Sublime Sound

[PeterA]

SME have their sled for easy alignment don't need and don't want slotted headshells specially in V series that come with fixed ones. Changing cartridges in a fixed headshell is a gigantic PIA and the pins can come off or become to loose or have other issues with it, the IV & V arms were designed for one cartridge at a time. Frankly in more than 30 years of this I never heard of anyone else adjusting VTA for each record, I don't even see how you do it.

david

No worries, David. There are guys out there who do do it, and some have discussed it on AudioNirvana.org. There are also plenty of arms specifically designed to accommodate the practice. Ron will soon watch how I do it, and he can report back as to its difficulty and inconvenience if he wants. I do it because I watched a guy on Audiogon named DougDeacon do it and I heard the results. Then I saw a local guy up here do it, and a local dealer for Durand tonearms do it.

There are lots of ways to enjoy the hobby. I have one turntable and one tonearm. Other guys have multiple copies of tables, arms, and cartridges. It's all good.

I am curious as to how pins can come off or become loose in an arm with a fixed headshell and not in an arm with a removable headshell. I've never had that problem in my SME 309, SME V, or SME V-12 arms over many years.

 

[ddk]

No worries, David. There are guys out there who do do it, and some have discussed it on AudioNirvana.org. There are also plenty of arms specifically designed to accommodate the practice. Ron will soon watch how I do it, and he can report back as to its difficulty and inconvenience if he wants. I do it because I watched a guy on Audiogon named DougDeacon do it and I heard the results. Then I saw a local guy up here do it, and a local dealer for Durand tonearms do it.

There are lots of ways to enjoy the hobby. I have one turntable and one tonearm. Other guys have multiple copies of tables, arms, and cartridges. It's all good.

I am curious as to how pins can come off or become loose in an arm with a fixed headshell and not in an arm with a removable headshell. I've never had that problem in my SME 309, SME V, or SME V-12 arms over many years.

I'm sure changing the VTA makes a difference in sound so what I'm wondering about is your starting point that you find the need to go through this process. You should look at a Graham if this is your thing, it's a very good sounding tonearm and has on the fly VTA adjustment dial and a built in level.

With a removable headshell you tend to buy several of them and mount one or two cartridges in there not having to swap them in out. Some brands have thicker pins enlarging the connectors in the headshell but they can be easily swapped out, you can't do that when the wire is running from the headshell down the arm. Also the solder joints are very small and fragile with the skinny headshell wires and connectors can break off when pulling them off or putting them on cartridges.

david

 

[PeterA]

David, my starting point is leveling the arm. Then I listen and adjust, back and forth, until I find a height that I like. I then make a note of that setting, and return to it when I listen to that LP again. Sometimes it takes a bit of back and forth until I think it sounds right. The SME V-12 arm, IMO, reaches a fair compromise between adjustability, and rigidity. It looks like SAT is even better. I looked into the Graham arms and spoke to Bob a few times. I am not interested in that arm and I would not buy an arm simply for ease of adjustability. I also don't think that the level is accurate enough for precise repeatability, because it is located near the pivot so a tiny angle there is accentuated 12" away at the cartridge.

I now understand your point about removable headshells. You basically mount the cartridge once and never remove it, so there is less wear and tear on the connectors. For your information, the cartridge leads are replaceable in the SME V arm and terminate at the beginning of the arm tube. They are not continuous, so probably don't sound as good as wires from cartridge to phono input, but they are replaceable if they should break. They are roughly 1.5" long.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Guys,

This is what you need for VTA

The Vyger allows one extremely fine tuning of VTA and you can then move it around (if you wanted per LP) using the wheel that allow minuscule adjustment if needed but importantly a read out on the gauge as a reference.

 

[Tango]

Hi Guys,

This is what you need for VTA

The Vyger allows one extremely fine tuning of VTA and you can then move it around (if you wanted per LP) using the wheel that allow minuscule adjustment if needed but importantly a read out on the gauge as a reference.

View attachment 43786

View attachment 43787

Can you brew me a double shot of Columbia please Bill .

Tang

 

[ddk]

David, my starting point is leveling the arm. Then I listen and adjust, back and forth, until I find a height that I like. I then make a note of that setting, and return to it when I listen to that LP again. Sometimes it takes a bit of back and forth until I think it sounds right.

That's what I meant with you not having a baseline VTA for a cartridge, you go from LP to LP depending on what sounds good to you at the time, what you're wrote doesn't even have to do with LPs of certain thickness but rather music type and recording to recording. Probably one thing for female vocal based on what you think it should sound, another for piano and another for orchestral and on and on tailoring to the record. It's very different than setting the VTA/SRA of a cartridge to a known set of parameters of at least 3 precisely. Reason why you have to change up & down all the time is because you never got done right to begin with.

david

 

[Tango]

Too thin for what Tang? I don't understand. Every five or so post it notes equals one of your playing cards. So I just remove them 4, 5, or 6 at a time. Whatever the increment is where I can hear an audible difference in performance. My concern is that paper is too flimsy and will not act as a stiff enough shim, but I'll try it and see. My current system works well enough. I could also cut up a bunch of playing cards. We'll see.

I was only suggesting a more practical and easier life for you Peter. To be honest difference of three cards let me hear difference for sure. But one playing card still gives me ambiguous in hearing, let alone one Post-It. It would be interesting to see steps count on your iPhone watch for one listening session of yours .

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[PeterA]

That's what I meant with you not having a baseline VTA for a cartridge, you go from LP to LP depending on what sounds good to you at the time, what you're wrote doesn't even have to do with LPs of certain thickness but rather music type and recording to recording. Probably one thing for female vocal based on what you think it should sound, another for piano and another for orchestral and on and on tailoring to the record. It's very different than setting the VTA/SRA of a cartridge to a known set of parameters of at least 3 precisely. Reason why you have to change up & down all the time is because you never got done right to begin with.

david

David, I tried your method and moved on. The parameters change depending on record thickness and cutting angle. When these change, SRA, VTA, overhang and VTF all change too. Setting it once and leaving it alone is a compromise which many think is just fine. I used to think that too.

My arm was set up properly by my dealer with the LP he uses for all of his clients. He taught me what to listen for as he did it, probably just like what you taught Tang. The thing is, that when I played another record of the same or different type of music, the setting was not quite right because either the LP was of a different thickness, or the original cutting angle was different between these records. Whatever the reason, he told me, and I have experienced from many other people, that there is NO one setting that works for all records. The dealer told me it is a compromise. Others told me it is a compromise. They told me why and demonstrated this to me. I have demonstrated it to others. I learned from them and my own experiments. You are free to think whatever you want.

I think it is best for you and me to agree to disagree. You have your methods which work for you and your arm. I do things differently. You are free to think your method is superior. It does not matter to me at all.

 

[PeterA]

I was only suggesting a more practical and easier life for you Peter. To be honest difference of three cards let me hear difference for sure. But one playing card still gives me ambiguous in hearing, let alone one Post-It. It would be interesting to see steps count on your iPhone watch for one listening session of yours .

Kind regards,
Tang

Very funny, Tang. No one ever suggested adjusting arm height using one thin piece of paper.

 

[ddk]

David, I tried your method and moved on. The parameters change depending on record thickness and cutting angle. When these change, SRA, VTA, overhang and VTF all change too. Setting it once and leaving it alone is a compromise which many think is just fine. I used to think that too.

My arm was set up properly by my dealer with the LP he uses for all of his clients. He taught me what to listen for as he did it, probably just like what you taught Tang. The thing is, that when I played another record of the same or different type of music, the setting was not quite right because either the LP was of a different thickness, or the original cutting angle was different between these records. Whatever the reason, he told me, and I have experienced from many other people, that there is NO one setting that works for all records. The dealer told me it is a compromise. Others told me it is a compromise. They told me why and demonstrated this to me. I have demonstrated it to others. I learned from them and my own experiments. You are free to think whatever you want.

I think it is best for you and me to agree to disagree. You have your methods which work for you and your arm. I do things differently. You are free to think your method is superior. It does not matter to me at all.

There's nothing to agree or disagree here nor am I trying to change the way you like to do things I was just trying to understand what's going on. Basically you go from one record to another readjusting the tonearm height to suit your taste and then eyeballing it with a ruler and noting it down until the next time you get to it. This has nothing to do with cutting angle, thickness or any of the stuff you mention, you're not measuring any of it just tweaking to taste which is fine.

david

 

[awsmone]

There's nothing to agree or disagree here nor am I trying to change the way you like to do things I was just trying to understand what's going on. Basically you go from one record to another readjusting the tonearm height to suit your taste and then eyeballing it with a ruler and noting it down until the next time you get to it. This has nothing to do with cutting angle, thickness or any of the stuff you mention, you're not measuring any of it just tweaking to taste which is fine.

david

Clearly a fundamental disagreement on principle, which is fine

However, I must agree with David on this
I did do it as Peter suggests
Sometimes it worked other times it involved a lot of back and forth

Recently I set my arms up as neutral on a standard record, and note that setting

I can then move up or down dependent

As I have multiple headshells and carts I note which like neutral which tail down etc
Also if different labels what the usual preference is

Thus I can always go back to neutral, and then say oh this is a Melodia probably the best adjustment will be x and go to x
Or I am running this cartridge it likes to be x from neutral, etc

This makes results and fine tuning much easier

My analog system has improved greatly since I made this change in approach

It has allowed me to then move on to clamp tension and support changes and maximise those as well

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .Ron will soon watch how I do it, and he can report back as to its difficulty and inconvenience if he wants. . . .

I smell frog legs and exotic incense, and I suspect amethyst crystals if I look closely! Sourcery I say, and maybe witchcraft!

I am sure this will be a trick! Just because you can do this easily does not mean everyone can!

I watched JeffT slip off one cartridge and, with a flick of a tiny tool and a touch of a tracking force gauge and a push of a counter-weight, slip on another cartridge in about a minute. it looked like black magic to me.

Now Tang says this black art can be learned and practiced?

* * *

David's point about the procedure being one of "tweaking to taste" sounds plausible to me. What say you, Peter?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Can you brew me a double shot of Columbia please Bill .

Tang

Lol - yeah. It looks more like a distillery - fancy a mixa with your vodka?

 

[PeterA]

Clearly a fundamental disagreement on principle, which is fine

However, I must agree with David on this
I did do it as Peter suggests
Sometimes it worked other times it involved a lot of back and forth

Recently I set my arms up as neutral on a standard record, and note that setting

I can then move up or down dependent

As I have multiple headshells and carts I note which like neutral which tail down etc
Also if different labels what the usual preference is

Thus I can always go back to neutral, and then say oh this is a Melodia probably the best adjustment will be x and go to x
Or I am running this cartridge it likes to be x from neutral, etc

This makes results and fine tuning much easier

My analog system has improved greatly since I made this change in approach

It has allowed me to then move on to clamp tension and support changes and maximise those as well

This is basically what I do too, awsmone. I have a base setting which is my compromise/average height setting for my typical LP, as set up using my protractor and measuring devices and confirmed by listening. In case anyone cares, this is a setting of 17.5mm using my scale on my tonearm. That is the base and it sounds great for about 30% of my LPs.

I use my MINT Protractor to set overhang precisely with the VTF set at 2.0 grams which is the neutral point according to my cartridge manufacturer. The arm is raised to account for the difference in thickness between the MINT glass and the typical LP. I set these parameters - overhang, VTF, VTA, anti skate, zenith, - very precisely with measurements. Then I remove the MINT glass, lower the arm maintaining the same angle because the MINT glass is 1.5mm thicker than a typical 150gram LP. Then I listen. I adjust VTA, VTF anti skate while listening to three reference LPs. I then confirm overhang again. This process is for one particular cartridge. Once I have everything set, this becomes my baseline. And about 30% of my collection sounds great at this setting. I can leave it alone and be done with it. I presume this is what most people do. This is what my dealer did in my system.

I then learned that for other records, very slight adjustments in arm height improve the sound of those particular records. You can say that I am adjusting to "taste" but isn't that what one does with measurements and listening anyway to set his baseline setting? The total range in arm height adjustments I make is 3.0mm which is about a 0.33 degree change in SRA. That covers my entire collection of LPs. I have made very careful measurements about how much overhang and VTF changes with this 1/3 degree of SRA. Some people may not even hear a difference. If that is the case, then so what, my adjustments don't make the sound worse for those listeners. The change in overhang resulting from this 0.33 degree in SRA is not visible to the naked eye, only slightly through magnification with a 10X loupe. The stylus tip moves from the outside of the hair width line inscribed on the MINT arc protractor to the inside of the line, but there is never a visible gap between the line and the stylus tip. I would argue it is not audible. The VTF is so tiny that even David said it was not audible, something like 0.06 gram throughout the entire range. I posted the measurement data up thread.

Last night I listened to Bach's cello suites. All six sides. I never touched the arm height once, so Tang need not worry about the "steps taken during my listening session." I got up from my sofa every 20 minutes or so to flip the records and perhaps clean the stylus after a couple sides. Other evenings I listen to a batch of LPs with perhaps one or two different arm height listings, so I spend perhaps three minutes total resetting the arm.

No black magic here Ron. No voodoo. You can have David set up your rig once and never touch it again, and be happy I'm sure. Tang, on the other hand, is altering David's set up and is enjoying his fine tuning. He actually posted that he improved on David's set up and added a smiley facey thingy for good measure. EDIT: see here: "When I lowered the tracking force of AtlasSL, I had to readjust the vta to be rewarded with even better sound than when David set up for me....hehe (smiley face)"

Whether it makes a difference or not is up to the listener. I get that people don't want to go to the trouble. David just wrote that a 0.5mm change in arm height can make a significant difference or something like that. EDIT: from David: "Setting the VTA/SRA correctly has significant impact on the sound specially when dealing with multiple arms & cartridges. One reason that you don't hear people talking about it is that they're struggling with it, it's not trivial +/- 0.5mm can be crucial." That is 1/20th a degree in SRA for a 12" arm. I agree with him. He can hear that when setting up the cartridge. So can I. We know that there is variance of at least 1/20th of a degree with cutting head angles. They varied between 91-94 degrees according to some accounts I have read. Fremer wrote that his 92 degrees is the best compromise setting which would cover most records in people's collections. Records vary in thickness my at least 1mm. All of this means that parameters change when playing different LPs. Some people just choose not to account for those differences by making subsequent adjustments once the original set up is complete. That is fine.

To answer Ron's question, "What say you, Peter?", I suppose I am "tweaking to taste" based on what I hear from variances in the physical characteristics of different records. Everyone who listens during cartridge set up is "tweaking to taste". Otherwise, they would just use the protractor, the weight scale, set the arm level, and be done. No, rather they continue to fine tune arm height adjusting SRA, VTF, and anti skate by ear for the preferred sound. Everyone has his own methods or relies on experts like David to do the work for them. My own SME dealer/ set up guy kept asking me, what do you think, when he was adjusting the arm height during his set up procedure. With my lack of experience at the time, I told him to just set it up and I would learn from him. Can we now end the hearing, so I can go back to work and listening to records?

EDIT: I would like to add one more point in response to David's question about "a starting point". When initially setting up a cartridge in my tonearm, I start with alignment according to my MINT protractor. This was custom made for my specific cartridge and tonearm based on precise dimensions. This arc protractor relies on a very precise stylus to pivot distance, so I first set my arm to be perfectly level with VTF set at the cartridge manufacturer's specified "center" point. For my cartridge it is 2.0g. A tonearm's pivot point is fixed in the horizontal plane, but it moves in the vertical plane when the arm height is adjusted. Therefore, I want the shortest distance between the pivot point (in 3 dimensions) and the stylus point for the most accurate pivot to stylus distance. This is effective length and the arm must be level for this dimension to be accurate. This is what the MINT arc protractor is based on.

So to answer David's question as precisely as I can, the starting point for my arm, prior to any listening, is a very precise position based on five things: anti skate set to zero, a very accurate pivot to stylus distance based on effective length, the center point (VTF) for the given cartridge coils and magnets based on manufacturer's specifications, and a perfectly level tonearm relative to the position of the stylus as it rests on the given glass thickness of my MINT protractor. Finally, I adjust zenith angle by rotating the cartridge slightly in the headshell until the cantilever and parallel lines at the null points inscribed on the MINT protractor line up. These steps together assure accurate alignment. That is my starting point and based on the tonearm being level.

Having established this alignment, I then adjust arm height down by a distance equal to the difference between the thickness of the glass protractor and the thickness of a typical/average record (150g) in my collection. I think this is 1.5mm, but I would have to check my notes. Now I place this reference LP on the table and listen. Remember, the arm is still level at this point. I then make very fine adjustments by ear to arm height (SRA/VTA), VTF, and antiskate. I did reconfirm overhang and alignment a couple of times after months of listening and adjusting arm height and according to the MINT arc protractor, it was still spot on.

After these minor adjustments by ear, I reach a setting which I call my "reference setting" which is the preferred set up for a typical record in my collection. The arm height at this reference setting is 17.5mm according to the scale that I have devised by measuring between the arm board and bottom of the arm locking mechanism. The various settings that I have found sound good for my collection range between 16mm and 19mm. That is only 1.5mm up or down from this reference setting of 17.5mm. 1.5mm represents a change in SRA of only 3/10th of one degree. These differences are clearly audible. David says 0.5mm in arm height "can be crucial". I agree, and that is why I make the adjustments.

I hope this answers the question about a "starting point".

 

[ack]

In the spirit of 'everything matters', well, consequently everything makes a difference too. Whether what Peter does is purely adjusting SRA/VTA and/or the result of other parameters changing (which is where I come from, no matter what the arm), and however unscientific his approach may be, then: a) adjusting arm height surely affects the angles, even if by a fraction; b) yes, he adjusts for the sound he prefers, and all the power to him; c) the whole LP playback system is such a tweaky source that USER adjustments are necessary and mandatory to start with, so why not continue on with every LP - contrast with digital, for example; d) is anyone else really more scientific in their approach than him??? If so, prove it.

 

[PeterA]

In the spirit of 'everything matters', well, consequently everything makes a difference too. Whether what Peter does is purely adjusting SRA/VTA and/or the result of other parameters changing (which is where I come from, no matter what the arm), and however unscientific his approach may be, then: a) adjusting arm height surely affects the angles, even if by a fraction; b) yes, he adjusts for the sound he prefers, and all the power to him; c) the whole LP playback system is such a tweaky source that USER adjustments are necessary and mandatory to start with, so why not continue on with every LP - contrast with digital, for example; d) is anyone else really more scientific in their approach than him??? If so, prove it.

Ack, I agree with you that other parameters change with changes in arm height. However, I made a study of by how much they change, and I found it was by tiny amounts. I measured VTF changes for five different arm heights in 0.5mm increments. This lead to a discussion about neutrally balanced arms. I also looked at the overhang, or relationship between my stylus tip and the arc line on my MINT protractor during these height changes. That too was not visible to the naked eye, only under X10 magnification. So, yes, parameters change, but which contribute most to the overall change in sound, is inconclusive. I believe it is arm height resulting in SRA changes of as much as 3/10th, but that is only based on my careful measurements and listing. Others may have a different opinion.

For reference if anyone is interested, here is a link to a thread I started on this very topic: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25143-My-thoughts-on-cartridge-arm-set-up. If anyone disagrees with my measurements or would like to share his opinion about how to better approach this subject, could I ask you to please go to that thread to discuss cartridge set up methods. I would like this system thread to be primarily about changes I make to the system, and the various listening impressions people have who hear my system. It was Al M.'s sharing of his recent listening impressions after all that started this whole discussion about adjusting arm height.

Thank you.

 

[MadFloyd]

In the spirit of 'everything matters', well, consequently everything makes a difference too. Whether what Peter does is purely adjusting SRA/VTA and/or the result of other parameters changing (which is where I come from, no matter what the arm), and however unscientific his approach may be, then: a) adjusting arm height surely affects the angles, even if by a fraction; b) yes, he adjusts for the sound he prefers, and all the power to him; c) the whole LP playback system is such a tweaky source that USER adjustments are necessary and mandatory to start with, so why not continue on with every LP - contrast with digital, for example; d) is anyone else really more scientific in their approach than him??? If so, prove it.

+1

 

[microstrip]

(...) To answer Ron's question, "What say you, Peter?", I suppose I am "tweaking to taste" based on what I hear from variances in the physical characteristics of different records. Everyone who listens during cartridge set up is "tweaking to taste". Otherwise, they would just use the protractor, the weight scale, set the arm level, and be done. No, rather they continue to fine tune arm height adjusting SRA, VTF, and anti skate by ear for the preferred sound. Everyone has his own methods or relies on experts like David to do the work for them. My own SME dealer/ set up guy kept asking me, what do you think, when he was adjusting the arm height during his set up procedure. With my lack of experience at the time, I told him to just set it up and I would learn from him. Can we now end the hearing, so I can go back to work and listening to records?

Peter,

You are focusing on the narrative and forgetting about the main essence of the debate. If we were to accept in an absolute way your findings concerning post #385 https://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12853-Sublime-Sound&p=531287&viewfull=1#post531287, it would imply that probably our vinyl listening would be substandard.

What I criticize mainly is the assumption that your variable VTA adjustments are correlated to the cutting angle of the LP cutter. The variations I have found reported in the literature are much higher than the values you are using, so I am compelled to think you adjust to your preference - and I congratulate you on that.

BTW, unfortunately this debate is heavily contaminated by Michael Freming articles and most post just echo his words and findings. There were many articles debating SRA before Fremer, can I add an interesting one (IMHO) to the list? http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~yosh/vta.htm

Please note that some people consider that each stylus should be adjusted to an optimal fixed angle relative to plane of the spinning disk - it is the movement that defines this angle, not the grove modulations. I am not prepared to debate this issue, but it is what I use in practice.

Thanks for providing the space to a never ending but interesting debate.

 

[ddk]

...unfortunately this debate is heavily contaminated by Michael Freming articles and most post just echo his words and findings. There were many articles debating SRA before Fremer, can I add an interesting one (IMHO) to the list? http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~yosh/vta.htm

...each stylus should be adjusted to an optimal fixed angle relative to plane of the spinning disk - it is the movement that defines this angle, not the grove modulations.

Exactly!

david

 

[ack]

Ack, I agree with you that other parameters change with changes in arm height. However, I made a study of by how much they change, and I found it was by tiny amounts.

For reference if anyone is interested, here is a link to a thread I started on this very topic: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25143-My-thoughts-on-cartridge-arm-set-up.

Yeah I never responded to your thread, because back then (or ever since) you had not answered my challenge: how small a change anywhere is acceptable to you. Herein, we are talking about minuscule angle changes and you seem to indicate they are important; back in the other thread, what are you willing to accept in terms of changes to other parameters? You don't have to answer this here. What if I were to point out that we'd probably all go crazy if our turntable speed was 0.1% or even 0.05% off, and can only render a 1kHz tone as 1001 or 1000.5 Hz. Just something to think about: what is really negligible in the LP analog world.