Sublime Sound

[PeterA]

My comments were mainly on the technical part, the subjective appreciation was a global one on what you and Al. M enthusiastically posted about the listening session. Sorry but for me "slightly veiled sound which restricted transparency" is not far different from my words in a subjective appreciation in a short post and, what matters for me is that it carried a large subjective change, IMHO implying that such exercise shows as almost mandatory in your system.

Do you re-calibrate your settings for cartridge use?

Ron "continues to be puzzled ", I exposed why I am puzzled - different ways of looking at the issue.

On the technical part, I think we agree. These are very small changes. On the subjective appreciation, well words have different meanings to different people, and their meanings are relative to one's experience. No need to say you are "sorry." It's all good, Fransisco.

To what settings are you referring in your question? If I change cartridges, say to my AirTight Supreme from my MSL, I do readjust all tonearm parameters. Regarding arm height with my different cartridges, I don't know. I have not listened to my other cartridge in a long time. If I switch it, I may find that the arm heights are all either too high or too low, probably by the same amount. If I find that for the first three LPs I play the arm has to go down a bit, I will assume it has to go down by the same amount for all of my records. I haven't checked that in a while. I'm getting ready to try the Supreme again and can report back. In the past, the Supreme was usually about 0.5mm lower relative to the MSL.

I don't know if Ron is still puzzled after David's response.

 

[bonzo75]

I think by recalibrate settings for cartridge use, he means as your cartridge gets run in due to more hours of usage, do you recalibrate for the wear

 

[PeterA]

I think by recalibrate settings for cartridge use, he means as your cartridge gets run in due to more hours of usage, do you recalibrate for the wear

I think I already commented on that topic when I wrote this in response to Fransisco in post #396:

"I don't know about stylus wear or suspension fatigue over time. I have noticed that I have adjusted SRA as the cartridge ages and also with different temperature and humidity conditions."

Bonzo, I should add that occasionally, if I listen to a record which I haven't heard for a long time, and something sounds a bit off, I usually fiddle with SRA a bit to see if it can sound better. Perhaps the setting changes because the cartridge has more time on it, or my hearing or sensitivities have changed, or any number of other reasons. It's just one of my hobbies, and I enjoy fiddling with the set up to optimize the sound to my taste. That's all. I am not suggesting that anyone else mess around with this. When you get your system set up, I will be curious to learn whether or not you find that any of this matters to your enjoyment of records.

 

[bonzo75]

Peter, when I was at Anamighty sound, a vinyl services shop in Paris (will write a report soon) they frequently adjusted VTA on my different records to influence sound positively. At another friend's recently we were trying out the Dalby and I realized it was not working on the 180g records. We did not adjust VTA then because we did not have time, but definitely the height was influencing the sound. However, I have not tried to do these experiments consistently across systems yet.

 

[microstrip]

Peter, when I was at Anamighty sound, a vinyl services shop in Paris (will write a report soon) they frequently adjusted VTA on my different records to influence sound positively. At another friend's recently we were trying out the Dalby and I realized it was not working on the 180g records. We did not adjust VTA then because we did not have time, but definitely the height was influencing the sound. However, I have not tried to do these experiments consistently across systems yet.

My feeling is that if we feel that VTA should be adjusted for each recording we should invest in a tonearm allowing to carry this operation with great accuracy in a snap, with great accuracy and having a scale. When I have owned the Triplanar tonearm, may be thirty years ago, I went through this enthusiasm - the dial indicator was great. But optimizing the VTA took a lot longer than listening to the LP, and I soon got tired of it.

 

[bonzo75]

My feeling is that if we feel that VTA should be adjusted for each recording we should invest in a tonearm allowing to carry this operation with great accuracy in a snap, with great accuracy and having a scale. When I have owned the Triplanar tonearm, may be thirty years ago, I went through this enthusiasm - the dial indicator was great. But optimizing the VTA took a lot longer than listening to the LP, and I soon got tired of it.

Yes possible. But triplanar is known for infinite adjustability so those who buy will be those sorts.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My feeling is that if we feel that VTA should be adjusted for each recording we should invest in a tonearm allowing to carry this operation with great accuracy in a snap, with great accuracy and having a scale. When I have owned the Triplanar tonearm, may be thirty years ago, I went through this enthusiasm - the dial indicator was great. But optimizing the VTA took a lot longer than listening to the LP, and I soon got tired of it.

you'd almost need to design your own tonearms to know what VTA/SRA adjustment protocol you prefer/feel is best. otherwise, how can you isolate one tonearm design aspect from from arm to arm as the arms vary in multiple ways?

I have a loose general feel for that from witnessing the Durand tonearm development, but nothing definitive enough to defend. through observation, the least mechanically compromised approach sounded best. and settling time after final choice of VTA/SRA typically for me brought more gains....hence I never went very far down the 'each side' VTA adjustment road.

but if we stick with one tone arm design only, then the relative merits of adjusting VTA/SRA are simply the time cost question. how much benefit is worth how much time? we all choose.....no wrong answer.

 

[PeterA]

My feeling is that if we feel that VTA should be adjusted for each recording we should invest in a tonearm allowing to carry this operation with great accuracy in a snap, with great accuracy and having a scale. When I have owned the Triplanar tonearm, may be thirty years ago, I went through this enthusiasm - the dial indicator was great. But optimizing the VTA took a lot longer than listening to the LP, and I soon got tired of it.

Well again Fransisco, I think this is up to the individual listener. As Mike says, there is no wrong answer. I'm surprised it took you so long to optimize VTA. My guests watch me do it in 30-60 seconds as I set it to a pre recorded setting based on a past setting that I found worked best. But again, it's up to every listener to decide for himself how far to take this. I don't hear much about the TriPlanar arm these days. It certainly was adjustable. My four friends who used to own them spent about 30-60 seconds to adjust arm height when they bothered to do it.

 

[marty]

I agree David, except that I too struggle with it and I do talk about it. Here is why:

What I struggle with is that as my experience increases, and my system continues to improve, I am beginning to realize that my 0.5mm increments are too large. These increments are a compromise because they are too large. Adjusting in increments of one playing card would give better results, but that would be a lot of work for someone who does this for each record, especially with an arm that is not designed for frequent and repeatable changes. I would like an arm which has an offset VTA tower, however, I suspect that most designs compromise rigidity for the sake of adjustability. The top Durand arms got rid of the offset tower of the lower models, I think for this very reason. The SAT, and perhaps a few other arms, might be exceptions. The SAT does not have an offset tower and its markings and clamping/raising mechanism design look like they may be very effective.

I am conflating David's point about correct VTA/SRA setting with my point about frequent adjustments. I think we both agree that correct/proper/preferable arm height is the goal. We differ in whether or not this is important on a per record basis.

David's "playing card" template method is quite ingenuous. In fact, it probably yields slightly better precision than 0.5mm as a typical playing card (depending on the backing used) is about 0.3mm thick. I use a micrometer that will delineate about 0.25mm w good precision. But even so, I agree with Peter that greater refinement is typically required, which is best done by ear.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you Ron.

I don't really want to get into the "speed" issue with my XP25 here as we have extensively discussed this within our Boston group. I will say that the issue came up when a member of our group noticed that his digital, in his system, sounded faster on a number of recordings through his digital source than they did through his analog source. He too has the XP25 and suspected that the phono stage was the culprit. He asked me and Al to report back about the "speed" in my system as heard through my XP25. We found no issue in my system with respect to the "speed" of the XP25. Of course, not every system is the same.

Regarding arm height adjustments affecting the overall sonic performance of one's vinyl playback, all I can say is that anyone to whom I demonstrate this in my system hears the difference. They even hear it in their systems when I have offered to adjust their arm height. And they notice it when they are setting up their own vinyl front ends. Even though people hear the difference that slight adjustments to arm height can make, that does not mean that they are willing to spend the time to make the adjustments for each of their records. This topic is discussed a bit more on AudioNirvana where a few members do adjust for individual records. There are a couple of active threads discussing it now. (see this: https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/...858-what-is-the-most-effective-way-to-set-sra). One thing that people listen for is the relationship between fundamentals and their harmonics. This relationship effects the perception of transparency, speed, and all sorts of other sonic attributes, IME.

You can refer back to David fine tuning Tang's arm/cartridge. He went back and forth many times to get the VTA and VTF set up to his satisfaction. I assume it was for the specific records he was using for his set up procedure. I just happen to do it for each record because I hear a difference and it matters to me. I want to be clear that I am not suggesting everyone do this. I will demonstrate this process to you when you come to visit and then you can assess for yourself if it "elevates the sound from 'slightly veiled' to 'more open and clear'." That will be fun.

I do not have a theory as to why other vinyl guys don't discuss this so much. Perhaps it is too boring a topic. Perhaps many people assume that once the arm/cartridge is properly set up, the job is done. Jim Smith told me that he never once entered a client's listening room and heard a fully optimized vinyl front end. I have no idea why that is. However, I will say that people do care about this because some are buying set up tools to try to squeeze more performance from their vinyl. Tang is discussing the fine tuning of his arm/cartridges based on the process that he learned from David. It seems to matter to him, though I don't know if he adjusts for different records. Christian discussed briefly that he adjusts when changing his various cartridges. They are both using David's "card" trick to repeat previous settings, so on some level it must matter. David told me that he has one setting for the majority of standard vinyl, and that he only adjusts arm height for 180-200 gram pressings. I think it does matter to people and they do hear the differences, they just don't seem to discuss the topic much.

Here is a question: if it did not matter so much, why are there many new arm designs (Axiom, Durand, Graham, VPI, Kuzma, etc) which make it very easy to adjust, and often repeat, arm height? If it were simply a matter of setting it up once, I suspect that these arms would have much more basic mechanisms for adjustments, and not the elaborate off set towers for easy and repeatable VTA.

Thank you, Peter. I think the fact that contemporary tonearms have easily adjustable VTA is probative of the importance of being able to adjust VTA for different records.

After this very intelligible discussion over the last few pages I am less puzzled. But I do not want to adjust the VTA for every record.

I would be amenable to two adjustment settings: 1) average standard LP setting, and 2) 180g/200g LP setting.

 

[ddk]

Thank you, Peter. I think the fact that contemporary tonearms have easily adjustable VTA is probative of the importance of being able to adjust VTA for different records.

After this very intelligible discussion over the last few pages I am less puzzled. But I do not want to adjust the VTA for every record.

I would be amenable to two adjustment settings: 1) average standard LP setting, and 2) 180g/200g LP setting.

You don't need to adjust for each record if you set your VTA correctly the first time. You can see that with Steve, Chris & Tang whom you know, do it right, do it once!

david

 

[PeterA]

David's "playing card" template method is quite ingenuous. In fact, it probably yields slightly better precision than 0.5mm as a typical playing card (depending on the backing used) is about 0.3mm thick. I use a micrometer that will delineate about 0.25mm w good precision. But even so, I agree with Peter that greater refinement is typically required, which is best done by ear.

Marty, I am thinking of buying a pack of those small Post-It-Notes. I can just peel off the right number of sheets to correspond with my mm arm height settings and then use each stack as a shim for adjusting arm height. It might work, it would be repeatable, increments would be very small, and it would be a cheap solution. I do think a metal shim would be more durable and less flexible, so it would probably be quicker and more reliable than a stacked paper solution, but I have not been able to source the proper sized metal shims.

 

[awsmone]

Interesting idea Peter the post it packet

Not an issue on two of my TT as have triplanars on them

But the PSx9 is not vernier but still has a scale, actually lovely system because of ease of use, but not fine adjustment mechanism

To just add my two cents, the problem with vinyl playback is everything influences the sound

I have recently gone thru both triplanars and reoptimised them

My system has reached the point where all these things can be heard

i tend to , like many , optimised it for a standard record and change/ reoptimise when something is different thickness, luckly with the three TT, it’s possible to go back to a starting position which is a big help

 

[Tango]

Marty, I am thinking of buying a pack of those small Post-It-Notes. I can just peel off the right number of sheets to correspond with my mm arm height settings and then use each stack as a shim for adjusting arm height.

The Post-It-Notes is too thin Peter.

Tang

 

[PeterA]

The Post-It-Notes is too thin Peter.

Tang

Too thin for what Tang? I don't understand. Every five or so post it notes equals one of your playing cards. So I just remove them 4, 5, or 6 at a time. Whatever the increment is where I can hear an audible difference in performance. My concern is that paper is too flimsy and will not act as a stiff enough shim, but I'll try it and see. My current system works well enough. I could also cut up a bunch of playing cards. We'll see.

 

[microstrip]

Marty, I am thinking of buying a pack of those small Post-It-Notes. I can just peel off the right number of sheets to correspond with my mm arm height settings and then use each stack as a shim for adjusting arm height. It might work, it would be repeatable, increments would be very small, and it would be a cheap solution. I do think a metal shim would be more durable and less flexible, so it would probably be quicker and more reliable than a stacked paper solution, but I have not been able to source the proper sized metal shims.

As far as I remember I adjusted the VTA in the SME V with a movable long VTA screw - it should not be very difficult to manufacture a simple tool fitted with a proper scale or dial to carry this operation.

 

[PeterA]

As far as I remember I adjusted the VTA in the SME V with a movable long VTA screw - it should not be very difficult to manufacture a simple tool fitted with a proper scale or dial to carry this operation.

Yes, my arm has the same long VTA screw. David might be able to confirm this, but I think that SME designed the newer series arms presuming that the industry would adopt some standards. That is why there are no slots on the headshell, for example. They thought that all cartridge manufactures would use the same mounting hole to stylus tip dimension of 9.5mm. I also think that SME thought that arm height was a once and done set up procedure based on a preferred SRA angle for one's LPs. And at the time, most LPs were within a narrow thickness range. If all records were roughly the same thickness, and cutting head angles were all some standard degree, then one could set and forget the arm height once set during the initial procedure.

Well, since then, people have been manufacturing all sorts of LPs, thicker than the old ones, pressed on only one side, etc. And I believe cartridge manufacturers did not adopt a standard mounting hole to tip distance or cantilever angle. As a result newer arms were designed to be more easily adjustable, especially in height.

The SME VTA screws works well enough as a guide, but I use my fingers to raise and lower the arm. The problem in my view is that this VTA screw guide is offset from the main arm pillar, so if the screw is used to raise the arm by turning it, then the arm post has a tendency to tilt because of the play between the clamp and post, shifting the arm post out of plumb, or true vertical. That is why ARA personally used a spirit level on the headshell to make sure it is horizontal before clamping the arm pillar down. I do the same.

I do not like this design because of the offset screw. Offset VTA towers work better because the entire mechanism is threaded and goes up and down vertically. But, the mechanism is less rigid. I don't know how the SAT arms overcome this challenge because their arm height screw mechanism is also offset from the center of the arm post, like the SME screw. Perhaps there is less play or the clamping mechanism sets the post to plumb when tightened.

I am having a hard time imagining the simple tool that you are suggesting. Could you describe it in some more detail? Where would it be located? Would it be used to raise and lower the arm directly or simply to measure the height off the arm board? etc.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, my arm has the same long VTA screw. David might be able to confirm this, but I think that SME designed the newer series arms presuming that the industry would adopt some standards. That is why there are no slots on the headshell, for example. They thought that all cartridge manufactures would use the same mounting hole to stylus tip dimension of 9.5mm. I also think that SME thought that arm height was a once and done set up procedure based on a preferred SRA angle for one's LPs. And at the time, most LPs were within a narrow thickness range. If all records were roughly the same thickness, and cutting head angles were all some standard degree, then one could set and forget the arm height once set during the initial procedure.

Well, since then, people have been manufacturing all sorts of LPs, thicker than the old ones, pressed on only one side, etc. And I believe cartridge manufacturers did not adopt a standard mounting hole to tip distance or cantilever angle. As a result newer arms were designed to be more easily adjustable, especially in height.

The SME VTA screws works well enough as a guide, but I use my fingers to raise and lower the arm. The problem in my view is that this VTA screw guide is offset from the main arm pillar, so if the screw is used to raise the arm by turning it, then the arm post has a tendency to tilt because of the play between the clamp and post, shifting the arm post out of plumb, or true vertical. That is why ARA personally used a spirit level on the headshell to make sure it is horizontal before clamping the arm pillar down. I do the same.

I do not like this design because of the offset screw. Offset VTA towers work better because the entire mechanism is threaded and goes up and down vertically. But, the mechanism is less rigid. I don't know how the SAT arms overcome this challenge because their arm height screw mechanism is also offset from the center of the arm post, like the SME screw. Perhaps there is less play or the clamping mechanism sets the post to plumb when tightened.

I am having a hard time imagining the simple tool that you are suggesting. Could you describe it in some more detail? Where would it be located? Would it be used to raise and lower the arm directly or simply to measure the height off the arm board? etc.

I never used the screw to raise or lower the arm directly, just to move it gently taking most of the weight with the other hand. The most important point is that the VTA tools prevents abrupt falls, that are not good to tonearm bearings.

Although I am working from memory, I would look for a long threaded shaft of the same pitch as the VTA adjuster and look for one tube of glass that could move free but close along the threaded shaft and would draw a scale in the glass tube. Then all we have to do is painting a clear separation line between two zones of the threaded shaft to use as an indicator line.

 

[PeterA]

Fransisco, my arm can not fall because there are springs in the clamping mechanism which prevent it from falling. The VTA screw is a guide. One turn represents 1.0mm of arm height. I start with the arm too high, turn the VTA screw the right amount, lower the arm until the VTA screw makes contact with the arm board, confirm proper height with the scale, and then lock the clamps. It is a very simple process. I'll see if I can figure out how to lower the arm while it remains level with some larger flat shim like object acting as a stop. If I can and it improves the procedure, I'll report back.

I appreciate your suggestions.

 

[ddk]

Yes, my arm has the same long VTA screw. David might be able to confirm this, but I think that SME designed the newer series arms presuming that the industry would adopt some standards. That is why there are no slots on the headshell, for example. They thought that all cartridge manufactures would use the same mounting hole to stylus tip dimension of 9.5mm. I also think that SME thought that arm height was a once and done set up procedure based on a preferred SRA angle for one's LPs. And at the time, most LPs were within a narrow thickness range. If all records were roughly the same thickness, and cutting head angles were all some standard degree, then one could set and forget the arm height once set during the initial procedure.

Well, since then, people have been manufacturing all sorts of LPs, thicker than the old ones, pressed on only one side, etc. And I believe cartridge manufacturers did not adopt a standard mounting hole to tip distance or cantilever angle. As a result newer arms were designed to be more easily adjustable, especially in height.

The SME VTA screws works well enough as a guide, but I use my fingers to raise and lower the arm. The problem in my view is that this VTA screw guide is offset from the main arm pillar, so if the screw is used to raise the arm by turning it, then the arm post has a tendency to tilt because of the play between the clamp and post, shifting the arm post out of plumb, or true vertical. That is why ARA personally used a spirit level on the headshell to make sure it is horizontal before clamping the arm pillar down. I do the same.

I do not like this design because of the offset screw. Offset VTA towers work better because the entire mechanism is threaded and goes up and down vertically. But, the mechanism is less rigid. I don't know how the SAT arms overcome this challenge because their arm height screw mechanism is also offset from the center of the arm post, like the SME screw. Perhaps there is less play or the clamping mechanism sets the post to plumb when tightened.

I am having a hard time imagining the simple tool that you are suggesting. Could you describe it in some more detail? Where would it be located? Would it be used to raise and lower the arm directly or simply to measure the height off the arm board? etc.

SME have their sled for easy alignment don't need and don't want slotted headshells specially in V series that come with fixed ones. Changing cartridges in a fixed headshell is a gigantic PIA and the pins can come off or become to loose or have other issues with it, the IV & V arms were designed for one cartridge at a time. Frankly in more than 30 years of this I never heard of anyone else adjusting VTA for each record, I don't even see how you do it.

david