Sublime Sound

[PeterA]

I have to meet that mathematical genius and yes, as I have said before, LP thickness makes no difference because, if you do the math, the difference in thickness is just tiny factions of a mm between, say, 180 and 200g. What's even worse with "thicker" pressings and the assumptin that SRA is different, is that the master isn't necessarily cut with that thicker a lacquer - it's the actual *pressing* that's thicker: same master -> different pressing thicknesses.

That was a fun day of listening, Ack. I've got to come back some day and hear your vinyl again knowing it will all be with the proper SRA.

 

[ack]

I'll also show you why I had set it lower than calculated, with the hi hats on the Reference Recordings Swing LP; you will get out of the room at the setting you preferred with your LPs. Which only goes to show that SRA can be dramatic. Then you can post your own impressions. Meantime, I am waiting for a balanced MIT 50ic to go between the XP-25 and the preamp, plus the MA-X phono is now properly shielded... I've also made modifications to the espresso machine and can get proper 8-9 atmospheres pressure

 

[PeterA]

I'll also show you why I had set it lower than calculated, with the hi hats on the Reference Recordings Swing LP; you will get out of the room at the setting you preferred with your LPs. Which only goes to show that SRA can be dramatic. Then you can post your own impressions. Meantime, I am waiting for a balanced MIT 50ic to go between the XP-25 and the preamp, plus the MA-X phono is now properly shielded... I've also made modifications to the espresso machine and can get proper 8-9 atmospheres pressure

My VTA settings are all for individual LPs and don't correspond with LP thickness. I don't remember adjusting for that RR Swing LP. Perhaps the RR are cut with a different angle, or I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that they are originally digital. I look forward to hearing it.

Had you been using a single ended cable out of the XP-25? I tried both versions of my Transparent REF XL and preferred the balanced output. My old XOno sounded better with the single ended output. Regarding the espresso maker, I love it when a scientific mind is used to improve such a simple pleasure.

 

[ack]

I am using the Tyr2 balanced, up for sale now.

 

[PeterA]

I had a couple of audio buddies over last night to listen to some music. One had not heard the system for a couple of years so it was interesting to learn what he thought of the recent changes and how they effected the overall sound. I find that over time it becomes difficult to appreciate the cumulative effects of system changes. With his consent, I post the two emails he sent me this morning:

Peter:
Just a note to thank you for a wonderful (and ear-opening) evening. It was a pleasure to see you both again and share a few hours.
If we accept that there are many paths to Nirvana, and that we’re all pilgrims along the way, you would seem to be in the vanguard; if not already knocking at the gate. I’ve heard Magico speakers only a few times but, honestly, I wondered what all the fuss was about. They always sounded good; but not spectacular. Last night I learned just how exceptional they can be given copacetic ancillaries and attention to detail.
I don’t know how much you adjusted the VTA during the Mendelssohn but the sonic and musical consequence, as VTA adjustments go, was large and unequivocal. I do not recall ever hearing that stark a contrast due to VTA adjustment alone. Resolution of the system seems high enough to reveal the slightest change anywhere along the chain.
More to the point: The MUSIC comes through.
Well done Peter!
Best regards,
John.

Peter:
I have NEVER heard that Drum Track record sound good since it was released.
Last night it was goose-bumpy, hair-raising, awesome.
John.

These comments come from a tube/horn/analog aficionado, so I appreciate the idea of "many paths to Nirvana". It's also interesting that a 1mm lowering of VTA on the 12" arm resulted in such a dramatic improvement in sound. This represents less than a quarter of a degree in SRA. Finally, it was fun to share the dynamic capabilities of the sealed, two-way Magico Mini2 by playing the Sheffield Drum Record. What an acid test. The explosive dynamics and impact are in part a direct result of Jim Smith's voicing of these speakers to my room.

 

[Al M.]

Today I had the opportunity to listen to Peter's system. Peter was a very kind host with whom it is a pleasure to talk about audio and other things. Our tastes in audio reproduction appear to be rather similar as well. Listening to the system was a very impressive experience, and this digital-only guy could hear what good analog really can do. There was a great amount of timbral detail, and timbres could be breathtakingly natural. The voices of Louis Armstrong (on two different recordings) and Muddy Waters were very convincing, as if they were singing in the room. While I find that Redbook CD can reproduce most timbres quite well, so far it has always failed me on the reproduction of the raspiness and breathiness of tenor sax (as a caveat though I have to say that I have never compared the same recordings on CD and vinyl). Like in the analog system of a friend in Connecticut, tenor sax really came through convincingly on Peter's system. The sound of the flugelhorn on Hugh Masekela's Hope was also very natural and detailed. On a recording for guitar and bass there was a track that impressively portrayed the resonant wooden body of bowed bass. Yet as it should be I never heard any box coloration from the speakers during the entire session, and the sound was always very clean with great instrument separation on the best recordings. -- Imaging was great, as you would expect from mini-monitors.

Yet what stood out for me the most were the dynamics. On Hugh Masekela's Hope the mid-bass energy and dynamics were stunning, as were the dynamics of the voice. The dynamics of Muddy Water's close-miked voice were downright explosive -- here as on other occasions the system showed that it shines not just in the portrayal of macro-dynamics, but also in the energetic rendering of micro-dynamics, something that most systems have real trouble with, but not Peter's. And the Sheffield drum track featured explosive dynamics as well. Others have already commented on how great that track sounds on Peter's system.

On the downside I noticed that several of the recordings of classical small-scale music we tried, as well as a Led Zeppelin LP (standard edition), sounded rather mediocre, while imaging was in general excellent also on these recordings. These LPs were from mainstream labels where not just the recording quality is not the greatest, but the pressing quality of the vinyl apparently suffers, too. I had noticed the problem of poor vinyl pressings on the analog system in Connecticut as well. Thus, it seems to be a more general vinyl problem, not specifically tied to Peter's system. Granted, CD pressings can also vary in quality, but I don't think as much as vinyl pressings (the varying quality of CD recordings is a different matter).

On these more mediocre sounding LPs a closing-in of the highs became also much more apparent than on the great recordings/pressings mentioned above, while to some minor extent it was present there too. It may be a function of the acoustics of Peter's rather small room or the load setting of the phono stage, but on the best recordings it is hardly a distraction from the stunning overall quality of sound, which is among the best I have heard. Congratulations on a great system, Peter!

 

[Al M.]

One of the recordings we listened to yesterday were pieces for solo violin with Gidon Kremer on a Philips LP. The violin sounded a bit more distant, and I had always known that at a distance the instrument tends to sound less bright, with less shimmering overtones. Yet even with that in mind, I found the violin sound to be a bit too dull. Yet today in church I heard a solo violin at a distance, and the tone seemed just as 'dull'! Thus, the sound of the recording on Peter's system may have been much more realistic than I thought, since this kind of tone is within the range of how live violin can sound.

This shows once more that the most valid comparisons are not necessarily those of systems with one another, comparisons that may simply express preferences, but the comparison of a system with (unamplified) live sound -- does it sound believable within the range of different timbres that live music can offer?

 

[MadFloyd]

One of the recordings we listened to yesterday were pieces for solo violin with Gidon Kremer on a Philips LP. The violin sounded a bit more distant, and I had always known that at a distance the instrument tends to sound less bright, with less shimmering overtones. Yet even with that in mind, I found the violin sound to be a bit too dull. Yet today in church I heard a solo violin at a distance, and the tone seemed just as 'dull'! Thus, the sound of the recording on Peter's system may have been much more realistic than I thought, since this kind of tone is within the range of how live violin can sound.

This shows once more that the most valid comparisons are not necessarily those of systems with one another, comparisons that may simply express preferences, but the comparison of a system with (unamplified) live sound -- does it sound believable within the range of different timbres that live music can offer?

Out of curiosity, was the acoustics in your church vastly different from the acoustics/ambience you heard on the recording? If the church is reverberant and the Gidon Kremer recording is not (e.g. more dry), then you might not comparing apples with apples. What I'm trying to say is that reverberance will tame the highs (or at least I think it would... someone correct me if I'm wrong).

I have the same LP so I'm now curious as to how it was recorded and will check.

Note that I'm not suggesting there's anything amiss with Peter's system. I have heard it several times and it does violin really well.

 

[jfrech]

Peter has a nice system. It's interesting that you really don't miss tubes at all. It's so engaging...a lot of tube bigots would be surprised. (I used to be 100% tubes..now a mix) It's a very well balanced and set up system (likely more important than tubes or ss)

 

[Al M.]

Out of curiosity, was the acoustics in your church vastly different from the acoustics/ambience you heard on the recording? If the church is reverberant and the Gidon Kremer recording is not (e.g. more dry), then you might not comparing apples with apples.

Good point. Yes, I thought the acoustic ambience was quite similar, somewhat but not very reverberant.

 

[Al M.]

Peter has a nice system. It's interesting that you really don't miss tubes at all. It's so engaging...a lot of tube bigots would be surprised. (I used to be 100% tubes..now a mix) It's a very well balanced and set up system (likely more important than tubes or ss)

Indeed. For me both macro- and micro-dynamics, the latter being the constant small yet often energetic leaps between loudness levels that portray so much of the liveliness of music, are very important. Older solid state just couldn't do micro-dynamics, which is why I kept being 'tube bound'. Yet technology has developed, and Peter's Pass amps can do all dynamics extraordinarily well -- case closed for me. And in terms of tone I don't miss tubes in his system either. Also, the speakers sound with a single coherent voice, which may be an important part of the impression that, as you say, the sound is very well balanced.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Also, the speakers sound with a single coherent voice, which may be an important part of the impression that, as you say, the sound is very well balanced.

AL M.,

You are addressing one of the most important aspects to create an enjoyable illusion. But I have found that is does not depend only on the speakers, but on the whole system and room. When this happens the performance "disconnects" from the speakers.

Curious that I also have found the Mini II´s are particularly good in this aspect when well matched.

 

[Al M.]

AL M.,

You are addressing one of the most important aspects to create an enjoyable illusion. But I have found that is does not depend only on the speakers, but on the whole system and room.

Microstrip,

yes, you are right of course. The Pass amps' sound is extraordinarily coherent too, as is usually the sound of a tube amp, at least when it is able to efficiently carry the load of the speakers it drives. That is also possibly a reason why the Pass amps may sound appealing to tube lovers. Peter's analog source may be almost beyond reproach, and the room is sufficiently treated and the room/speaker interaction voiced by Jim Smith (RoomPlay).

 

[PeterA]

Today I had the opportunity to listen to Peter's system. Peter was a very kind host with whom it is a pleasure to talk about audio and other things. Our tastes in audio reproduction appear to be rather similar as well. Listening to the system was a very impressive experience, and this digital-only guy could hear what good analog really can do. There was a great amount of timbral detail, and timbres could be breathtakingly natural. The voices of Louis Armstrong (on two different recordings) and Muddy Waters were very convincing, as if they were singing in the room....On a recording for guitar and bass there was a track that impressively portrayed the resonant wooden body of bowed bass. Yet as it should be I never heard any box coloration from the speakers during the entire session, and the sound was always very clean with great instrument separation on the best recordings. --

Thank you for the kind words, Al. I really enjoyed meeting you and spending some time together. The guitar and bass recording was Ray Brown & L. Almeida, Moonlight Serenade, Jeton, Jet 33 004. This is a direct to disk recording. The Louis Armstrong was a 45 RPM of St. James Infirmary from Satchmo Plays King Oliver, and the Gidon Kremer was Kremer & Kremer, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Ravel, Milhaud, Satie on Philips 9500 912.

I am particularly interested in your observations because you listen to a lot of live acoustic music, and you have a system based around mini monitors with tube amplification. You also listen exclusively to digital. I appreciate your candor and prefer to hear honest feedback. After you left, I started to set up a new cartridge for what will be a summer of cartridge trials. It will be interesting to see if and how cartridge loading and the two new cartridges may effect the sound of the system, especially in the area of the high frequencies. Today I mounted and installed a My Sonic Labs, Signature Gold which I am borrowing from a friend. That will be followed by a VDH Colibri Platinum which I just added to my collection. Interesting times ahead.

A big part of the joy of the hobby is meeting fellow music lovers and sharing listen time.

 

[PeterA]

I mounted and aligned a My Sonics Labs, Signature Gold cartridge in my system this afternoon. It is designed by the same man who designed my AirTight Supreme. It will be very interesting to see how they are different. I used my MINT LP protractor. This was made specifically for my Supreme/SME V-12 combination because the SME arm does not have a slotted headshell and therefore requires a cartridge specific protractor. However, based on my digital calipers, each cartridge's stylus tip to mounting hole distance is identical, so the same MINT can be used to align both cartridges.

The cartridge has only 15-20 hours on it, so it will be at least a couple of weeks before it is fully broken in and I have a sense of how it performs.

 

[PeterA]

Microstrip,

yes, you are right of course. The Pass amps' sound is extraordinarily coherent too, as is usually the sound of a tube amp, at least when it is able to efficiently carry the load of the speakers it drives. That is also possibly a reason why the Pass amps may sound appealing to tube lovers.

The Pass XA160.5 has 320 watts of Class A into the 4 ohm load of the Magico Mini2. Even during the most demanding and loud music, my needles rarely move, indicating that the amps do not leave Class A. This means that you don't have the distortion that occurs when shifting between Class A and Class A/B. I think this may explain some of the coherent and pure sound of the amps and why they are often described as sounding similar to tubes, especially in the higher frequencies.

IMHO, Pass Labs amplifiers and Magico speakers are a particularly good combination. The original Magico Mini was developed in part using a Pass X350 stereo amp. The former head of sales for Magico, Irv Gross, uses Pass XA100.5 monos with his Magico V2 speakers, or at least he used to.

There are very few Pass/Magico dealers, so one usually sees Magico paired with other SS brands such as Spectral, Solution, Boulder and Constellation because of their dealership network.

Because Magico speakers are so transparent, one hears quite clearly what the other components in the system sound like. And people often say that they listen to the amps when they listen to Magico speakers. I'm reminded of Jimmy Hendrix saying that he didn't play guitar, he played amplifier.

 

[Al M.]

Today Peter spontaneously invited me for another listening session *), so that I would be able to hear his new cartridge which now had about 35 hours of playing time. The last time I had some concerns about closed-in highs; the new cartridge addressed these concerns to a large extent. We agreed that the cartridge was also more detailed, and I liked the violin on the Gidon Kremer recording better. Perhaps there was a bit less reverberant envelope to the tones, but Peter and I agreed that we were judging from memory which may be a bit tricky. Switching back to the old cartridge later on will provide more insight. The violin in Hindemith's fantastic violin concerto (with Oistrakh) was very convincing, as was the piano sound on the Beethoven Apassionata brilliantly played by Ikuyo Kamiya on a 45 rpm LP. The rendition of the recording on Peter's system may not be the most enticing for those wishing for crystalline clarity, but the diffuse, soft halo enveloping the notes was very realistic to my ears -- I hear that halo more often than not in live performances, even though crystalline piano sound can be heard on some live occasions as well (obviously the use of pedal plays a role, too). The diffuse halo is to such an extent also more frequently heard on a Bösendorfer, the piano on this recording, than on a Steinway for example. The dynamics were spectacular. Solo piano falls flat dynamically on most systems that I have heard, especially solid-state based ones, but Peter's system reproduces the often explosive macro-and micro-dynamics of well recorded piano in a flawless, utterly impressive manner (again, hats off to the solid-state Pass amps which very much satisfy this tube lover). Tenor sax on three different recordings sounded wonderful. The Sheffield drum track sounded at least as good and dynamic as last time. Overall, I could only find positive things with the new cartridge, in particular regarding the reproduction of highs, while any potential drawbacks were not readily apparent. Once more I was thoroughly impressed by Peter's system.

Thanks Peter for a great time!

___________________________
*) That was easy since I live in the next small city, just 10 minutes away. I'll invite Peter over to listen to my system once it is available again. Currently my music room is a construction site; I am getting soundproof shutters (wood facing the room so that acoustics are not degraded, mass-loaded vinyl facing the windows).

 

[PeterA]

Here is a link to my comparison of the MSL Signature Gold and AirTight Supreme cartridges:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...abs-Gold-Signature-VS-Air-Tight-Supreme/page2

 

[PeterA]

I heard Peter's system this past summer and didn't want to comment here until he had a chance to listen to mine (yesterday), for fear he would feel compelled to return the kind words on my system's page... So to make a long story short, PeterA and I appear to have the same goal - accuracy. Based on that, and considering his speakers cannot go as low, move enough air, and you can't really get the scale of an orchestra as with larger speakers, the sound is as he says - truly sublime, and overall (with the understanding that I have heard a few dozen systems only) the most accurate I have yet heard, save the Q series Magicos, and clearly a class above mine - a true reference system! It is QUITE impressive and the sound exceptionally realistic, to be honest, just perhaps a bit less resolving than mine.

Bravo Peter!

Thank you for your kind comments, Ack.

 

[johndoe21ro]

Amazing system, Peter. Thanks for sharing. I kinda have a thing for reference grade standmount loudspeakers.