Thanks for the kind words. I have a very thin IC going in front of the fireplace on the floor, but I also have holes in the floor near the rack and behind each amp for ICs for exactly this reason. Either method works. I have been playing around with cables for the last year or so but I will settle soon and probably utilize the holes to run the cables in the basement. That fireplace is inconvenient for sure, and a sonic problem, but it is there, and we enjoy it in the winter on occasion.
Sublime Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
Thanks for the kind words. I have a very thin IC going in front of the fireplace on the floor, but I also have holes in the floor near the rack and behind each amp for ICs for exactly this reason. Either method works. I have been playing around with cables for the last year or so but I will settle soon and probably utilize the holes to run the cables in the basement. That fireplace is inconvenient for sure, and a sonic problem, but it is there, and we enjoy it in the winter on occasion.
Thanks for your quick reply. For most of us there will always be "some" compromise.
I thought I would share with you some advice I received from AJ van den Hul the other day in response to my inquiry about cartridge set up. He uses an SME V arm, at least in the photos he has sent me of my Master Signature. My cartridge is back to him for its 200 hour inspection, service, and fine tuning.
He wrote me that the platter should be level. This seemed obvious and a practice I have followed for a long time. He then told me what might be obvious to others, but it was not to me. He said that it is critical for the cartridge top surface to be perfectly parallel to the record surface in two directions: one along the cantilever axis, and the other perpendicular, or 90 degrees to the cantilever axis. The former relates to VTA/SRA, the latter to azimuth.
My error is that I had been using a high quality round level to check the platter, and the tiny supplied level to check the headshell top surface. He knows I have both the SME 3012R and the SME V-12 arms. Interestingly, the 3012R headshell top surface is not parallel to the arm tube, and the V-12 arm tube is tapered, so best practice is to put the tiny level on top of the flat headshell surface.
The critical information is that the SAME tiny level should be used on top of a record, not the platter, and on top of the headshell. And both directions should be tested. I tried this with the tiny level on the record surface as parallel as I could make it to the angle on top of the headshell, placing the headshell onto the middle of the LP.
Because levels rarely match exactly, and shift as they are rotated, I spun the round level around and got the platter to what I think is fairly level as a base point. I then placed an LP on the platter and used the tiny level on the record surface. The bubble is not precisely in the center, but I tried to match its position on the LP with both the VTA and azimuth levels as judged when I place the tiny level on the headshell.
This is now a good starting point to listen and adjust by ear further if needed. It seems much more accurate than the method I had been using prior to communicating with Mr. van den Hul. I can report that the sound has improved after trying this method. The sound is cleaner, less distortion, more dynamic. There is more information. It is basically more natural sounding. AJ told me that getting the cartridge parallel to the record surface is critical for optimizing channel separation. It certainly sounds better.
The photos are simply to show the process and for illustration. They should not be used to judge the accuracy of the set up as the angles are difficult to capture with my phone camera. In person, the level readings are extremely close.
The takeaway seems to be that it is important to use the same level throughout the process, and that it should be done on the record surface, not the platter, with the stylus in the groove, lifted up just slightly to account for the 1.0g weight of the tiny level so that the cantilever or suspension does not flex and change the height of the headshell.
EDIT: This is a pretty lengthy process, but it seems to work very well as a basic and accurate base line from which one can begin listening evaluation. Minor adjustments to arm height and azimuth can follow. I use the card trick to make repeatable height adjustments with both arms, and one card may not even show up on the level.
The other interesting thing is that we hear and read about the hand built nature of these Colibri and the resulting sample to sample variance. That may be the case, I don't really know. However, Mr. van den Hul sounded so confident in his suggestion, and I was able to confirm the improved sonics by listening, that I think he pays particular attention to the mounting of the cantilever/stylus assembly into the cartridge body, so that it is very precise with a small tolerance. This is all done under extreme magnification.
Anyway, the results are positive, and fellow member Jeffrey_T also reports that his best results are when his SME headshell and Colibri are level. I don't know if he follows this precise method or not.
Thank you to Mr. AJ van den Hul for this very helpful tip in cartridge set up.
He wrote me that the platter should be level. This seemed obvious and a practice I have followed for a long time. He then told me what might be obvious to others, but it was not to me. He said that it is critical for the cartridge top surface to be perfectly parallel to the record surface in two directions: one along the cantilever axis, and the other perpendicular, or 90 degrees to the cantilever axis. The former relates to VTA/SRA, the latter to azimuth.
My error is that I had been using a high quality round level to check the platter, and the tiny supplied level to check the headshell top surface. He knows I have both the SME 3012R and the SME V-12 arms. Interestingly, the 3012R headshell top surface is not parallel to the arm tube, and the V-12 arm tube is tapered, so best practice is to put the tiny level on top of the flat headshell surface.
The critical information is that the SAME tiny level should be used on top of a record, not the platter, and on top of the headshell. And both directions should be tested. I tried this with the tiny level on the record surface as parallel as I could make it to the angle on top of the headshell, placing the headshell onto the middle of the LP.
Because levels rarely match exactly, and shift as they are rotated, I spun the round level around and got the platter to what I think is fairly level as a base point. I then placed an LP on the platter and used the tiny level on the record surface. The bubble is not precisely in the center, but I tried to match its position on the LP with both the VTA and azimuth levels as judged when I place the tiny level on the headshell.
This is now a good starting point to listen and adjust by ear further if needed. It seems much more accurate than the method I had been using prior to communicating with Mr. van den Hul. I can report that the sound has improved after trying this method. The sound is cleaner, less distortion, more dynamic. There is more information. It is basically more natural sounding. AJ told me that getting the cartridge parallel to the record surface is critical for optimizing channel separation. It certainly sounds better.
The photos are simply to show the process and for illustration. They should not be used to judge the accuracy of the set up as the angles are difficult to capture with my phone camera. In person, the level readings are extremely close.
The takeaway seems to be that it is important to use the same level throughout the process, and that it should be done on the record surface, not the platter, with the stylus in the groove, lifted up just slightly to account for the 1.0g weight of the tiny level so that the cantilever or suspension does not flex and change the height of the headshell.
EDIT: This is a pretty lengthy process, but it seems to work very well as a basic and accurate base line from which one can begin listening evaluation. Minor adjustments to arm height and azimuth can follow. I use the card trick to make repeatable height adjustments with both arms, and one card may not even show up on the level.
The other interesting thing is that we hear and read about the hand built nature of these Colibri and the resulting sample to sample variance. That may be the case, I don't really know. However, Mr. van den Hul sounded so confident in his suggestion, and I was able to confirm the improved sonics by listening, that I think he pays particular attention to the mounting of the cantilever/stylus assembly into the cartridge body, so that it is very precise with a small tolerance. This is all done under extreme magnification.
Anyway, the results are positive, and fellow member Jeffrey_T also reports that his best results are when his SME headshell and Colibri are level. I don't know if he follows this precise method or not.
Thank you to Mr. AJ van den Hul for this very helpful tip in cartridge set up.
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It already has Marc, in a big way. And perhaps even more with self-quarantining.
I'm just an old guy learning how to improve an even older technology. I thought I was fairly good at cartridge set up, but I continue to understand just how much I have still to learn. It helps to be willing to put in the effort. The reward of improved sonics is well worth it.
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Peter, I don't think there is anything new here wrt bubble leveler. The approach you outline assures that the armwand is effectively parallel to the LP when the stylus is in the groove. However, this also says, do not raise or lower the arm for SRA. Moreover, I've always found the bubble-leveler approach fundamentally flawed, because its own weight skews things significantly.
You need a level with higher resolution to see the difference of one card. Mid and lower end bubble levels have large tolerance you'd be hard pressed to get two that match, that's why he says stick to one at least you get two parallel planes this way.
david
Yes indeed Tasos. I am not claiming there’s anything new here.
I wrote that you have to lift it slightly so the stylus is just touching the LP surface so the weight of the level does not in fact skew the results. I thought I was clear in my post about that.
This is a starting point before adjustments by listening. And as I wrote, this is probably obvious to everyone else but it was not obvious to me which is why I shared what I did in the hope that my cluelessness might help someone else. LOL.
People assume a lot of things but there isn’t a lot written in the forums about how to do any of this. If it is old news than I’m sorry for wasting your time.
Finally, another important take away for me is that it has nothing to do with the arm wand as you suggest. The arm wand for the contemporary arm is tapered so it is not parallel to the head shell surface. And the arm tube of the 3012 is for some reason not parallel to the top surface of the detachable headshell.
So as Mr. van den Hul suggested, everything should be referenced to the top of the head shell not to the arm tube.
This information is specific to the VDH cartridge and my two SME tonearms. I do not know how applicable it is to other cartridge and tonearm combinations.
I wrote that you have to lift it slightly so the stylus is just touching the LP surface so the weight of the level does not in fact skew the results. I thought I was clear in my post about that.
This is a starting point before adjustments by listening. And as I wrote, this is probably obvious to everyone else but it was not obvious to me which is why I shared what I did in the hope that my cluelessness might help someone else. LOL.
People assume a lot of things but there isn’t a lot written in the forums about how to do any of this. If it is old news than I’m sorry for wasting your time.
Finally, another important take away for me is that it has nothing to do with the arm wand as you suggest. The arm wand for the contemporary arm is tapered so it is not parallel to the head shell surface. And the arm tube of the 3012 is for some reason not parallel to the top surface of the detachable headshell.
So as Mr. van den Hul suggested, everything should be referenced to the top of the head shell not to the arm tube.
This information is specific to the VDH cartridge and my two SME tonearms. I do not know how applicable it is to other cartridge and tonearm combinations.
I don't know of any high resolution ones that small to fit on the headshell but Wyler makes small ones if you need them.
https://www.wylerag.com/en/products/high-precision-spirit-levels/circular-spirit-levels-73/
david
You are right, but in fact they are very easy to check - rotate it by 180º and see if the bubble shows exactly in the same relative place. For another application sometimes I have to test a few tens before I get one that pleases me ... Beware that the shop keeper will not be pleased with such approach!
Yes It all seems pretty obvious indeed. It is why SME puts horizontal lines on the V arm and it must be why vdH told me to raise the 3012 up about 7mm in the back to make the cartridge level.
I did not know it is old news to not use a tiny level because it skews the results because it is too heavy. But I do lift the arm very slightly with the arm lift to not tilt the cantilever too much.
I welcome any better methods that you might suggest. I’m just glad I learned this from vdH the other day.
Turntables and tonearms are ancient tech and everything to know about them is already out there but it doesn’t mean that everyone knows it.
david
Yes and that is why we have discussions on these forums about cartridge set up and why Jonathan Valin hires Audre Jennings to set up his cartridges. And it is why you just flew to Los Angeles to set up a cartridge for someone.
All of this is fairly straightforward and understood. However in a world where the dealerships are disappearing and a few dealers know how to properly set up a cartridge, enthusiasts such as myself try to teach themselves and learn what they can along the way.
I’m simply trying to pass along a tip I learned from a cartridge manufacturer which seems to be very helpful.
I've heard of using a laser level to get the arm and/or headshell parallel to the platter.
Speculation: if you can measure the height of the cartridge as it sits on a record, from platter to bottom of headshell, maybe you could make a wood? block of those dimensions then attach that to the headshell. Then use a high resolution level whose weight would not matter. You might not even need the level. This is a take-off on the Wally VTA device.
Wally VTA - Shims of different thickness can be added to obtain the appropriate height.
I'd love to see offer a similar device.
Thanks Tim. I find posting photos with the text to be very helpful. It'd be great if cartridge manufacturers included such tools with their products.
This tool looks like it would be very useful and much easier than trying to level painted lines on an arm tube. More importantly, it is specific to a cartridge and works at the most appropriate surface - the underside of the headshell where the cartridge is mounted. Once the cartridge is level, than fine tuning by ear can take place. This seems like a nice short cut and more accurate that other methods.
Years ago, when I got back into the hobby and decided to go with vinyl, the small dealer I used told me that in his opinion, only two dealers in Massachusetts could properly set up a cartridge. That was in about 2005. Then he said that he was about to retire. Yikes, I tried to learn what I could from the guy.
So this old news may be something older guys fully understand, but how will new vinyl hobbyists learn how to do it if the dealers disappear? Goodwin's in Boston has one vinyl set up guy. I don't know how good he is. A friend up in Maine just bought a new Technics DD table after not owning vinyl since college. He is in his mid 50s. His dealer in New Hampshire set up the cartridge in the arm on the table and he drove home with it. It sounded fine, but after talking to him about it for a while, he was able to improve the sound by fine tuning the set up. Now he is really happy with the sound, and he was an only digital guy for years.
I do not think this stuff is well understood and I think the sharing of good advice will be appreciated by those who are less experienced. I know that I learned something from Mr. van den Hul. And your post has some nice ideas. DDK's card tip is also very useful, and now owning a 3012R, I am hard pressed to suggest anything better than the card tip.
If the hobby is interested in attracting younger vinyl listeners, we should all welcome the sharing of good set up advice, and even repost it for those, such as myself, who still have much to learn.
This tool looks like it would be very useful and much easier than trying to level painted lines on an arm tube. More importantly, it is specific to a cartridge and works at the most appropriate surface - the underside of the headshell where the cartridge is mounted. Once the cartridge is level, than fine tuning by ear can take place. This seems like a nice short cut and more accurate that other methods.
Years ago, when I got back into the hobby and decided to go with vinyl, the small dealer I used told me that in his opinion, only two dealers in Massachusetts could properly set up a cartridge. That was in about 2005. Then he said that he was about to retire. Yikes, I tried to learn what I could from the guy.
So this old news may be something older guys fully understand, but how will new vinyl hobbyists learn how to do it if the dealers disappear? Goodwin's in Boston has one vinyl set up guy. I don't know how good he is. A friend up in Maine just bought a new Technics DD table after not owning vinyl since college. He is in his mid 50s. His dealer in New Hampshire set up the cartridge in the arm on the table and he drove home with it. It sounded fine, but after talking to him about it for a while, he was able to improve the sound by fine tuning the set up. Now he is really happy with the sound, and he was an only digital guy for years.
I do not think this stuff is well understood and I think the sharing of good advice will be appreciated by those who are less experienced. I know that I learned something from Mr. van den Hul. And your post has some nice ideas. DDK's card tip is also very useful, and now owning a 3012R, I am hard pressed to suggest anything better than the card tip.
If the hobby is interested in attracting younger vinyl listeners, we should all welcome the sharing of good set up advice, and even repost it for those, such as myself, who still have much to learn.
I remember using cards for setting and remembering VTA on my Sumiko Premier MMT back in the previous century. What today may be considered arcane was at one time fairly common knowledge. There has been considerable advance in table-arm-cartridge setup tools in the past 25-30 years. Wally Malewicz was one of the pioneers in making simple tools and he did so more out of a desire to share information about the importance of this or that tuning parameter than he did to make money. Far more of an engineer that an adept businessman, he'd talk at length over the phone, even describing how to make his tools instead of trying to sell you one.
The decline in brick n mortar dealers overlapped the rise of the internet and the Web. (There's a master's thesis in business or sociology for someone.) What had been personable turned less so. (Vinyl requires setup whereas the CD was plug n play.) There used to be more interest in sharing information and less inclination to monetize it and what used to be the hobbyist has turned into the consumer. But I certainly can't fault those few who can make a living as 'professional setup men' - particularly those willing to teach their clients - knowledge is valuable and time is money, etc.etc. In practical terms vinyl needs their assets.
Although it may be thinner, nonetheless a layer of hobbyists remains. Sharing knowledge and a willingness to tinker have always been critical to any hobby. It's why I talk about the vinyl lifestyle. No doubt there is some of that in the digital world now we have gotten past CDs. More people understand more about computers than they do vinyl setup. Video brings an expanded playing field for the digerati and that makes for a broader sustaining audience.
Of course we vinylists, we newtonian hobbyists, must be willing to share what we know. Welcome and encourage sharing. Right now I think we have it pretty good, but it's not an end point. Living la vida vinyl.
It is all relative for a starting point. I use a laser level to get in the ball park - Brinkmann supplies a machined jig to get you to the same relative space.
After relative position it is incremental VTA and then of course azimuth. All interactive and iterative.
After relative position it is incremental VTA and then of course azimuth. All interactive and iterative.
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