Sublime Sound

[ddk]

i think this is a 'ddk-if-ication' of Peter's system to then allow each tweak to re-earn his confidence.

getting a base line. a cleansing.

check back in 6 months.

Actually this is incorrect terminology, it implies that something was added or the system was tweaked and tuned (I hate this most!) but what he's done is the opposite ! Decluttering and removing obstacles from his system is really what's going on here.

As far as the moving blanket goes it could have been something that came up as a result of other tweaks or there might be an actual need for some kind of treatment behind the speakers, either way a moving blanket is a quick fix to identify if something is needed or not, there are far better and more elegant solutions than a moving blanket if called for.

David

 

[bazelio]

@PeterA with what did you replace the transparent cables?

 

[tima]

I have always had a worry about this also. I am always afraid of somehow moving the pod and screwing up the carefully set geometry. Audiophile nervosa would develop quickly! (“Something sounds a bit different. Did I hit the pod without realizing it?” Oh no! I hope DDK can come back soon!”)

But we seem to be wrong.

The top of the line Kuzma uses the detached pod system. So does the DaVinci turntable, and quite a few others.

In concept keeping the base of the tonearm detached from the plinth is a great design because of the isolation it naturally achieves.

Wrong? About what?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Wrong? About what?

Wrong to be concerned about a detached tonearm base.

If not wrong, then maybe overly concerned.

 

[microstrip]

i think it's right to be fearful of the potential issues with a free standing arm pod/base. but i think it will vary from situation to situation how concerning it needs to be. things as mundane as how cramped things are in your room, who might bump it, how comfortable you are checking alignment, and how difficult it might be to check alignment, are things to consider first. then there is how stable and grippy the base is and how likely is it to slide.

i now have a free standing arm pod on the CS Port where i never had one before. and the arm box/pod has hard metal footers on a smooth granite shelf surface. so it might be a problem. in Mik's room he uses sorbathane spacers between the arm box and plinth of the CS Port to keep things properly in place. but he has turntables everywhere and said he tends to bump against things navigating. and his shelf is low and so not as comfortable to always easily reach and see. i have my tt's up, with plenty of room, at an easy height and so no reason for mine to be jostled. it's a dedicated space and so nothing to worry about there.

but the aces in the hole are that (1) the alignment jig is just amazing and super easy and quick to do, so checking is no issue at all, and (2) a separate arm box sounds better.

IMHO we can't compare the CS Port situation with the SME30 - the SME has a damped spring suspension isolating the platform where the arm is placed from the turntable chassis/platter. If the suspension of the SME is carrying any useful work, the SME 3012R is amplifying its signals.

But, as always, what matters is the subjective perceived sound quality. However those who want to know the objective truth there is a simple test that checks for these effects - recording the output of the turntable with both tonearms playing a blank LP while paying music loud form other source or just looking at the signals in an audio spectrometer.

 

[tima]

Wrong to be concerned about a detached tonearm base.

If not wrong, then maybe overly concerned.

Nah, just because they exist doesn't mean inherently "a great design".

An armpod becomes a three dimensional object floating in space susceptible to factors not affecting plinth mounted arms. Stability is certainly a concern - Peter made his 40lbs. Making even simple tonearm adjustments such as VTF or antiskate can mean inadvertantly changing P2S if not some other parameter. Am I certain it didn't move? I'm not passing judgement one way or the other because I have not used a detached armpod. (Have you?) And because I haven't used one it seemed reasonable to ask Peter if he experienced any issues with his.

I'm also curious if there are any issues with a suspended table and an unsuspected arm?

 

[PeterA]

@PeterA with what did you replace the transparent cables?

bazelio, the Transparent cables have not been replaced. I have two complete sets of cables. I am currently using Burley Wire cables which are made by an employee at Pass Labs. It is a simple, cheap, and basic set of cables which sound good in my system. At some point, I will reinsert the Transparent cables.

 

[PeterA]

Nah, just because they exist doesn't mean inherently "a great design".

An armpod becomes a three dimensional object floating in space susceptible to factors not affecting plinth mounted arms. Stability is certainly a concern - Peter made his 40lbs. Making even simple tonearm adjustments such as VTF or antiskate can mean inadvertantly changing P2S if not some other parameter. Am I certain it didn't move? I'm not passing judgement one way or the other because I have not used a detached armpod. (Have you?) And because I haven't used one it seemed reasonable to ask Peter if he experienced any issues with his.

I'm also curious if there are any issues with a suspended table and an unsuspected arm?

Tim, I don't think an SME 3012R ever "suspected" that it would be used with an SME turntable.

Using a fixed outboard arm with a suspended table is not ideal because the arm pivot is not rigidly fixed in space relative to the spindle. This is a well known compromise in what I am trying to do. However, the SME suspension is not "springy". I suspect that record warps and the eccentricity of the spindle hole cause greater movement in both the vertical and horizontal directions than does the movement of the platter from the suspension, in all real world scenarios. The issue in theory is that the spindle to pivot distance is not fixed. In practice, movement due to the suspension working seems imperceptible, and the arm sounds really good.

Frankly, my bigger worry is that the platter and fixed arm are isolated from the motor noise because of the suspension towers while the arm pod is not isolated from that motor. The motor sits on the lower steel chassis which rests on four ball bearings supported by a steel slab. The arm pod sits on that steel slab. That is why I designed the arm pod to be so massive.

I have had no issues with the armpod sliding around. I could insert some Isodamp disks under each footer and then it would be even harder to move it. In the end, this is nothing more than a fun experiment. The intent is to add a second arm to my turntable which was designed for only one arm. This outboard arm pod will allow me to mount and play two of my four cartridges. It also allows me to try the 3012R which is highly regarded by some folks around here. This project accomplishes those goals. I realize it is not ideal, but it is what it is.

 

[ddk]

Nah, just because they exist doesn't mean inherently "a great design".

An armpod becomes a three dimensional object floating in space susceptible to factors not affecting plinth mounted arms. Stability is certainly a concern - Peter made his 40lbs. Making even simple tonearm adjustments such as VTF or antiskate can mean inadvertantly changing P2S if not some other parameter. Am I certain it didn't move? I'm not passing judgement one way or the other because I have not used a detached armpod. (Have you?) And because I haven't used one it seemed reasonable to ask Peter if he experienced any issues with his.

I'm also curious if there are any issues with a suspended table and an unsuspected arm?

There shouldn’t be any issues with Peter’s setup, the suspension isn’t bouncing like a trampoline while in operation. The bounciest turntable I’ve ever come across is the Avid, this was years ago and if I’m not mistaken the armboard is fixed. A solid heavy armbase like Peter’s not going to move with normal handling either, don’t really understand the concern expressed here, if anything he has a better and more stable platform than the table itself.

david

 

[tima]

There shouldn’t be any issues with Peter’s setup, the suspension isn’t bouncing like a trampoline while in operation. The bounciest turntable I’ve ever come across is the Avid, this was years ago and if I’m not mistaken the armboard is fixed. A solid heavy armbase like Peter’s not going to move with normal handling either, don’t really understand the concern expressed here, if anything he has a better and more stable platform than the table itself.

david

This has gone a bit off track and I need to reply. It was Ron that introduced the notion of concern and being wrong, so I replied to his post - I had neither. All I wanted to do was learn what the issues were - if any - having an outboard pod from a guy who just built one. My question came before learning his was 40 pounds, which I considered an answer.

 

[tima]

Tim, I don't think an SME 3012R ever suspected that it would be used with an SME turntable.

Using a fixed outboard arm with a suspended table is not ideal because the arm pivot is not rigidly fixed in space relative to the spindle. This is a well known compromise in what I am trying to do. However, the SME suspension is not "springy". I suspect that record warps and the eccentricity of the spindle hole cause greater movement in both the vertical and horizontal directions than does the movement of the platter from the suspension, in all real world scenarios. The issue in theory is that the spindle to pivot distance is not fixed. In practice, movement due to the suspension working seems imperceptible, and the arm sounds really good.

Frankly, my bigger worry is that the platter and fixed arm are isolated from the motor noise because of the suspension towers while the arm pod is not isolated from that motor. The motor sits on the lower steel chassis which rests on four ball bearings supported by a steel slab. The arm pod sits on that steel slab. That is why I designed the arm pod to be so massive.

I have had no issues with the armpod sliding around. I could insert some Isodamp disks under each footer and then it would be even harder to move it. In the end, this is nothing more than a fun experiment. The intent is to add a second arm to my turntable which was designed for only one arm. This outboard arm pod will allow me to mount and play two of my four cartridges. It also allows me to try the 3012R which is highly regarded by some folks around here. This project accomplishes those goals. I realize it is not ideal, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the follow-up. Obviously you (and David) put considerable thought into building this. I'm glad you have the opportunity use the 3012R and to compare it with your 12" V and look forward to hearing about that. I had a standard SME V with my Teres table so have some experience with the genre.

 

[ddk]

This has gone a bit off track and I need to reply. It was Ron that introduced the notion of concern and being wrong, so I replied to his post - I had neither. All I wanted to do was learn what the issues were - if any - having an outboard pod from a guy who just built one. My question came before learning his was 40 pounds, which I considered an answer.

I know I used your post to reply to everyone who had raised concerns about the outboard structure.

david

 

[PeterA]

I spent Saturday setting up and then listening to the 3012R with the vdH Master Signature on the new outboard arm pod. I am very pleased with the sound and the performance of this project. Sunday morning I mounted my MySonicLab Signature Gold cartridge to my V-12 arm. This was the most recent combination in my system before I got involved with the vdH Colibri XPP and then the Master Signature. Al M. came over yesterday, and we spent the late afternoon and evening listening to the system and comparing the two arm/cartridge combinations.

Al may share his take on the session, but I can say that I really enjoyed both combinations. They actually sound quite similar. I found the V-12/MSL to sound slightly darker overall while the 3012R/MS had a more even tonal balance and just slightly more energy and inner detail resolution. How much is the arm versus the cartridge is unclear right now. I will say that each time we switched combinations playing the same music, I honestly thought how lucky I am to have both combinations sounding so excellent.

I will see how things develop because with all of the changes to room treatments and various tweaks, I am still dialing in the system, and I know I have more work to do with fine tuning the 3012R VTA. I am hoping to find one setting which works well on all of my LPs, but we will see. This is an old habit which will die hard.

Al and I did move around the speakers a bit and raise the VTA on the V-12/MSL relative to the last time that combination was set up. So it is clear that my system is in flux and I have a lot of work to do this Winter.

I have been curious about comparing the new and vintage SME 12" arms for quite some time. I am very excited that this project will eventually allow me to do that. I do plan to mount the V-12 on the armpod to assess the pod's contribution if any to the overall sound. I will also have the same cartridge in both arms at some point to do a proper direct comparison. This will take time.

I did find that when the Master Signature was on the V-12 that I did not listen to some of my favorite jazz reissues and newer pop female recordings due to sibilance. I don't know if that was improper cartridge set up, an inherent characteristic of the cartridge, or a fundamental incompatibility of the V-12 and MS cartridge.

One benefit from having the armpod is that I can use the 3012R/MS combination for my excellent sounding classical LPs without any sibilance, and the V-12/MSL combination for those other LPs which cause sibilance issues with the Master Sig. I may also find that the 3012R and Master Sig have no sibilance issue. We will see.

Right now, as I sit here, I can say that I am very impressed with the 3012R/MS combination, and that it works to my satisfaction with the SME 30/12 turntable, a very unlikely combination. There is room for optimization, but I am quite satisfied knowing that I can now experience the joy of having two different arm/cartridge combinations to use as the mood strikes, a condition that many members here do indeed enjoy.

Thank you for your questions and comments, and thank you ddk for helping and encouraging me to do this project. I am learning a lot about my system. I have the sense that I am only now starting to tap into its real potential. It will be fun to see where it leads me.

 

[Al M.]

I spent Saturday setting up and then listening to the 3012R with the vdH Master Signature on the new outboard arm pod. I am very pleased with the sound and the performance of this project. Sunday morning I mounted my MySonicLab Signature Gold cartridge to my V-12 arm. This was the most recent combination in my system before I got involved with the vdH Colibri XPP and then the Master Signature. Al M. came over yesterday, and we spent the late afternoon and evening listening to the system and comparing the two arm/cartridge combinations.

Al may share his take on the session, but I can say that I really enjoyed both combinations. They actually sound quite similar. I found the V-12/MSL to sound slightly darker overall while the 3012R/MS had a more even tonal balance and just slightly more energy and inner detail resolution. How much is the arm versus the cartridge is unclear right now.

Thank you, Peter, for the invitation to hear both arm/cartridge set-ups. This was a very interesting and informative session, in more than one way. Since it has been an intense topic for discussion, let me first confirm that the arm pod is hard to move. You have to exert significant force from your hand to even just move it a little by sliding. It seems extremely unlikely to me that it would ever move during regular operation. Seeing the arm pod in person confirms the impressive design and execution.

I can agree with your overall characterization of the sound differences, even though I would say that the degree of difference between the arm/cartridge set-ups differs between recordings. I would also like to point out that I hear the same basic sound characteristics of the Master Signature across both tone arms, on which I have heard it mounted. As you say, how much is the arm versus the cartridge is unclear right now.

As for the tonal balance of the V-12/MSL, this possibly can be made more similar to the 3012R/vdH-MS by greater speaker toe-in. This might make for a fairer comparison. On one hand you could say that one should compare under the same conditions and then come to conclusions of quality, one the other hand varying set-up for each component plays into the idea that the quality of sound of a given component is very much system and set-up dependent.

I will see how things develop because with all of the changes to room treatments and various tweaks, I am still dialing in the system, and I know I have more work to do with fine tuning the 3012R VTA. I am hoping to find one setting which works well on all of my LPs, but we will see. This is an old habit which will die hard.

If I had an analog rig, this would be a habit that would never die. Each and every session at your house has convinced me of the necessity to adjust VTA for each record, there is just no way around it.

***

It is clear that the 3012R tone arm is an impressive sounding component, given how well it performs with the vdH Master Signature.

 

[ddk]

If I had an analog rig, this would be a habit that would never die. Each and every session at your house has convinced me of the necessity to adjust VTA for each record, there is just no way around it.

Until you know how to find the actual correct VTA for each particular cartridge !

david

 

[Al M.]

Until you know how to find the actual correct VTA for each particular cartridge !

david

The technical fact remains that vinyl thickness and cutting angles are different between LPs. This needs to be compensated for. So there is no single correct VTA for each particular cartridge, there is a correct VTA for each LP tracked by a given cartridge.

 

[ddk]

The technical fact remains that vinyl thickness and cutting angles are different between LPs. This needs to be compensated for. So there is no single correct VTA for each particular cartridge, there is a correct VTA for each LP tracked by a given cartridge.

No.
david

 

[Lagonda]

I believe it is very arm dependent, some arms are more sensitive to small VTA
changes. The 3012R is a forgiving arm that with correct setup will play
well with different record thicknesses . You have to be careful in general, not to
use VTA as tone- control for your tonal preference instead of the sound that
is actually on the record

 

[PeterA]

Until you know how to find the actual correct VTA for each particular cartridge !

david

David, I have disagreed with you in the past on this subject, but I have to say, I want to believe you. I would like nothing more than to find that correct VTA for a given cartridge and then leave it alone. It seems I am unable to do this because I have found during my sessions with Al that one LP can sound just right and then another not, until I slightly raise or lower the arm. I have found this to also be the case in other systems.

So, I guess the next question is how can you teach me to find the correct VTA? Like Tango, I am humble and here to learn. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. I really want to believe what you are saying. Perhaps a trip to the Boston area is in your future, or a visit for me out West.

 

[Lagonda]

David, I have disagreed with you in the past on this subject, but I have to say, I want to believe you. I would like nothing more than to find that correct VTA for a given cartridge and then leave it alone. It seems I am unable to do this because I have found during my sessions with Al that one LP can sound just right and then another not, until I slightly raise or lower the arm. I have found this to also be the case in other systems.

So, I guess the next question is how can you teach me to find the correct VTA? Like Tango, I am humble and here to learn. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. I really want to believe what you are saying. Perhaps a trip to the Boston area is in your future, or a visit for me out West.

Peter, you know that there is a fool proof way of having David show up at
your doorstep