Sublime Sound

[PeterA]

Peter, if this is the case you should borrow Ian's CH and Dartzeel and see if things sound more different through it

Ked, I don't know where this is coming from. Are you saying I can't hear differences or that my gear is flawed if I report that the sounds are more alike than different? We are talking in relative terms here. Define sounding different or similar. They are both accomplished and capable cartridges and they have more in common with each other than either does with say a Benz LPS or Lyra Titan i.

The cartridges do sound different, and they are on different arms. However, they both sound good and like music to me. I thought this before the addition of the 3012R, and I think this now. Things may change if I install the MSL on the 3012R. Who knows?

These two cartridges are like two mallards. We clearly see that the male and female look different and that one is freer to fly around, but they still nest with each other and both taste good. However, upon closer scrutiny, we see that one can lay eggs and neither looks like a pigeon.

 

[howiebrou]

I will say that the Master Signature sounds great in both arms in both locations, even though the outboard arm pod is a flawed approach in theory. In practice is sounds really good.

At the end of the day that is all what it is about.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, I don't know where this is coming from. Are you saying I can't hear differences or that my gear is flawed if I report that the sounds are more alike than different? We are talking in relative terms here. Define sounding different or similar. They are both accomplished and capable cartridges and they have more in common with each other than either does with say a Benz LPS or Lyra Titan i.

The cartridges do sound different, and they are on different arms. However, they both sound good and like music to me. I thought this before the addition of the 3012R, and I think this now. Things may change if I install the MSL on the 3012R. Who knows?

These two cartridges are like two mallards. We clearly see that the male and female look different and that one is freer to fly around, but they still nest with each other and both taste good. However, upon closer scrutiny, we see that one can lay eggs and neither looks like a pigeon.

Well Peter, our mallards at the chapel demand food w menaces at 8am, destroy expensive terracotta pots, and leave their thirteen offspring w us, while they bugger off for the day.

I have NO idea what carts our mallards represent.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked, I don't know where this is coming from. Are you saying I can't hear differences or that my gear is flawed if I report that the sounds are more alike than different? We are talking in relative terms here. Define sounding different or similar. They are both accomplished and capable cartridges and they have more in common with each other than either does with say a Benz LPS or Lyra Titan i.

The cartridges do sound different, and they are on different arms. However, they both sound good and like music to me. I thought this before the addition of the 3012R, and I think this now. Things may change if I install the MSL on the 3012R. Who knows?

These two cartridges are like two mallards. We clearly see that the male and female look different and that one is freer to fly around, but they still nest with each other and both taste good. However, upon closer scrutiny, we see that one can lay eggs and neither looks like a pigeon.

They are very different carts. On same or different arms, on same or different tables.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I will say that the Master Signature sounds great in both arms in both locations, even though the outboard arm pod is a flawed approach in theory. In practice is sounds really good.

An it is what matters. Probably because the vibraplane and high mass platform are now the real suspension of your turntable and the SME30 suspension has no work to do.

IMHO we can't rely just on our fingers or eyes to know if something is vibrating or bouncing - in vinyl we are debating nanometer movements. Unless we have the proper instruments our ears can be much better tools.

 

[bazelio]

bazelio, you are really asking for a comparison between the two arms and how each one matches with these two cartridges. It is way to early for me to report on that. I am still trying to dial in and optimize the 3012R. Perhaps in time.

I will say that the Master Signature sounds great in both arms in both locations, even though the outboard arm pod is a flawed approach in theory. In practice is sounds really good.

Why is it flawed? I don't buy that.

 

[PeterA]

Why is it flawed? I don't buy that.

This subject was discussed very recently a few posts up. Basically in theory the pivot to spindle distance and relationship should be fixed. You don’t want them moving relative to each other which in theory could happen with a suspended turntable if the arm is mounted rigidly separate from the suspension.

I’m happy to report that in my particular implementation, that is in practice in my particular case, it does not seem to be an issue because the tonearm and cartridge sound excellent. I am quite pleased that I am now able to use two arms and two cartridges on a turntable that was designed for only one.

 

[bazelio]

Yes, but I believe the suspension is very non-compliant on that table, as on my Kuzma M. The movement due to suspension is far less than, say, the stylus movement across the surface of a less-than-flat record. Still, you're talking about lateral movement and I'm talking about vertical movement. But I still feel the overall delta is likely in the range of being less than our alignment accuracy capabilities. Perhaps your listening confirms this.

 

[ddk]

This subject was discussed very recently a few posts up. Basically in theory the pivot to spindle distance and relationship should be fixed. You don’t want them moving relative to each other which in theory could happen with a suspended turntable if the arm is mounted rigidly separate from the suspension.

This is Smartractor's supposition, SME's sled bases were the revolution and you move the pivot angle as needed for the correct tracking angle but I don't think this is what Micro was referring to. I believe his concern is the constant vertical and horizontal modulation of platter as a result of the suspension while the external arm base remains fixed in space unlike the plinth mounted base. I'm not familiar enough with your turntable to know how much of a problem it actually is but in practice you would have heard it if the suspension created a problem.

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is Smartractor's supposition, SME's sled bases were the revolution and you move the pivot angle as needed for the correct tracking angle but I don't think this is what Micro was referring to. I believe his concern is the constant vertical and horizontal modulation of platter as a result of the suspension while the external arm base remains fixed in space unlike the plinth mounted base. I'm not familiar enough with your turntable to know how much of a problem it actually is but in practice you would have heard it if the suspension created a problem.

david

might only be relevant at high SPL's where the arm pod base get's excited by feedback that the suspended tt does not. not so much that the platter moves, more that arm base moves......microscopically.....and not sympathetically. maybe a bit of hardness or smearing on peaks. and it's only a 'might' not a 'it will'.

 

[PeterA]

Yes, but I believe the suspension is very non-compliant on that table, as on my Kuzma M. The movement due to suspension is far less than, say, the stylus movement across the surface of a less-than-flat record. Still, you're talking about lateral movement and I'm talking about vertical movement. But I still feel the overall delta is likely in the range of being less than our alignment accuracy capabilities. Perhaps your listening confirms this.

The SME suspension is pretty non-compliant. I agree with your point about vertical movement and I made that point a few posts up by mentioning warped LPs. It is the lateral movement which may be the cause for concern because alignment/overhang can change if the pivot to spindle distance changes. This is the issue with the arm pod being moved slightly by being inadvertently pushed. The cartridge needs to be realigned at that point.

As I say, it sounds find in my implementation. No issued that I am able to identify from this rigid arm/suspended platter.

 

[PeterA]

They are very different carts. On same or different arms, on same or different tables.

Please define "different". What scale or measure of judgment are you using? Is it beyond your subjective relative notion of differences? I have described one cartridge as sounding slightly "darker" than the other, and one seems to be slightly more energetic and resolving. I agree that they are different sounding. "Very" is open to interpretation, IMO. My exposure is still limited and qualified. I will know more over time and my opinion may change.

How would you describe the "very different carts"?

 

[PeterA]

An it is what matters. Probably because the vibraplane and high mass platform are now the real suspension of your turntable and the SME30 suspension has no work to do.

IMHO we can't rely just on our fingers or eyes to know if something is vibrating or bouncing - in vinyl we are debating nanometer movements. Unless we have the proper instruments our ears can be much better tools.

Fransicsco, I do not think this is correct. The SME suspension still attempts to isolate the top chassis/platter/arm from the motor noise. The Vibraplane does not specifically address that. Yes, the Vibraplane does provide isolation for the arm pod and SME turntable system, but, as you recall, I have deflated the Vibraplane, so it is now just a massive metal support structure.

 

[jazdoc]

The SME suspension is pretty non-compliant. I agree with your point about vertical movement and I made that point a few posts up by mentioning warped LPs. It is the lateral movement which may be the cause for concern because alignment/overhang can change if the pivot to spindle distance changes. This is the issue with the arm pod being moved slightly by being inadvertently pushed. The cartridge needs to be realigned at that point.

As I say, it sounds find in my implementation. No issued that I am able to identify from this rigid arm/suspended platter.

Likely apropos to nothing, when I was choosing between Redpoint and Galibier turntables, one factor that pushed me to Galibier was the lack of separate arm pods. Fast forward 10 years later, and I'm using 40+ pound arm pods with clear improvement in sound. Not saying one way is the true religion, just another caveat that it's all about implementation.

 

[bonzo75]

Please define "different". What scale or measure of judgment are you using? Is it beyond your subjective relative notion of differences? I have described one cartridge as sounding slightly "darker" than the other, and one seems to be slightly more energetic and resolving. I agree that they are different sounding. "Very" is open to interpretation, IMO. My exposure is still limited and qualified. I will know more over time and my opinion may change.

How would you describe the "very different carts"?

This is fine, just that I don't think any setting for one (toe in, VTA, etc) will get one to sound like the other, unless one completely colors it downstream. My response started to the toe in comment

 

[microstrip]

Fransicsco, I do not think this is correct. The SME suspension still attempts to isolate the top chassis/platter/arm from the motor noise. The Vibraplane does not specifically address that. Yes, the Vibraplane does provide isolation for the arm pod and SME turntable system, but, as you recall, I have deflated the Vibraplane, so it is now just a massive metal support structure.

As far as I remember the motor noise in the SME30 is negligible - in fact the three phase electronically controlled motor is decoupled from the chassis using urethane mounts as soon as we take the transit screw away. The motor is small, but the housing is heavy ~more than 2 Kg. There were some sonic improvements when SME switched to version 2 of the controller.

PS - do not tell anyone that this motor uses encoder feedback ...

 

[ddk]

might only be relevant at high SPL's where the arm pod base get's excited by feedback that the suspended tt does not. not so much that the platter moves, more that arm base moves......microscopically.....and not sympathetically. maybe a bit of hardness or smearing on peaks. and it's only a 'might' not a 'it will'.

SPL's not going to affect 1'' thick stainless armboard and heavy stainless base, if there's any feedback the cartridge is where it will happen, SME tonearms are bulletproof when it comes to picking up airborne vibrations. Tightness of the belt, motor and bearing vibration are the first things that can activate the suspension, then come low frequencies and floor born vibrations, I have no idea how the SME plinth was designed to react. Since Peter's not hearing anything obvious or adverse as a result of the suspension, then whatever is going isn't damaging.

david

 

[KeithR]

respectfully; i don't think Peter's thread is the place to get into this. i'll only say that there are not many where it's been a negative affect of a tweak i actually used for an extended period prior to realizing it was not helping, more that a better one was found, or the hassle factor was not worth it. and importantly some tweaks i use are not necessarily relevant to other systems with the same ROI.

I would expect the opposite, hence why I asked - your room would likely expose more flaws than others.

 

[ddk]

This is fine, just that I don't think any setting for one (toe in, VTA, etc) will get one to sound like the other, unless one completely colors it downstream. My response started to the toe in comment

if VTA is off on both and adjusted selectively by music type or pressing the tendency will be to choose the same type of balance for both cartridges forcing them to sound more similar than they should be.

It's not just about toe in but speaker placement is very important, you'll lose resolution and life if the speaker setup isn't optimized so you'll end up hearing a limited output creating a bottleneck for the source equipment so you'll be unable to hear the differences that exist. Of course the bottleneck can happen anywhere in the system.

David

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I would expect the opposite, hence why I asked - your room would likely expose more flaws than others.

that cuts both ways. hearing high levels of information makes it easier to eliminate non performers, and can allow tweaks that work in my system to go further. the noise floor hiding information is less in the way. but also it's not so simple and some tweaks are not just removing distortion, they could also be enhancing (the scourge of ddk) some attribute. who is to say what is 'better'? it's more about preference and musical immersion.

doing nothing is doing nothing. but it's also assuming that all is right. is it? can it be more right? or is there a rule against that?