Sublime Sound

[PeterA]

Peter, you know that there is a fool proof way of having David show up at
your doorstep

Good one Lagonda. I'm still paying outrageous tuitions for my two daughters. Were I not, I could have an AS2000, and a fleet of arms and cartridges. My wife would say something, I'm sure. It's all about abilities and priorities.

 

[Lagonda]

My best chance is Santa, i’m hanging up a big sock this year !
And having my chimney reinforced

 

[bonzo75]

Toe in will make MSL sound the vdh?

 

[ddk]

David, I have disagreed with you in the past on this subject, but I have to say, I want to believe you. I would like nothing more than to find that correct VTA for a given cartridge and then leave it alone. It seems I am unable to do this because I have found during my sessions with Al that one LP can sound just right and then another not, until I slightly raise or lower the arm. I have found this to also be the case in other systems.

So, I guess the next question is how can you teach me to find the correct VTA? Like Tango, I am humble and here to learn. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. I really want to believe what you are saying. Perhaps a trip to the Boston area is in your future, or a visit for me out West.

Unfortunately this is isn't a trick to show long distance Peter.
david

 

[ddk]

My best chance is Santa, i’m hanging up a big sock this year !
And having my chimney reinforced

Not sure if Santa can lift it on his own !

david

 

[PeterA]

Unfortunately this is isn't a trick to show long distance Peter.
david

I presumed as much, David. I'll work on getting VTA correct.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Using a fixed outboard arm with a suspended table is not ideal because the arm pivot is not rigidly fixed in space relative to the spindle. This is a well known compromise in what I am trying to do. However, the SME suspension is not "springy". I suspect that record warps and the eccentricity of the spindle hole cause greater movement in both the vertical and horizontal directions than does the movement of the platter from the suspension, in all real world scenarios. The issue in theory is that the spindle to pivot distance is not fixed. In practice, movement due to the suspension working seems imperceptible, and the arm sounds really good.

Frankly, my bigger worry is that the platter and fixed arm are isolated from the motor noise because of the suspension towers while the arm pod is not isolated from that motor. The motor sits on the lower steel chassis which rests on four ball bearings supported by a steel slab. The arm pod sits on that steel slab. That is why I designed the arm pod to be so massive. (...)

I think you are missing the main point of the problem. Just let me ask the question in another way: would you ever consider getting an SME 30 without suspension or replace the ruber O-rings with steel wires? IMHO imperceptible when we debate tens of nanometers is meaningless.

Sorry for being so analytical in your thread, but IMHO it is something that must be considered in this separate arm podquestion. I have never seen a separate armpod in a suspended turntable, but I am always interested in learning about new things.

 

[PeterA]

Toe in will make MSL sound the vdh?

Kedar, Is this a question for Al M.?

He and I were discussing how tonal balance is affected by speaker toe in. That may be part of it. I think toeing in the speakers will help the MSL sound a bit less dark, but whether that makes it sound like the vdH is another matter.

 

[PeterA]

I think you are missing the main point of the problem. Just let me ask the question in another way: would you ever consider getting an SME 30 without suspension or replace the ruber O-rings with steel wires? IMHO imperceptible when we debate tens of nanometers is meaningless.

Sorry for being so analytical in your thread, but IMHO it is something that must be considered in this separate arm podquestion. I have never seen a separate armpod in a suspended turntable, but I am always interested in learning about new things.

Fransisco, you have seen one now.

That is why I mentioned that the 3012R and the SME 30/12 is an unlikely pairing. I have acknowledged that it is not ideal for the reasons you suggest. I concede that to you. Now, where do we go from here? I plan to enjoy the sound of the 3012R on its outboard armpod, even though it is an easy target to criticise. Perhaps you should start a discussion on this topic in a new thread. I don't have anything else to add regarding my particular set up. It seems to work well enough.

 

[Al M.]

Kedar, Is this a question for Al M.?

He and I were discussing how tonal balance is affected by speaker toe in. That may be part of it. I think toeing in the speakers will help the MSL sound a bit less dark,

That was the point I was trying to make.

but whether that makes it sound like the vdH is another matter.

It won't, but I never claimed it would, unlike Ked seems to suggest.

Here is what I actually said:
"As for the tonal balance of the V-12/MSL, this possibly can be made more similar to the 3012R/vdH-MS by greater speaker toe-in."

 

[Tango]

Toe in will make MSL sound the vdh?

Your stunned face just cracked me up Bonzo.

I have to admit that Peter also surprised me saying the MSL sounded quite similar to MS. Peter has the Gold. I have the Platinum. So it is not apple to apple. Just for a datapoint, both my MSL Plat and Master Sig are on the same tt and everything else. If they do not sound different enough they wouldn't be on the same table for me. Adyc also has MSL Plat on same arm same tt. If his sound similar he should fire ddk for not doing a proper job. Peter's settings have more variable than mine. That's why he heard what he heard.

 

[bonzo75]

Peter, if this is the case you should borrow Ian's CH and Dartzeel and see if things sound more different through it

 

[KeithR]

i think this is a 'ddk-if-ication' of Peter's system to then allow each tweak to re-earn his confidence.

getting a base line. a cleansing.

check back in 6 months.

what tweaks haven't worked well in your system, Mike?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

what tweaks haven't worked well in your system, Mike?

respectfully; i don't think Peter's thread is the place to get into this. i'll only say that there are not many where it's been a negative affect of a tweak i actually used for an extended period prior to realizing it was not helping, more that a better one was found, or the hassle factor was not worth it. and importantly some tweaks i use are not necessarily relevant to other systems with the same ROI.

 

[bazelio]

Peter could you compare and contrast the MS+V12 vs MS+3012?

 

[howiebrou]

My best chance is Santa, i’m hanging up a big sock this year !
And having my chimney reinforced

 

[tima]

That's funny!

 

[Lagonda]

View attachment 59317

LOL !

 

[christoph]

My best chance is Santa, i’m hanging up a big sock this year !
And having my chimney reinforced

And better make that big sock VERY BIG and chain armoured

 

[PeterA]

Peter could you compare and contrast the MS+V12 vs MS+3012?

bazelio, you are really asking for a comparison between the two arms and how each one matches with these two cartridges. It is way to early for me to report on that. I am still trying to dial in and optimize the 3012R. Perhaps in time.

I will say that the Master Signature sounds great in both arms in both locations, even though the outboard arm pod is a flawed approach in theory. In practice is sounds really good.