy other types of sound. Moving from big SS and sealed cone speakers to SET and horns does not seem like such a major step to me. It is simply a way to go further down the path that I am already on. I see it as is a whole approach and resulting sound, not component typology.

Hi Peter,
I am a bit confused by some of answers here. You mention a next step of high sensitivity + SET but then say later you want to move down the same path.
Which is it because it cannot be both.

It is possible that the visit created a bit of cognitive dissonance that you still need to resolve. This is what I meant by “paradigm shift”. You have been operating in the “measurements define good sound” paradigm of Magico (and to a lesser extent Pass) with lowish sensitivity, flat measuring, high tech material speakers and large SS amps needed to drive them (or do you...?). My guess is you have operated in that paradigm for a long time...or all your audiophile life.

To really hear what the other paradigm brings can be exciting...and disturbing. The question arises, can I get to that sound within my current paradigm by just pouring more money into more refinement of that style of system or does it require stepping out into the “high efficiency “ paradigm that doesn’t focus on measurements (They are still done of course) but things like dynamics become more important than a flat response.

moving from what you have to Horn + SET is a huge move from what you have, you may not realize until you have done it.

 

[tima]

To really hear what the other paradigm brings can be exciting...and disturbing. The question arises, can I get to that sound within my current paradigm by just pouring more money into more refinement of that style of system or does it require stepping out into the “high efficiency “ paradigm that doesn’t focus on measurements (They are still done of course) but things like dynamics become more important than a flat response.

Aka a paradigm shift a la Kuhn but within the audio world instead of the scientific.

Eventually the new paradigm gets institutionalized.

Does anyone go the other way, from high efficiency to low?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, I seriously considered a move from my Zus to Duettas at one point, but the concept of going from 101dB/1m to 89dB...in a 7000 cub ft room...wasn't lost on me.

 

[morricab]

Aka a paradigm shift a la Kuhn but within the audio world instead of the scientific.

Eventually the new paradigm gets institutionalized.

Does anyone go the other way, from high efficiency to low?

Yep, that paradigm shift...I read this in University (I was a philosophy minor to go with my Chemistry major) as philosophy of science was one of my favorite classes (also read Popper among many others).
THat's exactly what happened in the 1970s when transistor power got cheap and people decided they liked smaller speakers. Obviously, the analogy can only be taken so far...as audio might well be more cyclical rather than progressive. Just imagine though if the profi companies had stopped completely developing high sensitivity drivers and systems...the world is full of really good efficient drivers designed originally for pro use. THere was always a need for this kind of driver when you need loud and clean over a large area.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,
I am a bit confused by some of answers here. You mention a next step of high sensitivity + SET but then say later you want to move down the same path.
Which is it because it cannot be both.

It is possible that the visit created a bit of cognitive dissonance that you still need to resolve. This is what I meant by “paradigm shift”. You have been operating in the “measurements define good sound” paradigm of Magico (and to a lesser extent Pass) with lowish sensitivity, flat measuring, high tech material speakers and large SS amps needed to drive them (or do you...?). My guess is you have operated in that paradigm for a long time...or all your audiophile life.

To really hear what the other paradigm brings can be exciting...and disturbing. The question arises, can I get to that sound within my current paradigm by just pouring more money into more refinement of that style of system or does it require stepping out into the “high efficiency “ paradigm that doesn’t focus on measurements (They are still done of course) but things like dynamics become more important than a flat response.

moving from what you have to Horn + SET is a huge move from what you have, you may not realize until you have done it.

Brad, I am sorry that you are confused by my answers. I am describing a type of sound. You seem to be focusing on typology.

You can surely describe it as paradigm shift, but I see it differently. To me, the paradigm shift already occurred when I switched to “cheap Chinese junk cables”, rid myself of audiophile accessories, and reoriented my speakers to straight ahead.

The paradigm shift for me was to abandon the “high-fi” sound in favor of a more natural sound. You are free to disagree.

I did not fully understand this until I heard David’s four systems and understood what they are doing. It was then confirmed for me when I returned home to listen to mine.

Respectfully, you have not heard any of the systems on which I am basing my conclusions.

 

[morricab]

Brad, I am sorry that you are confused by my answers. I am describing a type of sound. You seem to be focusing on typology.

You can surely describe it as paradigm shift, but I see it differently. To me, the paradigm shift already occurred when I switched to “cheap Chinese junk cables”, rid myself of audiophile accessories, and reoriented my speakers to straight ahead.

The paradigm shift for me was to abandon the “high-fi” sound in favor of a more natural sound. You are free to disagree.

I did not fully understand this until I heard David’s four systems and understood what they are doing. It was then confirmed for me when I returned home to listen to mine.

Respectfully, you have not heard any of the systems on which I am basing my conclusions.

I get you are describing a sound, but you can't divorce the sound from the gear that makes it...they leave their indelible fingerprints all over the sonic signature. David gets a sound that is natural (of this I have no doubt) because of his meticulous gear choices and his meticulous TT setup (as you noticed he doesn't hold much stock in tidy cabling impacting the sound) that are geared towards that kind of sound. I guess he spent two or three decades honing that to a fine point.

But you see Peter i have heard a LOT of things that are very similar to what David has (Even Bionors...a long time ago now)...this kind of stuff is more common in Europe than it is in the US it seems. I have owned (and still own) numerous SETs (since 2004) and I own horns (two pairs) and have friends with horns and heard some of the best vintage stuff (at homes in Germany and Munich show...11 years in a row... I get where David is with his sound and what he means by natural. I am perhaps not as far down the rabbit hole as he is (but then as you have seen, who is?) but I am definitely in the same paradigm on how to achieve natural sound.

I talk about typology because that is what is defining the paradigms from my view...it has to be about the gear because that is what is reproducing the signal on the recording...and I (and I would expect David to agree) think the type of gear to get closer (there is never actually getting there...a perfect realism) matters. Not just a better cone/dome box speaker will get you there but a different type of speaker will get you closer. Not just a better transistor amp but a different type of amp altogether will get you closer. About cables n' stuff, yes it all matters but it is often only in a system context that it becomes clear what works and what doesn't. First the type of system should be set then adjustments to get the most out of great basic fundamental ingredients.

 

[bonzo75]

Aka a paradigm shift a la Kuhn but within the audio world instead of the scientific.

Eventually the new paradigm gets institutionalized.

Does anyone go the other way, from high efficiency to low?

Depends at what level of high or low efficiency one is. I could easily oscillate between Martin Logans, apogee, devore orangutans, and tannoy, and well done Avalon, zellaton, YG, etc could be better, though very tough to get right in terms of blend of room etc. and the latter could compare with the trios, universum, Anima, depending on tastes, very easy to get right, and then you could ascend those with DIY horns again. Horn systems at the highest level are very esoteric. For a great Altec there are 10 poor altecs.

and I would not touching any of the "so called" horns. By so called I mean those that people consider high efficiency but are quite poor in my opinion, like duos. A lot of speakers like this around in the guise of high efficiency

 

[PeterA]

Aka a paradigm shift a la Kuhn but within the audio world instead of the scientific.

Eventually the new paradigm gets institutionalized.

Does anyone go the other way, from high efficiency to low?

Yes. KeithR, after an exhaustive year long search, went from high-efficiency Devores to challenging to drive YG Haileys.

 

[morricab]

Yes. KeithR, after an exhaustive year long search, went from high-efficiency Devores to challenging to drive YG Haileys.

True and now his amp struggles continue...

 

[morricab]

Yes. KeithR, after an exhaustive year long search, went from high-efficiency Devores to challenging to drive YG Haileys.

THe Devores were not really high sensitivity though (90-91db or so I think), although they did allow a much wider range of amp usage without falling apart. Some here would say high sensitivity means 100db+ but I think in a normal room 95db+ is high sensitivity as it can then be typically used very well with a medium power SET (15 watts +). Above 100db you can start to get into your 2A3, maybe 45 based amps without too much struggle...again size and volume level listening dependent to some degree.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes. KeithR, after an exhaustive year long search, went from high-efficiency Devores to challenging to drive YG Haileys.

I would disagree this is indicative of anything.

Or going the other way, for example

 

[PeterA]

I would disagree this is indicative of anything.

Or going the other way, for example

For me it is about reaching different levels of natural sound from audio systems. I think there are many ways to get there, but natural sounding systems share things in common. They are balanced and they do not draw attention to themselves. The ultimate level may well be with a SET and horns but I am not sure. Certainly the source component matters too. Set up and ancillaries matter also.

The paradigm for me is whether one is on the natural sound path or on something else. There is lots of room in the hobby for different approaches and preferences. The important thing is what is right for the individual listener.

 

[bonzo75]

There are many ways to natural sound. But there are certain ways that are definitely not. Right for individual listener means nothing if he does not have much listening experience but has a lot of money

 

[microstrip]

(...) My SME armtube is not parallel with the headshell. Right now I think the arm is slightly up in back, but the headshell is slightly up in front. I suspect the bubble on the headshell will show it up in front. (...)

Very strange - in my SME 3012R's the arm tube is perfectly parallel with the headshells - and the SME drawings show it this way. May be your tonearm headshell connector is misplaced or damaged.