Sublime Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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Thank you. I edited my post. Do you notice a difference after you have tightened the rods?
Here is a photo I just took. I find it a bit ironic because it shows both the 3012 and the 30/12 and this combination was never meant to be used together. I have often wondered why SME when developing the Model 30 turntable did not simply adjust the dimensions and position the arm board to accommodate their 30XX arms which were selling at the time. Member 1080CY did request a custom designed Model 20/12 turntable with the armboard moved slightly so that a 3012R arm could clear the suspension tower. I've seen photos, so I know this was possible.
It is clear to me that they could have given customers the option, but they chose not to. They must have tailored the design to emphasis the new V model tonearm with its more modern features and design. It was introduced as a package, an integrated design. Perhaps it was a marketing or business decision. Perhaps dealers requested a new arm to increase sales. I don't really know, but I do like the photo.
It is clear to me that they could have given customers the option, but they chose not to. They must have tailored the design to emphasis the new V model tonearm with its more modern features and design. It was introduced as a package, an integrated design. Perhaps it was a marketing or business decision. Perhaps dealers requested a new arm to increase sales. I don't really know, but I do like the photo.
It is certainly possible, David. One would need to know if they started developing the V arm or the Model 30 turntable first. Perhaps both were mistakes 
, but the guys I spoke to there told me they prefer the V-12 arm. I really like them both and find them very similar sounding. I plan to switch cartridges on the arms and mount both arms on the armpod to do a more rigorous comparison some day. In the meantime, I'm just letting the system settle.
I have to wonder why SME developed a modern variant of the 3012R rather than just reproducing that 3012R masterpiece exactly the same. Surely, they could have done that, and right now, it is not so easy to find a good condition 3012R as Jeffrey_T and I have been discussing. I think people would easily spend between $3-5K or more for a new, sonically and physically identical arm. And they could even make them in black for something really, really cool. I wish they would, but alas, they are deciding not too, and are getting out of making and selling arms separately. It's a shame.
EDIT: Just read the 3012 "R" version was launched in 1980. The V arm was launched in 1986, the Model 30 turntable was launched in 1991. The V arm came five years before the table. It seems they could have designed the table to accommodate both the 3009 and the V arms, but chose not to for some reason. It's too bad. I also wish they would have designed the table to accommodate two arms, but that is more complicated. One could certainly have wanted two of "the best pick up arms in the world" on the same table, both being the same model, or one of each series of arms. They must have assumed people would only want their latest V arm. Well, there seems to be demand for this now, and also for the vintage arms.
, but the guys I spoke to there told me they prefer the V-12 arm. I really like them both and find them very similar sounding. I plan to switch cartridges on the arms and mount both arms on the armpod to do a more rigorous comparison some day. In the meantime, I'm just letting the system settle.I have to wonder why SME developed a modern variant of the 3012R rather than just reproducing that 3012R masterpiece exactly the same. Surely, they could have done that, and right now, it is not so easy to find a good condition 3012R as Jeffrey_T and I have been discussing. I think people would easily spend between $3-5K or more for a new, sonically and physically identical arm. And they could even make them in black for something really, really cool. I wish they would, but alas, they are deciding not too, and are getting out of making and selling arms separately. It's a shame.
EDIT: Just read the 3012 "R" version was launched in 1980. The V arm was launched in 1986, the Model 30 turntable was launched in 1991. The V arm came five years before the table. It seems they could have designed the table to accommodate both the 3009 and the V arms, but chose not to for some reason. It's too bad. I also wish they would have designed the table to accommodate two arms, but that is more complicated. One could certainly have wanted two of "the best pick up arms in the world" on the same table, both being the same model, or one of each series of arms. They must have assumed people would only want their latest V arm. Well, there seems to be demand for this now, and also for the vintage arms.
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Listening impressions of AJ vdH's latest Colibri Grand Cru posted here:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/van-den-hul-colibri-grand-cru.30507/#post-644605
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/van-den-hul-colibri-grand-cru.30507/#post-644605
Dear Peter,
I just realized I have a question from many months ago. Your SME turntable has an integrated rubber cord suspension.
What prompted you to rest the turntable on a pneumatic Vibraplane in the first place? Why did you think you wanted to place a suspended turntable on an air-inflated platform?
I just realized I have a question from many months ago. Your SME turntable has an integrated rubber cord suspension.
What prompted you to rest the turntable on a pneumatic Vibraplane in the first place? Why did you think you wanted to place a suspended turntable on an air-inflated platform?
Hello Ron,
Thank you for the question. The removal of my three Vibraplanes from my system was a less easy decision that it was to initially install them. I addressed this subject in post #805 here:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sublime-sound.12853/page-41
Basically, I first experimented with Townshend Seismic Sinks and then moved up to Vibraplanes. I initially had each under my SME Model 10 unsuspended turntable after first placing that table on the top shelf of my Zoethecus rack and then adding a massive Mapleshade butcher block platform on very heavy brass footers. Each iteration was in improvement in sonics, or so I thought. I have since come to realize that I was hearing lower noise leading to starker images and more impactful and impressive sound, while at the same time losing that sense of music being "alive". I was losing harmonic content while images became bolder and bass became tighter.
All along the sound became more "hifi" sounding and less "natural". I preferred that sound for years but gradually started to realize that this was a never ending pursuit to get hyped detail. The more I listened to live acoustic music, the more I realized I was moving in the wrong direction. DDK encouraged me to take a fresh approach and see where it would lead me. That approach started with the gradual removal of accessories from my system and room.
To answer you question specifically, the Vibraplane under the suspended 30/12 sounded "cleaner" and starker with tighter, bolder bass performance. I suspect the suspension towers work at a higher frequency and the Vibraplane worked at lower frequencies. I have come to realize that the pneumatic isolation was dampening the sound too much, so I removed it from the table and the rest of the system.
Here are some photos showing the evolution of turntable supports:
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Thank you very much Peter for your comprehensive, extremely informative, detailed and understandable reply! I appreciate it!
(It is obvious to me why people with suspension-less turntables (e.g., NVS, Brinkmann) may consider active and passive platforms, but it was never obvious to me why people with suspended turntables (e.g., SME, Basis, VPI) also consider active and passive platforms.)
(It is obvious to me why people with suspension-less turntables (e.g., NVS, Brinkmann) may consider active and passive platforms, but it was never obvious to me why people with suspended turntables (e.g., SME, Basis, VPI) also consider active and passive platforms.)
Ron, I think some people would prefer the isolation, because it does make the backgrounds blacker, and the sound more exciting, in a hyped up way. Stark images, bold sound. I get that. Heck, I preferred that for years. Tang wrote about that in his wonderful "looking glass" or "glass ball" analogy. It is entertaining. One is peering into something artificial and revelling at the information and details, the magic of it all. But Alice doesn't live here anymore.
I now read some audio marketing prose and can see what they are selling. I bought into that. My approach has simply changed.
I can't shake this though, pardon the pun:
I now read some audio marketing prose and can see what they are selling. I bought into that. My approach has simply changed.
I can't shake this though, pardon the pun:
i think what might be interesting would be to try the Stacore compared to the Vibraplane. and there is the Stacore, and Stacore +.
might the additional refinement of the Stacore product over the more basic approach of the Vibraplane tip the balance of net musical performance back toward the air suspension approach compared to the steel plate/rubber gasket approach? even considering your fresh musical compass?
i don't know the answer and my question is not inferring anything. i would simply be curious about it. full disclosure; i'm contemplating the Stacore (the + won't handle the weight) for my CS Port LFT1. and so am curious for myself.
might the additional refinement of the Stacore product over the more basic approach of the Vibraplane tip the balance of net musical performance back toward the air suspension approach compared to the steel plate/rubber gasket approach? even considering your fresh musical compass?
i don't know the answer and my question is not inferring anything. i would simply be curious about it. full disclosure; i'm contemplating the Stacore (the + won't handle the weight) for my CS Port LFT1. and so am curious for myself.
Good question Mike. I have no idea. Sure, I'd try it to see, but as you sometimes write, I don't need to "scratch that itch". The interesting thing is that the Vibraplanes can be tuned depending on the pressure one inflates it at, and the loading. I never experimented much.
I do think it would be interesting to see how such a device would sound compared to your active isolation platform under the same table. However, these might be unique results dependent on implementation or drive type. Perhaps comparing them under a preamp or phono stage would be more revealing as isolation technology. Different requirements at play under moving turntables, is my guess. What prompts you to try it under your CS Port?
I do think it would be interesting to see how such a device would sound compared to your active isolation platform under the same table. However, these might be unique results dependent on implementation or drive type. Perhaps comparing them under a preamp or phono stage would be more revealing as isolation technology. Different requirements at play under moving turntables, is my guess. What prompts you to try it under your CS Port?
Mainly because the platforms isolate in a range of frequencies that suspended turntables fail to isolate. Isolation platforms typically isolate down to 2 Hz.
Mike, I can totally vouch for the Stacore. It is phenomenal piece of kit, and really confounded my expectations.
when i play my NVS with the Tana active beneath it, and play the CS Port LFT1 with the solid slate beneath it, i can hear the added precision that the active brings. it's subtle but unmistakable. properly executed active does not soften or boost any frequencies or rob harmonic structure, it allows the resonance to be attenuated which leaves more musical information. more touch and nuance to the music. more ease. and added micro-dynamic life.
would really refined passive such as the Stacore, add something without adding the wrong things? i don't really know.
i'd try active with the CS Port, but like any thread drive belt it's going to have some self noise which would eliminate it from active consideration.
the CS Port, unless you had another tt next to it with active, would never seem to be wanting. and the CS Port is such an ultra detailed turntable, that if i could find a little more precision, i think it would really pop out in a good way. not sure i will ever try it. as i would need a custom built size Stacore that would fit the footprint. but a Stacore compare with the Vibraplane (by a super attentive user like yourself) might tip me over to give it a try.
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Thank you Mike for considering us! If our Basic+ won't handle the weight (it has 160kg max load capability), we can design a custom platform with almost any load capability needed.
Cheers,
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