Sublime Sound

[Tango]

I asked Peter to play Carole King’s Tapestry album. I know this album extremely well, and I have heard it many, many dozens of times.

When Peter first started playing it Carole’s voice sounded thin and not convincingly present — a bit like we were listening to the recording on an old transistor radio (although that way overstates the point I am trying to convey). Overall the sound of the recording was thin and cool-ish. Tapestry is not a well-recorded album, so it doesn’t not sound great in the best of circumstances, but I knew it was not supposed to sound like what we were hearing.

After Peter adjusted the VTA the tonality of Carole’s voice became the sound to which I am accustomed, and her voice no longer sounded thin and reedy. There was a greater openness overall to the sound. The entire tonal balance of the recording shifted slightly warmer, and sounded like what I am used to from this album.

You put Tapestry on the first try and it sounded thin? Did Peter intentionally mess with his vta to prove the point before you put this record on? Or was the record you just played earlier had totally different thickness to the Tapestry and Peter adjusted his vta specifically to that record. Yesterday I was just telling Kedar that I could make my tt sound toward analytical by adjusting vta. This would involve considerable height margin of adjustment. Not one or two cards of finetuning. Just curious how many grams the Tapestry and how mang grams the record before it.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[microstrip]

BREAKING NEWS: PETER IS CORRECT THAT SMALL ADJUSTMENTS IN TONEARM HEIGHT (VTA) CAN RESULT IN SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN SOUND QUALITY! (...)

Ron,

These are not breaking news - most people here will tell us that 1.5mm in VTA is very significant - some even referred to .5mm. Everyone agrees on the importance of VTA tuning.

IMHO your report misses what we have been mainly debating - if different recordings need different specific VTA adjustments. Can you give us more details on this aspect?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron,

These are not breaking news - most people here will tell us that 1.5mm in VTA is very significant - some even referred to .5mm. Everyone agrees on the importance of VTA tuning.

IMHO your report misses what we have been mainly debating - if different recordings need different specific VTA adjustments. Can you give us more details on this aspect?

I do not think VTA can be optimized for each record solely on the basis of vinyl thickness. I will defer to Peter on this, but my tentative answer is “yes.”

 

[Ron Resnick]

You put Tapestry on the first try and it sounded thin? Did Peter intentionally mess with his vta to prove the point before you put this record on? Or was the record you just played earlier had totally different thickness to the Tapestry and Peter adjusted his vta specifically to that record. Yesterday I was just telling Kedar that I could make my tt sound toward analytical by adjusting vta. This would involve considerable height margin of adjustment. Not one or two cards of finetuning. Just curious how many grams the Tapestry and how mang grams the record before it.

Kind regards,
Tang

One LP followed the other. Peter did not “set up” the Tapestry LP in advance for it to sound bad initially.

 

[PeterA]

I do not think VTA can be optimized for each record solely on the basis of vinyl thickness. I will defer to Peter on this, but my tentative answer is “yes.”

I agree with this. Vinyl thickness only accounts for about 1.5mm. My range is 3.0mm. I think cutting angle must also be considered. I have LPs of the same thickness that have slightly different ideal arm heights or SRAs. From this I conclude that the cutting angle must be slightly different. I could be wrong, the system may not be transparent enough, or I may be fooling myself.

Of course none of this is "breaking news". Ron must be referring to his belief system that was shattered by evidence. Ron and I met with Alan Goodwin at Goodwin's High End. We discussed the whole issue of adjusting arm height. I told Alan that I was one of the "crazies" who change arm height for different LPs, but was clear that I find the setting once, make a note of the setting, and go to it the next time I listen to that particular LP. I do not start from scratch each time. His response was that of course this stuff matters, and it is easily audible. He said cutting angle was more a factor than was thickness. He said it was a fact and not even worth debating. The only debate was whether or not the individual vinyl listener was willing to go to the trouble to make adjustments. For Alan this was all old news.

Alan Goodwin was described to me ten years ago by my SME dealer as "one of two guys left in Massachusetts who could properly set up a turntable." The other guy was the dealer himself who sold to me and set up my first SME turntable. I learned a lot from that guy.

Yes, Fransisco, 1.5mm is a huge amount of arm height adjustment. That is roughly 3/10th of one degree. The LP that we had been playing was a thin record. Ron wanted to hear Brubeck's "Take Five". We played it and it was obvious to me that the SRA was wrong. I made a quick guess that the arm should be raised to my setting of 18mm which is often, but not always, the best setting for thick LPs. It sounded much better. Perhaps I could improve it still further slightly, but I did not want to spend the time. I had not previously tried to find the setting for this LP. The next LP was the Carole King LP. I saw that it was thinner, so I moved my arm down to 17mm as a guess because it was Ron's LP. It sounded wrong, so I went to 16.5mm. That was better, but I knew it could be improved further still. I moved it down another 0.5mm to 16mm and it sounded even better. Each move took roughly 30 seconds to adjust the arm. No big deal. No tricks, just better sounding music.

The first night I played my system for Ron we heard Johny Hartman (small scale jazz band and single voice plus guitar), Cantata Domino (large scale organ, trumpets and choir, then solo soprano, then male and female choir), and finally the Sheffield Drum Track (solo drum). I never touched the arm height. Each of these three LP had the same SRA setting based on listening from years ago, so Ron and I basically just sat and enjoyed an hour of music and flipped records like everyone else.

It was only when Ron played his own LPs with which I was unfamiliar and had not previously found a proper SRA that we spent a few minutes adjusting. I simply wanted to show Ron what I do. I had no intention of proving anything or of convincing him how to approach vinyl playback.

I agree with Fransisco, none of this is new.

 

[PeterA]

One LP followed the other. Peter did not “set up” the Tapestry LP in advance for it to sound bad initially.

Frankly, this is an absurd question with an ugly inference. I have no need to trick anyone or prove anything. I don't care what other people do or don't do. Tang, Kedar, and everyone can speculate, chat, whatever. Ron heard what he heard and I will not put words in his mouth. He knows now how I approach the hobby and I think he left with an accurate impression of the sound of my system. It was a wonderful visit with many enjoyable hours of listening to music and getting to know each other.

 

[PeterA]

When we evaluate and cartridges and tonearms are we sure of what we are hearing and to what we are attributing various sonic attributes? This experience with Peter tells me that unless one spends time and attention optimizing the VTA on a particular test record conclusions about the sound of that cartridge and tonearm combination are going to be spurious. Should we be replacing a phono stage because the sound is not very transparent, or should we be changing the VTA of the tonearm on the turntable in that system to allow the system to sound more open and to prevent is from falsely accusing the phono stage of manifesting a lack of transparency or detail, on the one side, or a lack of warmth and weightiness, on the other side?

Does this mean we should find tonearms with easy-to-adjust and calibrated VTA towers (like the Axiom)? But then we run into the concern that tonearms with easy-to-adjust VTA towers may not have bearings and overall structures as rigid as tonearms which do not permit easy VTA adjustment. Maybe we should have two pairs of identical cartridge models on identical tonearms on our turntables, with one combination adjusted for thin records and the other combination adjusted for thick records?

Thanks Ron for sharing your impressions of the difference that changing arm height can make. The questions you raise in these two paragraphs I think are very personal and up to the individual listener. Personally, I do not think that one can judge the performance of a cartridge or tonearm unless he is confident that it has been properly set up. It is very complicated and time consuming to do proper comparisons with these particular components. I mentioned to you that I am suspect about record reviews if the reviewer admits that he does not optimize the cartridge setup for the particular record under review by adjusting arm height for that record. But that is just me and we all have our own thoughts about the review process.

 

[Tango]

Frankly, this is an absurd question with an ugly inference.

It is really not absurd Peter. If someone came to me to see how much influence of vta to sound, I could just set the wrong vs right vta for the purpose of demonstration. This isnt about deceiving or any ill intention. I apolpgize for misunderstood that one of Ron's agenda of the visit was to experience the sound of different vta. I thought that could be part of the demonstration because adjusting from thin coolish to normal seems like a way off initial vta.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Ron Resnick]

Please rest assured that Peter did not do that. I selected a random sequence of LPs. No test record was telegraphed in advance; no VTA height was premeditated.

 

[DaveyF]

Peter, I may have missed this, but you do check tracking force every time that you adjust the VTA, yes?
Also, are you loading your cartridge down at your preamp? I have found that every cartridge works best with a specific impedance load...and in most cases this makes a bigger difference than arm height. Obviously, a correct basic arm height is required, but once the impedance factor is correct, seems to make VTA slightly less important.

 

[PeterA]

It is really not absurd Peter. If someone came to me to see how much influence of vta to sound, I could just set the wrong vs right vta for the purpose of demonstration. This isnt about deceiving or any ill intention. I apolpgize for misunderstood that one of Ron's agenda of the visit was to experience the sound of different vta. I thought that could be part of the demonstration because adjusting from thin coolish to normal seems like a way off initial vta.

Kind regards,
Tang

Tang, Ron and I were simply enjoying listening to music. Ron was happy with the sound and I could have left it at that. Ray Brown's Solar Energy is a very bass heavy recording. I felt that the music would be more engaging if I raised the arm a bit. We were not adjusting arm height earlier because we were simply enjoying the music. But on this particular LP, the system sounded really heavy/thick to me. I wanted to see how much the sound would change if I raised the arm a bit. Ron did not ask me to do this, as I said, he liked the sound just fine. I raised it, in this case, I think about 0.5mm and it sounded better with a more articulate bass line and cleaner overall sound. Ron does not know my system like I do, so I raised the arm to my preset level fully aware of how the sound would change. Ron immediately heard the improvement. There were no games involved and we did not spend much time discussing the subject that day.

A couple of days later, when we had all day to listen to music, Ron and I played some more of his LPs. I obviously did not know what the arm settings should be for his records, so we just listened to whatever setting it was on. Most sounded fine. Then Ron found two of my old LPs that I had not heard in years. In fact, I had never listened to them for SRA so there was no arm height notation in the sleeve. First up was "Take Five". The arm had been on a medium setting for the majority of the records that Ron had brought with him. I raised the arm and it sounded better. This was an even better demonstration than "Solar Energy". Ron heard all of the improvements and differences. We started to discuss the topic of arm height. This was interesting because Ron had just heard Alan Goodwin's thoughts on the topic the day before. Alan said it had more to do with cutting angle than thickness. Anyway, Ron then wanted to hear my copy of "Tapestry". I had never played it before. It was an original, not a reissue like "Take Five" so it was much thinner. Here we lowered the arm instead of raising it. Ron now heard the different effect and we discussed the sonic differences between "too high" and "too low".

Tang, You have learned recently what to listen for with your cartridge fine tuning experiments and you have even changed some settings from the way David had set it up for you. Do you think that it sounds better? Perhaps it sounded fine on the LPs David used but not as good on some other records in your collection. Only you know why you were compelled to change it. I commend you for wanting to learn. Ron was introduced to the effects of fine tuning arm height at my house. He left with a new appreciation for the topic. It was not the purpose of his visit to Boston.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I may have missed this, but you do check tracking force every time that you adjust the VTA, yes?
Also, are you loading your cartridge down at your preamp? I have found that every cartridge works best with a specific impedance load...and in most cases this makes a bigger difference than arm height. Obviously, a correct basic arm height is required, but once the impedance factor is correct, seems to make VTA slightly less important.

Davey, you missed it. I have explained a few times, and even started a dedicated VTA/SRA thread on this very topic and how VTF is affected. In the 1.5mm up or down that my arm moves, the maximum VTF change is something like 0.025g. You can search for the thread in which I post all of the data. To confirm the audible effect of this change in VTF, I played a very familiar record and changed nothing but VTF up and down my 0.025. This change was extremely difficult to hear and I consider it insignificant compared to the 1.5mm arm height that it represents. Usually, I am only raising the arm +/- 0.5mm which is about 0.008g. I can't hear that. Simple as that. I fully understand that overhang and VTF change when I make adjustments to arm height, but as I have written very many times, those other parameters are less audible than a proportional change in SRA.

In some arm designs, azimuth also changes with arm height due to the fact that the cartridge is offset relative to the angle of the armtube and bearing. This is not the case with the SME V or V-12 where the SME engineers redesigned their arms so that the bearing angle matches the headshell/cartridge offset angle.

I load my cartridge at 47K ohms. It sounds best at that loading. I have spent much time listening to different values. I agree with you that it can sometimes make a bigger difference than arm height, but I hesitate to generalize about any of this because it so depends on the transparency of the system, the design of the phono stage, the cartridge, the stylus shape, the arm design, the phono cable, the arm wiring, way too many variables to consider.

 

[Tango]

Tang, You have learned recently what to listen for with your cartridge fine tuning experiments and you have even changed some settings from the way David had set it up for you. Do you think that it sounds better? Perhaps it sounded fine on the LPs David used but not as good on some other records in your collection. Only you know why you were compelled to change it. I commend you for wanting to learn. Ron was introduced to the effects of fine tuning arm height at my house. He left with a new appreciation for the topic.

Yes Peter. David just taught me how to ride a bicyle. Now I am on my own doin wheelie and bunny hop. It isnt so difficult, I just need to know what to look for in sound. Optimizing the point where transient and weight are balance to get the best possible tone, presence and realism. My aim is not just to sound as good as David taught me. He would probably smack my head if I dont advance myself from where he left off. I extend myself to use quite a few more records to tune my Vta. I also wouldnt get the sound I have now without adjusting the tracking force. With different tracking force, the vta process has to be revaluated again.

It is without question the vta is so crucial in getting the sound of they are here, you are there. With my limited experience, I still think that once I got the right setting all records I own and play dont sound differ as much as coolish to normal. I agree with you that adjusting specific vta for a specific record could max out the sound of that vinyl. But I can have a pretty impressive sound from different records not adjusting height with different grams of record I play.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[DaveyF]

Davey, you missed it. I have explained a few times, and even started a dedicated VTA/SRA thread on this very topic and how VTF is affected. In the 1.5mm up or down that my arm moves, the maximum VTF change is something like 0.025g. You can search for the thread in which I post all of the data. To confirm the audible effect of this change in VTF, I played a very familiar record and changed nothing but VTF up and down my 0.025. This change was extremely difficult to hear and I consider it insignificant compared to the 1.5mm arm height that it represents. Usually, I am only raising the arm +/- 0.5mm which is about 0.008g. I can't hear that. Simple as that. I fully understand that overhang and VTF change when I make adjustments to arm height, but as I have written very many times, those other parameters are less audible than a proportional change in SRA.

In some arm designs, azimuth also changes with arm height due to the fact that the cartridge is offset relative to the angle of the armtube and bearing. This is not the case with the SME V or V-12 where the SME engineers redesigned their arms so that the bearing angle matches the headshell/cartridge offset angle.

I load my cartridge at 47K ohms. It sounds best at that loading. I have spent much time listening to different values. I agree with you that it can sometimes make a bigger difference than arm height, but I hesitate to generalize about any of this because it so depends on the transparency of the system, the design of the phono stage, the cartridge, the stylus shape, the arm design, the phono cable, the arm wiring, way too many variables to consider.

Thanks Peter. I thought I may have missed where you pointed this out. Do you load all of your cartridges at the standard 47k? I would have thought the MSL would sound better at around 700 ohms. Have you tried that?
Also, since Azimuth will change as you vary VTA, I think it is a little surprising that you don’t hear that as you go away from vertical. You say the bearing angle changes to match the new angle, but I would think that this would also add the potential for chatter etc., maybe not...??
I agree with you 100%, there are numerous variables in this vinyl hobby, most of them will make a difference to the SQ. I still maintain that speed accuracy is probably the most important thing to get right, followed by a good isolation from the surrounding environment....get these two right, and I think you are at least 90% of the way there, IME.

 

[PeterA]

It is without question the vta is so crucial in getting the sound of they are here, you are there. With my limited experience, I still think that once I got the right setting all records I own and play dont sound differ as much as coolish to normal. I agree with you that adjusting specific vta for a specific record could max out the sound of that vinyl. But I can have a pretty impressive sound from different records not adjusting height with different grams of record I play.

Kind regards,
Tang

I agree. I think I mentioned that Ron thought the music sounded just fine on a couple of those LPs before I adjusted them. This is where those who choose not to adjust frequently reside. A well set up system can sound excellent without adjustments. That's how most of us enjoy our systems. But many know that with a small bit of extra effort, an excellent sound can become slightly better, even great, on a case by case basis. This is what Ron experienced during his recent visit.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I agree. I think I mentioned that Ron thought the music sounded just fine on a couple of those LPs before I adjusted them. This is where those who choose not to adjust frequently reside. I well set up system can sound excellent without adjustments. That's how must of us enjoy our systems. But many know that with a small bit of extra effort, an excellent sound can become slightly better, even great, on a case by case basis. This is what Ron experienced during his recent visit.

I agree with this. What startled (disturbed) me were the situations where changing the VTA caused the sound of the voice to go from “something is not right here” to “ah, that sounds normal and correct now.” I simply was not prepared for that magnitude of sonic difference arising solely from changing VTA. The differences were important enough often enough that I really feel like this is a serious thing that needs to be thought through and resolved one way or another in terms of equipment (does it make sense to have two identical cartridge/tone set-ups — one with VTA permanently set for thin records and one with VTA permanently set for thick records?) and personal vinyl playback protocol.

Other times I heard little to no difference. But on these examples I was not nearly as familiar about what to listen for as Peter is because he has identified very specific things that he focuses on to evaluate different sounds resulting from different VTA settings.

I never noticed this phenomenon for 18 years when I had my Benz Ruby 2 mounted to a Graham 2.0/2.2 on a VPI TNT Mk. IV. So it remains the case that some tonearms and some cartridges may be more sensitive to tonearm height than other tonearms and other cartridges.

 

[PeterA]

I never noticed this phenomenon for 18 years when I had my Benz Ruby 2 mounted to a Graham 2.0/2.2 on a VPI TNT Mk. IV. So it remains the case that some tonearms and some cartridges may be more sensitive to tonearm height than other tonearms and other cartridges.

Ron, I think it has something to do with stylus shape and the resolution of the playback system. Also one's sensitivities and priorities. Others certainly know more that I do about the causes of what we hear.

 

[ddk]

I never noticed this phenomenon for 18 years when I had my Benz Ruby 2 mounted to a Graham 2.0/2.2 on a VPI TNT Mk. IV. So it remains the case that some tonearms and some cartridges may be more sensitive to tonearm height than other tonearms and other cartridges.

No, IME all cartridges are very responsive to VTA changes but not all systems or front ends, question of resolution. Many times I've had to switch out phono cables that mask and color so much that VTA changes of even +/- 10mm are barely audible.

david

 

[bonzo75]

No, IME all cartridges are very responsive to VTA changes but not all systems or front ends, question of resolution. Many times I've had to switch out phono cables that mask and color so much that VTA changes of even +/- 10mm are barely audible.

david

I am also trying to find out why some analog systems make all recordings sound similar while some don't. Interesting if phono cables were the culprit.

 

[ddk]

I am also trying to find out why some analog systems make all recordings sound similar while some don't. Interesting if phono cables was the culprit.

It comes down to resolution Ked, always look at the system wires specially power cords first but you can't ignore the front end itself either. Many were designed to sound a certain way no matter what and I've heard decent ones tweaked with all kinds of 3rd party parts which has changed their character with strong coloration.

david