Sublime Sound

This is fine, just that I don't think any setting for one (toe in, VTA, etc) will get one to sound like the other, unless one completely colors it downstream. My response started to the toe in comment

And I replied that I did not expect one cartridge to ever sound like the other. Why can't you just let go, Ked? It is becoming ridiculous.

Here is my previous post, just to refresh your memory:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sublime-sound.12853/page-33#post-610719

Even a more closely aligned tonal balance would not make the cartridges sound like one another. What is so hard to understand, Ked?
 
That is fine. It did not come across in your original post. I can't let it go the same way you can't let go your repeated comments on analog and comparing bad sounding high frequencies to the real sound of brass (which doesn't hurt in the audience)
 
That is fine. It did not come across in your original post. I can't let it go the same way you can't let go your repeated comments on analog and comparing bad sounding high frequencies to the real sound of brass (which doesn't hurt in the audience)

One thing, Ked, is to have strong opinions. Another is to constantly misconstrue what others are actually saying (as you also just did in this post that I am replying to).
 
(...) As I say, it sounds find in my implementation. No issued that I am able to identify from this rigid arm/suspended platter.

IMHO unless you completely block the suspension and listen in both modes with both tonerams you will never know ...

If you find that there is no change at all you can start selling bits of the SME30/2 at eBay! :)
 
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This is Smartractor's supposition, SME's sled bases were the revolution and you move the pivot angle as needed for the correct tracking angle but I don't think this is what Micro was referring to. I believe his concern is the constant vertical and horizontal modulation of platter as a result of the suspension while the external arm base remains fixed in space unlike the plinth mounted base. I'm not familiar enough with your turntable to know how much of a problem it actually is but in practice you would have heard it if the suspension created a problem.

david

Yes, that is how I interpret Fransisco's comments as well. I think I read Fremer or someone else once stating that one of the primary functions of a turntable, besides proper speed is maintaining a fixed relationship between spindle and pivot point. I understand that the SME sled base changes this relationship during set up and that overhang is no adjusted at the headshell, but once it is aligned and locked, then the pivot to spindle relationship is indeed fixed, just like on other arm types.

I don't hear the suspension creating a problem. In fact, the 3012R/Master Sig sounded glorious last night on familiar music, better than previous times. I suppose I could lock the suspension down and the sound might change, but that would lower the platter and the arm pod might be too high. I can check it out at some later time.

Right now I'm sorting out speaker position in the room without acoustic treatment. The room sounds different, and as a result, the system sounds different, regardless of the armpod project. I want to lock in the speaker position, using both arm/cartridge combos for guidance, and then see if adding one or two acoustic treatments helps or hurts. Currently the system has not sounded better (with either arm) and this is without any treatments or pneumatic isolation. I would describe the sound at this point as the most natural, energetic (alive), and resolving that I've had in this room, and that is primarily listing to the new 3012R/Master Sig., though the other combination is also excellent.
 
if VTA is off on both and adjusted selectively by music type or pressing the tendency will be to choose the same type of balance for both cartridges forcing them to sound more similar than they should be.

It's not just about toe in but speaker placement is very important, you'll lose resolution and life if the speaker setup isn't optimized so you'll end up hearing a limited output creating a bottleneck for the source equipment so you'll be unable to hear the differences that exist. Of course the bottleneck can happen anywhere in the system.

David

David, I've never adjusted VTA selectively by music type. To me, that makes no sense. And I don't adjust for a particular balance. I adjust for what sounds most real, in terms of timbre, dynamics, and resolution. But as has been suggested, I must be doing something wrong. I'm working on it and think I made some real progress last night.
 
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David, I've never adjusted VTA selectively by music type. To me, that makes no sense.

We always adjust VTA by the music genre we want to listen to; hard rock requires heavy grunge sound, so raise the arm. You do the same for VTF, and for example, for heavy rock you need heavy VTF, on the upper part of the recommended range. For light fare, you go low. VTA also varies by latitude - it's all related to gravity's acceleration, which varies slightly from the equator to the poles. Check your local VTA/latitude map for your location; then finally adjust for time of day and daylight savings, as gravity can vary ever so slightly again depending on the sun's and moon's pull; other planets have no influence, a rather shocking fact for true audiophiles who think everything matters. Regretably, even Einstein could not predict all this.
 
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David, I've never adjusted VTA selectively by music type. To me, that makes no sense. And I don't adjust for a particular balance. I adjust for what sounds most real, in terms of timbre, dynamics, and resolution. But as has been suggested, I must be doing something wrong. I'm working on it and think I made some real progress last night.

My reply to Ked wasn't about you Peter, I was just pointing out that it's possible to come up with a homogeneous sound using VTA and speaker placement as a means to achieve that.

Yes, that is how I interpret Fransisco's comments as well. I think I read Fremer or someone else once stating that one of the primary functions of a turntable, besides proper speed is maintaining a fixed relationship between spindle and pivot point. I understand that the SME sled base changes this relationship during set up and that overhang is no adjusted at the headshell, but once it is aligned and locked, then the pivot to spindle relationship is indeed fixed, just like on other arm types.

I don't hear the suspension creating a problem. In fact, the 3012R/Master Sig sounded glorious last night on familiar music, better than previous times. I suppose I could lock the suspension down and the sound might change, but that would lower the platter and the arm pod might be too high. I can check it out at some later time.

Right now I'm sorting out speaker position in the room without acoustic treatment. The room sounds different, and as a result, the system sounds different, regardless of the armpod project. I want to lock in the speaker position, using both arm/cartridge combos for guidance, and then see if adding one or two acoustic treatments helps or hurts. Currently the system has not sounded better (with either arm) and this is without any treatments or pneumatic isolation. I would describe the sound at this point as the most natural, energetic (alive), and resolving that I've had in this room, and that is primarily listing to the new 3012R/Master Sig., though the other combination is also excellent.

With the cards you have the ability to adjust VTA is small controlled increments, you should be able to get there. With turntables you're always tuning in or tuning out something, my guess is that locking down the suspension will harden the sound. You're pretty tweak free now you should already be able to hear the effects of pneumatics and room treatments. There are a couple of other people working on their room acoustics along side you :)!

david
 
He and I were discussing how tonal balance is affected by speaker toe in. That may be part of it.

Isn't this really about the whole room-speaker-listener interface/relationship - changing toe-in changes that. Changing reflection points, moving one's ears forward or back, slumping or sitting upright. Seems like so many variables can affect tonality and tonal balance.
 
IMHO unless you completely block the suspension and listen in both modes with both tonerams you will never know ...

If you find that there is no change at all you can start selling bits of the SME30/2 at eBay! :)
Micro i think the SME 30/2 was designed for worst scenarios, suspended wood
floors in small English apartments. It has much better operating conditions at Peters’, with heavy dedicated stand, and reinforced floors.
 
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My reply to Ked wasn't about you Peter, I was just pointing out that it's possible to come up with a homogeneous sound using VTA and speaker placement as a means to achieve that.



With the cards you have the ability to adjust VTA is small controlled increments, you should be able to get there. With turntables you're always tuning in or tuning out something, my guess is that locking down the suspension will harden the sound. You're pretty tweak free now you should already be able to hear the effects of pneumatics and room treatments. There are a couple of other people working on their room acoustics along side you :)!

david

Yes, if things aren't right, homogeneity is the result.

Spot on. No tweaks now and I hear much more of what is on the records. The sound is much more open and it is easier to hear changes in speaker position and adjustments like VTA. I used two good LPs for VTA and started in 4 card increments, then 2 cards, back and forth, then one card. Playing more records and I'm wavering between one and two cards. I'll get there. I really like the precision and repeatability of this card method. I'm learning a lot.
 
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This is fascinating.

It may be here and I missed it. Peter could you list the tweaks etc you removed from your system. And then any additive changes. (Or pls point to an earlier msg.) I'm trying to get a sense of the scope of this transformation.
 
This is fascinating.

It may be here and I missed it. Peter could you list the tweaks etc you removed from your system. And then any additive changes. (Or pls point to an earlier msg.) I'm trying to get a sense of the scope of this transformation.

Tim, the list of removed items is in post #606 https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sublime-sound.12853/page-31

The additive changes are the armpod with SME 30112R, some oak footers I made at ddk's suggestion placed under the electronics and most recently under the deflated Vibraplane below my turntable. Speaker positioning has changed, and I added three of David's Ching Chang power cords.
 
Tim, the list of removed items is in post #606 https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sublime-sound.12853/page-31

The additive changes are the armpod with SME 30112R, some oak footers I made at ddk's suggestion placed under the electronics and most recently under the deflated Vibraplane below my turntable. Speaker positioning has changed, and I added three of David's Ching Chang power cords.

Thanks for that. Quite an extensive housecleaning though that may not be the best word for it. Still have the same interconnects? Was the tweak removal largely all at once or gradual step by step? If the latter, was there any special revelation along the way?
 
Thanks for that. Quite an extensive housecleaning though that may not be the best word for it. Still have the same interconnects? Was the tweak removal largely all at once or gradual step by step? If the latter, was there any special revelation along the way?

Tim, those are interesting questions and I will try to answer them as best I can. It will be good to get my thoughts down in writing.

First, I am currently using Burley Wire ICs and speaker cables, stock SME phono cables. I still have the Transparent cables and once things settle, I will get another, and perhaps more accurate, idea of what they contribute to the sound. I also tried a Zenwave IC and a power cable in the system last Summer. The cable experiments have occurred during the last year or so.

The Burley are basic cables made by a guy who works for Pass Labs. They are well made, very inexpensive, and seem to do no harm, at least in my system. In some other local systems they have not sounded as neutral. Don't know why. I like them because they are cheap and sound natural in this setting. They get the job done without adding much or anything. With the more recent changes, things are easy to hear, so the Burley may in fact be doing a good job.

Regarding the tweak removals: They were done fairly quickly over about a week long period, before the introduction of the armpod and 3012R. They were done in the following order, as far as I can remember. I listened to each for about a day (3-4 hours in the afternoon/evening) before the next removal.

1. Removal of the five Townshend Seismic Sinks from under front end components. (Phono stage, Preamp, two power supplies, Transparent power distribution box)
2. Deflation of the three Vibraplanes
3. Replace stock Pass and SME power cords with three Ching Cheng power cords
4. Removal of 2 Acoustic Revive dispersion panels
5. Removal of 4 Tube Traps
6. Removal of 2 furniture blankets
7. Addition of small oak blocks under each rack component's stock rubber footers
8. Removal of the Transparent power box
9. Addition of small oak blocks under the massive steel deflated Vibraplane/turntable assembly.

Here is what I just sent someone in a private response after he asked me about the oak footers. He wants to try them and compare to another well known very expensive audiophile brand of footers.

"I read his (ddk's) thoughts about Panzerholz and pneumatic isolation on Tango's thread and then the tweak and Panzerholz threads. I decided to remove completely my five (5) Townshend Seismic Sink air isolation platforms from my rack. David suggested in the threads that air, like plywood, robs the sound of harmonics. He was right. This is what I heard. I then decided to deflate the three (3) Vibraplanes. Same effect. More harmonics returned. But, David then told me that my birch plywood shelves in my DIY rack were robbing the sound too and that the components with their rubber footers needed to be on steel or some hardwood like oak. I had some leftover oak flooring boards from our kitchen, so I cut them into 2" x 2" x 3/4" blocks and put them under all components. Don't know if it made a difference, but perhaps slight. They are under the stock rubber footers, not the chassis.

Last night I also placed some oak under the deflated Vibraplane to get that 450 lbs mass (including turntable) off of the Vibraplane's three rubber deflated footers/bladders. That mass of steel now rests on four oak footers and that too helped solidify the sound. No harm it trying this but don't spend a lot of money."

To answer you question more precisely, I think the biggest revelations came from removing the pneumatic isolation from the system, and removing the acoustic treatments from the room. They both robbed the system of life, even though they did do some things like make the bass more contrasty and images more stark. The energy from instruments and voices, in the form of harmonics, had been reduced, but this came with what I thought was more focus and contrast. I am now starting to realize that real music is not like that. It is more dimensional, more alive, less black and white. More nuanced. Real music is clear and clean, but not stripped of information to increase contrast and vividness.

Now harmonics are more evident. The room is more filled with sound, inner detail is more clean. Resolution is improved. Timbre is more accurate. Bass is more articulate and nuanced. Voices are more present. Again, this was before the armpod and 3012R, but the addition of those moved the sound even further in this direction.

The oak blocks, Ching Cheng PCs were relatively minor, but I had already been using the Pass stock cords, and they are made by Ching Cheng too. And the oak footers were after the air platforms were already removed. I think the Transparent power box was fairly benign, actually, but I like the freed up rack space.

Now, the system is in a rather "raw" or original state. I'm hearing what the components are actually doing. I'm loving what I'm hearing. Small changes in arm set up and speaker position are now more easily identified. Speakers and tonearm are nearly set now. I plan to live with the sound for a while and listen to my record collection as a appreciate the new sound.

I hope this does not come across as hyperbolic and lacking introspection, but it is difficult to be both deliberate and reasoned while trying to contain my enthusiasm.
 
To answer you question more precisely, I think the biggest revelations came from removing the pneumatic isolation from the system, and removing the acoustic treatments from the room. They both robbed the system of life, even though they did do some things like make the bass more contrasty and images more stark. The energy from instruments and voices, in the form of harmonics, had been reduced, but this came with what I thought was more focus and contrast. I am now starting to realize that real music is not like that. It is more dimensional, more alive, less black and white. More nuanced. Real music is clear and clean, but not stripped of information to increase contrast and vividness.

Now harmonics are more evident. The room is more filled with sound, inner detail is more clean. Resolution is improved. Timbre is more accurate. Bass is more articulate and nuanced. Voices are more present. Again, this was before the armpod and 3012R, but the addition of those moved the sound even further in this direction.

Fascinating findings, especially the pneumatic platforms.
 
Fascinating findings, especially the pneumatic platforms.

Yes, indeed. I gave it a week and decided to compare it again last night. I reinflated the Vibraplane under my turntable in order to fit the oak blocks under it, but before I did so, I gave it a listen. Sure enough. The sound became more contrasty, more focused overall. The bass changed the most. This is what first attracted me to these products. However, I now realize, or think I understand what is going on here. They are dampening harmonics and stripping information leaving behind a more stark and black and white presentation. It is bolder, but less nuanced. Ultimately, I now prefer the sound without them. It is more natural, more alive, more resolved, and actually more articulate and nuanced in the bass region. The sound is also a bit less flat and more fleshed out, because it is that missing information that adds the sense of hall space and presence that real music has.

This is coming to me late, after years of focusing on and prioritizing different things. To summarize, I am slowly (perhaps suddenly) learning what "natural" really means. I was listening to "hifi" before. Of course, I'll qualify this by saying that I am only talking about this phenomenon as I observe it in my own system and not in others' or as a general rule. I don't have that experience and others may hear things differently or prioritize different attributes.
 
This is very, very, very, very, very, very, very interesting Peter!

For your system and in your room and for your ears it looks like David was approximately 100% correct.
 
This is very, very, very, very, very, very, very interesting Peter!

For your system and in your room and for your ears it looks like David was approximately 100% correct.

Perhaps he has the power of persuasion. Perhaps I am overly susceptible to being persuaded. Who knows? This has all been rather rapid. I usually do things slowly, deliberately, and methodically. This is a break from that approach. It all seems to be coming at once, but, I am dialing things in over these days, and sound is improving. In time, others will hear the results and can share their impressions.

David has a lot of experience. I have little. I am eager to learn and to improve the sound of my system/room, and the overall listening experience. We will see where things end up. This all started as an effort to optimize the potential of the armpod/3012R/Master Sig combination. David has been willing to help me toward that goal, and I appreciate it. The interesting thing is that my V-12/MSL combination is also sounding better as a collateral benefit.
 
Yes, Peter, but you have a lot of experience with your system.
 

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