Sublime Sound

[bonzo75]

One more data point. You can see the range of tables posted here, heard just before lockdown.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/decisions.30056/#post-628762

In this system, the owner has been rotating his arms and carts. When I was there, I most preferred his lowest price table, the Avid lowest model, which had SME V and the vdh Stradivarius on it. I couldn't isolate anything, but at that time he mentioned that what I was liking was the SME V vdh combo, and pretty much whatever table he puts it on sounds the best

 

[PeterA]

What a great post, Ked. This all makes sense to me. Btw, what does LT mean?

I do find that Pass electronics have a slight metallic or gray house sound and perhaps when combined with the vdH I hear this character more. I do feel that with a more colorful valve sound the vdH would be more balanced. But this is how I hear it.. with MY notion of what natural music sounds like and my experience with both valves and solid state gear. Peter wouldn't agree and that's part of what makes this hobby interesting.

LT is linear tracker.

Nice post, Ian. You are right. I think we do hear differently or at least have different preferences. For instance my favorite combination of electronics in your system over all the years has been the Pass XS suite. You obviously moved on from there and are still trying different tube and SS preamps to find the most pleasing balance for your taste.

 

[ddk]

Before the lamm gear, with the Ayon.

When I refer to Midbass I refer to weight range. Not related to vdh, that includes cello, baritone chest, lower ranges of brass and piano. Bottom range of the Midbass range would be slams, from tympani and drums.

I am not saying vdh has issues across all that range, but usually it's in weight, and cello. Tympani is fast and tight, but the weight is slightly less.

In terms is frequency range it would probably end around 80 Hz

Weight wasn’t an issue with vdH, if you get a chance hear it again with Lamms and full range speakers. Some of that lightness at Tang’s aside from the Ayons was because we had to take the subs out. The current Master Sig with new magnets and windings are the slam King!

david

 

[PeterA]

One more data point. You can see the range of tables posted here, heard just before lockdown.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/decisions.30056/#post-628762

In this system, the owner has been rotating his arms and carts. When I was there, I most preferred his lowest price table, the Avid lowest model, which had SME V and the vdh Stradivarius on it. I couldn't isolate anything, but at that time he mentioned that what I was liking was the SME V vdh combo, and pretty much whatever table he puts it on sounds the best

The vdH is voiced on the SME V so that makes complete sense. Appearantly the MSL was also voiced on that SME arm. My audio mentor who sold me both my MSL and gave me my first Colibri has an SME Model 30/12 table and supplied the musicians in Vienna with SME tables. ARA loved opera.

 

[Al M.]

Al, I agree. There were no relative weaknesses in those areas with the vdH/3012R, but it seems Kedar points to those areas as potential issues for the vdH. I don’t quite understand that.

Forgetting about the the vdH for a moment, what weaknesses did you hear with the MSL and how would you describe the sound of that MSL/V-12 combination relative to what you hear in you digital system on the same music?

I heard few weaknesses, Peter. In general I would say that the sound of your system with the MSL and my own system are relatively comparable. While some of the sounds on my system are still harder, as I prefer it within the soft/hard range of what is natural, I did not hear a pervasive unnatural softness in your system as has been suggested might be a signature of the MSL. As you probably are aware, I have made my complaints about a too polite sound from high end systems clear on WBF on a recurring basis. So I am very critical when it comes to softness and politeness, yet I heard no obvious problems in that regard (I have not heard the Janaki string trio yet in the current configuration of your system, which should be an interesting data point).

As I described, your sound has more subjective HF extension and "air". On the other hand, mine has more LF extension, which is no surprise given that I have subwoofers.

Very few multi-way floorstanders are full range speakers, even though this type of speaker is usually advertised and described as such. Big speaker systems with integrated bass towers obviously are, and a speaker like the Magico M9 may be as well. My sound is not full range either in terms of LF extension, since I have curtailed that on my subwoofers, with the thankfully provided adjustability, in order not to overload my room. In general you probably would need a considerably bigger room and larger subwoofers to be really full range in that respect.

***

As for the previous sound of your MSL cartridge, I said in my post from two days ago that I don't remember having heard it around the time Ack and VLS were visiting a few months ago. Yet now I remember that I did (at a minimum on Count Basie's 88th Street). It sounded indeed euphonic and colored back then, and with limited HF extension, and I can see why you didn't like it that much either. I assume there was an issue with setup/alignment, since I had heard it sound better before. And as I said, I heard none of these problems a few days ago. The cartridge sounded quite linear to me, and clearly the best I have heard, no surprise also given the general progress of your system.

 

[Al M.]

As for progress of your system, Peter, I should also mention that your soundstage is now much larger, wider and deeper on suitable material, such as Cantate Domino with the choir and organ in that church acoustic.

I was really captivated by the experience!

 

[bonzo75]

As for progress of your system, Peter, I should also mention that your soundstage is now much larger, wider and deeper on suitable material, such as Cantate Domino with the choir and organ in that church acoustic.

I was really captivated by the experience!

Cantate Domino on vdh

 

[microstrip]

(...) Presence has some ambiguity as it is used in audiophilery. Some refer to a 'presence region' usually the upper mid-range, lower treble. The other usage is the one I prefer and which I think you're using. The score says nothing about presence. It is both a psycho-acoustic characteristic and a reality. It is, to me anyway, very real in the concert hall and most live venues.

Presence is the energy in the air that occurs when music is played and can sometimes be enhanced in virtue of a live audience who bring their own energies. It is 'sensed' or 'felt' more so than heard. Sometimes in big orchestral works you can see the energy in the form of the musicians making the music, the work as it were sometimes coupled with a sense of joy. In audio rooms presence is psycho-acoustic, a reaction on our part - in our mind - to what we hear. It also comes from our ability to locate sounds in space - back and side wall reflections, the 'harmonic cloud or shimmer' rising above a group of musicians playing - especially a full orchestra. The latter certainly is musical energy or a product of energy. So I, like maybe you, consider presence as a necessary condition of "natural".

I see "natural" as a shorthand way of referring to these characteristics as well as an expression of their synthesis - the listening to the whole. Take any one away and natural falls apart. While we each have our own perceptions and we each get to be the ultimate judge about what we hear and gauge whether it is natural or not, I don't think it is an entirely subjective notion in as much as we can point to it in the concert hall. Through and because of reproduction we won't achieve that same experience but "natural", for those of us who choose it, can be our guide.

Tim,

Excellent analysis of presence - I usually consider it in the sense you refer, as the type of music I listen mostly needs it. IMHO the concept of energy is an excellent way of addressing the stereo sound I like.

However, the more I read in WBF concerning "natural" the more I see that it had become a meaningless subjective qualifier, becoming a synonym of "my preference" or "our group preference" anchored in my (or our) own perception of how live music sounds.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Very few multi-way floorstanders are full range speakers, even though this type of speaker is usually advertised and described as such (...)

What is your definition of "full range speaker"? IMHO many, perhaps even most multi-way floorstanders are full range speakers if we have an adequate size room and do not listen to electronic music or a high sound levels.

 

[microstrip]

(...) ARA loved opera.

Played through modified QUAD electrostatic speakers in very large room. I think you will appreciate seeing how they were positioned! I have played with a similar disposition long ago, and as soon as I get a room wide enough again I will return to this four ESL63 experience - chamber music sounded terrific with it.

 

[MadFloyd]

Cello and low register on piano were strong on the vdH. That was not the problem. Low brass was also rather good.

Good to hear that, given your own experiences, you were not surprised by Ian's and my impressions of the vdH cartridge.

Well here's where we differ, Al. To me the vdH was missing weight in the lower registers.

 

[PeterA]

As for progress of your system, Peter, I should also mention that your soundstage is now much larger, wider and deeper on suitable material, such as Cantate Domino with the choir and organ in that church acoustic.

I was really captivated by the experience!

Thank you and I agree with that Al. We did hear Cantata Domino on the vdH/3012R though that area of improvement is also evident with the MSL/V-12 on that recording and others. It is the inner openness and energy that I find so natural with the vdH/3012R.

 

[Al M.]

What is your definition of "full range speaker"? IMHO many, perhaps even most multi-way floorstanders are full range speakers if we have an adequate size room and do not listen to electronic music or a high sound levels.

Well, you have just contradicted yourself with a qualifier. I think that alone makes expansion on the topic unnecessary on my part.

 

[Al M.]

Well here's where we differ, Al. To me the vdH was missing weight in the lower registers.

Ok, I'd have to check this out further in the future to either confirm or revise my impressions.

 

[Al M.]

What is your definition of "full range speaker"? IMHO many, perhaps even most multi-way floorstanders are full range speakers if we have an adequate size room and do not listen to electronic music or a high sound levels.

BTW, electronic music sounds great on my system. But then, I have subwoofers .

 

[bonzo75]

However, the more I read in WBF concerning "natural" the more I see that it had become a meaningless subjective qualifier, becoming a synonym of "my preference" or "our group preference" anchored in my (or our) own perception of how live music sounds.

When was it ever in debate that natural, or real, is not used to describe closeness to live music... And yes, everything is in the perception of the writer/listener

 

[bonzo75]

Btw, I have never used the term presence to relate to music/gear and am not clear what people are actually trying to communicate when they say presence region. Doesn't make sense to me

 

[tima]

Did you move from the AR phono to the Lamm phono?

I had the LP 2.1 phono here for review and it is now returned. The LP1 Signature phono should be here in a few weeks for its review. I also have the L2.1 Reference preamp here for a visit and review after the LP1 Sig. Along with my M1.2 amps I had the opportunity to hear the vdH MS through an all Lamm system. I don't want to say too much pending publication.

 

[tima]

However, the more I read in WBF concerning "natural" the more I see that it had become a meaningless subjective qualifier, becoming a synonym of "my preference" or "our group preference" anchored in my (or our) own perception of how live music sounds.

Only if you let it.

We read posts and find all sorts of language used by various commentators with varying degrees of consistency and comprehensibility. If one has a well thought out meaning for words they choose, it's unusual not to have defend one's vocabulary to avoid it being co-opted and trivialized. The "we all hear differently so do our words" subjectivists can turn talk to mush. Stand your ground!

 

[tima]

Btw, I have never used the term presence to relate to music/gear and am not clear what people are actually trying to communicate when they say presence region. Doesn't make sense to me

Presence region. Certain review writers use it - I'm vaguely thinking I see that more in TAS (Harley? Jennings?). Without a definition I didn't know what it meant. There are plenty of descriptives available for spelling out the, uh, non-regional meaning. I knew immediately what Peter meant though it's not as common in the lexicon.