I have the most experience with my own system, of course. I then have a lot of experience with three other system, the four Boston Hombres. Then I have limited experience with all the other systems heard in homes, shows, and dealers over twenty or so years, perhaps 50+ systems. All this doesn't amount to much, but it is what I have.
Sublime Sound
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I have the most experience with my own system, of course. I then have a lot of experience with three other system, the four Boston Hombres. Then I have limited experience with all the other systems heard in homes, shows, and dealers over twenty or so years, perhaps 50+ systems. All this doesn't amount to much, but it is what I have.
The necessity of room treatment will depend on the room. In my room, the sound is unworkable and unacceptable without treatment. And the issue of liveliness and energy is not that clear cut either. I have a large absorbing panel in the middle of the front wall, which is clearly a major item of room treatment. If I remove it, the images become more recessed and the soundstage deeper, which might please others but not me (my soundstage depth is already very pronounced). Yet energy also suffers without the absorbing panel, as with it the sound becomes more immediate and palpable. So clearly, room treatments do not rob my system of life, quite the contrary.
Furthermore, without room treatment I hear the room, not the recording. The acoustics of the recording venue become masked, and I cannot be transported to the illusion of a live event. In your room I did not hear that problem, but again, each room is different.
Also, don't forget that a simple carpet is also room treatment. You could try your room without carpet, and the underlying absorbing pad, but I bet you would not like the sound.
Yes David is very helpful and generous with his knowledge, both
here and pm’s. My TT Setup has taken a significant step forward by
following his online advice.
And how many if us would own
the SME 3012R without him
advocating it ?
Yes, I think it all depends on the room and the setting. Carpets, furniture and glass all have an effect, as we both have heard. I don't mean to imply my results will carry over elsewhere, nor do I want to overgeneralize. My posts in this thread are strictly about what I am hearing in my room and with my system. Sorry if I implied something else. Furthermore, I am not getting rid of anything. It is simply removed for now. My intention is to slowly reintroduce some things to observe their effect. Each item may help or hurt given what I am learning.
Peter, this is a fascinating development in yr system thread. I totally get why you're doing what you're doing. I'm a little curious as to why you think you originally preferred these tweaks/optimisations.
Eg Vibraplanes, you must have liked what you heard originally. Can you really contemplate you were snared by a particular presentation that at the time was "different" but now you conclude an impediment, or some sort of euphonic enhancement?
In my case, I turn down half the tweaks I audition, have got rid of three major levels of tweaks. Some I can't remove or A/B without like my dedicated lines/balanced transformer.
And some have been total lifelines for my system.
I will be totally intrigued if after the re introduction of tweaks you decide all/vast majority are impediments to neutrality.
Eg Vibraplanes, you must have liked what you heard originally. Can you really contemplate you were snared by a particular presentation that at the time was "different" but now you conclude an impediment, or some sort of euphonic enhancement?
In my case, I turn down half the tweaks I audition, have got rid of three major levels of tweaks. Some I can't remove or A/B without like my dedicated lines/balanced transformer.
And some have been total lifelines for my system.
I will be totally intrigued if after the re introduction of tweaks you decide all/vast majority are impediments to neutrality.
I read that Peter. If you cast your mind back to when you were incorporating them, didn't you feel they were bringing to yr system just the very things you claim you may be hearing having now subtracted them?
For me, I've got relatively wise or sensitive to tweaks. If something enhances bass, and recordings go on to be turbo charged from disc to disc, out goes the change.
If a change in effect allows every disc to sound individual, and that the merest changes in cart/arm setup is highlighted, the change stays in.
Maybe you'll find the same.
For me, I've got relatively wise or sensitive to tweaks. If something enhances bass, and recordings go on to be turbo charged from disc to disc, out goes the change.
If a change in effect allows every disc to sound individual, and that the merest changes in cart/arm setup is highlighted, the change stays in.
Maybe you'll find the same.
I think neither and what happened is that over time you became more aware of certain problems with your system sound and were ready to try a different approach. I can only point to areas that I know are problematic the rest is up to the individual, you're the one who's carrying out all the work Peter.
david
Marc, here is my earlier post. The sections highlighted in BOLD and underlined represent what I heard before and heard again last night. This is what attracted me to them originally. What I heard last night is what attracted me to them in the first place, that is, if I cast my mind back to when incorporated them. My opinion has now changed as expressed in the paragraphs below. I am sorry that I can not be more clear for you.
Yes, indeed. I gave it a week and decided to compare it again last night. I reinflated the Vibraplane under my turntable in order to fit the oak blocks under it, but before I did so, I gave it a listen. Sure enough. The sound became more contrasty, more focused overall. The bass changed the most. This is what first attracted me to these products. However, I now realize, or think I understand what is going on here. They are dampening harmonics and stripping information leaving behind a more stark and black and white presentation. It is bolder, but less nuanced. Ultimately, I now prefer the sound without them. It is more natural, more alive, more resolved, and actually more articulate and nuanced in the bass region. The sound is also a bit less flat and more fleshed out, because it is that missing information that adds the sense of hall space and presence that real music has.
This is coming to me late, after years of focusing on and prioritizing different things. To summarize, I am slowly (perhaps suddenly) learning what "natural" really means. I was listening to "hifi" before. Of course, I'll qualify this by saying that I am only talking about this phenomenon as I observe it in my own system and not in others' or as a general rule. I don't have that experience and others may hear things differently or prioritize different attributes.
Peter,
Do you have any specific explanation why the pneumatic system was blurring your sound?
The first reason I can think about is overlap of the Vibraplane resonance frequency with either a resonance of your ceiling or the turntable suspension.
No, I do not have an explanation. However, there are other data points: I only reexamined this whole idea because of a comment I read in the tweak thread, or Panzerholz thread or Tang's thread about pneumatic isolation robbing a system of harmonics. I don't remember the exact quote. This made me think of the differences I heard between Rockitman's TechDAS AF1 and his AS2000. One of the major differences is the presentation of harmonic content. So I experimented. Only after the positive result with the Sinks, did I try it with the Vibraplanes.
The effect was very similar between the two pneumatic devices. I was surprised. This suggests that it might be something other than interaction with the turntable suspension or something to do with the ceiling. Other data points: The effect also occurs when deflating the Vibraplanes under my two amplifiers. Finally, before even playing with the Vibraplanes, I took one Townshend Sink over to Al M's house to try under his preamp. Bingo, same effect, as I suspected. He was surprised and heard the same thing.
No, Fransisco, I think something else is going on, but I don't know what it is. It is possible that it simply damps the component and robs the reproduction of harmonic content, precisely as suggested in a post on the subject comparing these platforms to Panzerholz.
Now, other people may have other results or the same and prefer them. As I told Marc, I first liked the Vibraplanes because they create a more focused, bold, stark, contrasty sound, particularly in the bass region. This can be nice and different and attractive because it is a change. I'm not suggesting anyone else will have the same results and I am certainly not telling others to deflate their pneumatic isolation platforms. This is what I am hearing in my system.
The next two things I want to try are removing the Vibraplane completely from the rack, though it is now essentially a large 150lb chunk of steel, and taking the rack off of that bottom plywood slab. The original intent was to sink the rack into something stable as you can see how deep the spikes go into the slab. But also, to provide a flat and sturdy base for the rack. My old pine board floor is uneven and extremely soft. I plan to get some steel floor protectors and place the rack spikes on those.
I am also considering getting four steel slabs, one for under each Pass box.
Dear Peter,
Now I am certain that you are a very open minded person who could put his ego aside and willing to learn. I will say it is more of the learning and accepting of your new definition of "natural sound" than anything else. This realization has to happen to you yourself then you will understand why I stepped into David's approach to reproduced sound. Make no mistake this is not the so called David's Patented Natural Sound. If you hear it, can relate to it more, sound closer to what you naturally hear when you turn off your stereo, then it is the natural sound available to anyone who may appreciate it. I saw so many comments, discussions, debates went on and on just because many people never heard this type of sound and they also put their values differently. We cannot tell people to hear things. They have to hear it themself and the realization has to happen by themself. You are getting into this sound and stepping into a new path. Doubt and suspicions will be along the way. I only know this so well because I am one of the heavy weight who had all kind of super tweaks in my system. One thing I understand your mentality and adyc's mentality for sure is this approach is not making you pay more and you both are confident that you can get your original sound back whenever you want. You sure did not see I wrote any wow, any detail feedbacks of my de-tweak except for the deletion of subs that people put it on spotlight. I did not say it because I realize I am just a newbie not veteran with high credentials like many including you in this forum. What I would have said would be just a hyperbol as you mentioned. Now you are writing giving friends your feedbacks. What you wrote resembles the characters of sound I heard when I started simplifying my system. I have a feeling you and I now can relate to what we hear more and more. And in the future you will like old records more and more too.
Kind regards,
Tang
Thank you for a well done write about your recent changes. I enjoyed the read and look forward to learning more of what you discover.
Peter, are you able to isolate, and describe for us, the sound of your system with the Tube Traps and without the Tube Traps?
As you know from our side bar discussions I like Tube Traps in front corners, and, although this is purely theoretical (Kedar and Keith please look away), I like the idea of the traps absorbing reflections so they don’t bounce around those cavities on each side of the fireplace.
Theory aside, what do you think is the actual sonic effect of the Tube Traps in your system?
As you know from our side bar discussions I like Tube Traps in front corners, and, although this is purely theoretical (Kedar and Keith please look away), I like the idea of the traps absorbing reflections so they don’t bounce around those cavities on each side of the fireplace.
Theory aside, what do you think is the actual sonic effect of the Tube Traps in your system?
It’s not an interaction issue with the SME’s suspension but the nature of air and air suspension, you get the same dampening effect with your bike and car tires, air suspension is the same. Less pressure the car is bouncy and imprecise, same thing happens to your sound when the bladders are under inflated, it’s kind of muddy. Change over to sport, track or whatever the car stiffens up, road noise is more muted, thump, thump, same thing happens to your sound, it’s a bit deader but more focused and tighter but still unnatural. The main loss is in the upper bass and lower mid zone, it doesn’t flow and the tightness is totally unnatural.
david
Hi Peter,
Why oak specifically for these footers? I am curious as I have been testing different woods but wanted to know why this in your circumstance?
Hello Bill. That is a good question for David. He suggested to me that my DIY thick birch plywood shelves were dampening my components and suggested that I install some hardwood coasters between the stock rubber footers and the plywood shelves. I had some old oak flooring around, so I simply cut some up and installed it. I suppose some other hardwoods would also work. Eventually, the plan is to install 1" thick steel plates under each component, but that will take time.
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