Sublime Sound

[Blue58]

Btw, I have never used the term presence to relate to music/gear and am not clear what people are actually trying to communicate when they say presence region. Doesn't make sense to me

The ability of sound to project a solid object. Some systems do great transparency and holography while some project physicality, a presence. Think Sassy in the room able to touch and walk around opposed to Sassy in the room as hologram able to walk through. It’s important to me.

 

[bonzo75]

The ability of sound to project a solid object. Some systems do great transparency and holography while some project physicality, a presence. Think Sassy in the room able to touch and walk around opposed to Sassy in the room as hologram able to walk through. It’s important to me.

Ok, so palpable?

I don't see the transparency and the ability to touch the object as mutually exclusive.

Also, my main problem is that it is too broad. All some reviewers used "presence region", which made me think they are referring to a specific frequency range that is important for the feeling of presence.

Just saying presence, can mean that energy, solid imaging, holography as the way you used it, any of these can be used, and is different from "presence region"

 

[bonzo75]

Your description also made me interpret, perhaps incorrectly, that the singer was present in my room rather than me present at the venue. That's why it is a broad confusing word

 

[Blue58]

Your description also made me interpret, perhaps incorrectly, that the singer was present in my room rather than me present at the venue. That's why it is a broad confusing word

Agree, palpable is a better word to use and I don’t know what presence region is either. As for being there or here, how about something that transcends both. Now what word could we use for that, trans-auditory ?
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2017.00351/full

 

[Tango]

Some people use too much brain hearing sound and scrutinize too much of everything. Presence is just presence. You could hear and you could feel otherwise your brain wont be triggered to come up with the word "presence" to describe the sensation. My secretary knows no audiophile vocab yet she used the word presence to describe sound to me once. So no need to act like such a guru that can no longer use a simple word such as "presence" or "natural" to describe sound.

 

[bonzo75]

Natural is easy. Presence is more complicated because of the term presence region

 

[Tango]

Natural is easy. Presence is more complicated because of the term presence region

You tell Gian and ddk to stop using the word "natural" and you will never hear them make any comment on gears again.

 

[bonzo75]

You tell Gian and ddk to stop using the word "natural" and you will never hear them make any comment on gears again.

We are not referring to natural. We are referring to presence. Totally different.

 

[bonzo75]

Tang, in case you are not following this is what some googling gives you

"
What does it do? Well, it controls “presence", which boosts upper-mid and treble frequencies in a specific manner that makes the tone sound notably livelier; a little “wilder” than normal. The quality of this livelier, wilder tone is typically described as being more “present,” thus the name.

Saying that the upper-mid and treble frequencies become more present doesn’t exactly mean they become “louder” in the sense that an amp’s volume control affects all frequencies evenly. Nor does the presence control affect the tone in the same manner as the amp’s “mid” and “treble” tone controls.

To explain what a presence control does in greater detail, let us note a fundamental basic of amplifier design. Namely, that an amp consists of at least two “sections”—a preamp stage and a power amp stage. The preamp stage comes first and is where most of the tone shaping happens; the power amp stage comes second and provides the muscle that blasts your sound out into the world and makes the neighbors call the cops.

Your amp’s traditional tone controls—“bass,” “mid” and “treble”—reside in the preamp stage and thus accomplish their work before the signal reaches the power amp. These tone controls are generally “subtractive”—that is, they don’t boost anything; they control the amount of frequency band removed from the signal.

The presence control, on the other hand, resides in the power amp stage. Technically, it’s a “high frequency shelving boost” control, which is much like the treble control on a traditional stereo. Turning it up actually does boost part of the frequency band.

Here’s where things get a little complicated, but hang in there with us. Because of the nature of power amp design and function (specifically power amp feedback, the science of which fills volumes if not entire libraries) the presence control affects upper-mid and high frequencies in a completely different way that than the normal tone controls found in the preamp stage.

Increasing the presence control decreases high-frequency-only feedback in the power amp, which makes the amp distort more easily for higher notes. Also, it decreases the amp’s ability to precisely control the actual speaker cone at high frequencies—this is what makes the amp sound wilder and raspier in a way that the treble control knob isn’t capable of.

When playing an amp cleanly, increasing the presence control simply results in more upper midrange and treble.

When pushing an amp into distortion, though, the presence control behaves differently. It changes the “texture” of the distortion and adds complexity to the sound, making the amp feel a little “less predictable” for higher notes.

As you can see then, the function of the presence control varies with volume. The louder you play, the more it does and the more noticeable it becomes."

 

[tima]

The ability of sound to project a solid object. Some systems do great transparency and holography while some project physicality, a presence. Think Sassy in the room able to touch and walk around opposed to Sassy in the room as hologram able to walk through. It’s important to me.

There is a difference between reality (eg. being there at the concert) and psycho-acoustic "effects" (eg. a sense of three-dimensionality or palpability) in the audio room. Or so I will suggest.

I suppose if someone wanted to conjure their identity a claim could be made that our senses are processed in our brain in both cases. But for most of us in reality we operate with the visual and the tactile, etc. which are largely absent in the audio room. I know I often close my eyes while listening to eliminate the distraction of looking at gear, etc. I consider psycho-acoustic effects as idealizations of the live experience.

Perhaps we try to compensate for the absence of visual stimulus in the audio room and create in our mind a simulacrum of what is missing and that we do have in the concert hall. I've read that some senses enhance when others are diminished; but I don't really know how it works and just describe my experience. It would be interesting to learn from a blind person, who's never seen an orchestra, their description of what they experience in a good audio room.

I might go so far (not quite sure about this) as saying we don't have the same sense of three-dimensionality, or palpability and perhaps other audio room psycho-acoustics while in the concert hall. When I close my eyes with a real orchestra in front of me I do not have a sense of or see in 'my mind's eye' rows of musicians in front of me. I don't do as much 'processing' with live music as I do recorded. (Nor do I hear velvety black backgrounds.) Whether I have that sensation in my audio room depends on my system and its components. The 'ideal state' in the audio room is more similar to what happens before live music, namely no processing - the high limbic experience.

Fwiw, transparency, palpability, and dimensionality are not the same as 'presence' in the way I use the words. Sound is hard to describe. There's no reson to dumb down our vocabulary in our attempt to do so and in our effort to communicate with each other about it. We have our personal experiences listening to music and those are different from our efforts to describe them to others. It doesn't always happen but can through our shared humanity.

 

[tima]

Tang, in case you are not following this is what some googling gives you

"
What does it do? Well, it controls “presence", which boosts upper-mid and treble frequencies in a specific manner that makes the tone sound notably livelier; a little “wilder” than normal. The quality of this livelier, wilder tone is typically described as being more “present,” thus the name.

Yr google example did not come through in what I see. What you describe does explain.
Here's google:

 

[the sound of Tao]

Sound is hard to describe. A wise handful of words Tim. Add to that also experience is hard to relate. The numinous and the essential are personal, but they can be a shared thing in the captured presence of the performance of music.

I for one find the notion of what is natural (or what is not natural is just much easier to realise) relatively intuitive but what presence is is not as immediately obvious to me. I’d love to understand it because sometimes I get a sense of what it might be.

Sometimes I dumb it down to be mostly about the sense of the nuances and artifacts of the performers and the performance space being held and recalled in the experience of listening in almost tangible ways. Like the frisson. But perhaps it’s more than that. Maybe it’s the spirit and the context of the truth hanging around in the mesh and fabric of the soundfield. I’m pleased Tang‘s secretary has nailed it because maybe she’ll let us know exactly what it is because I genuinely can’t yet get it completely and I find it a fascinating idea that could be absolutely illuminating if it were to be better defined, appreciated and understood.

I don’t believe it’s important to everyone to discuss this stuff but for some there is a resonance in the knowing that just calls. I’m happy for some to not want to understand at all what the concept of sounding natural is or to capture what is the sense of presence. But some find it valuable to understand because these ideas reach out to communicate. We surely aren’t just one dumb perspective.

Each of us perhaps could allow some latitude in what is perhaps worth discussing as maybe we aren’t all here for exactly the same thing. I’m comfortable with what natural is but very keen to understand the nature and the elements of presence.

 

[microstrip]

From the J. Gordon Holt's Audio Glossary - presence A quality of realism and aliveness.

 

[bonzo75]

From the J. Gordon Holt's Audio Glossary - presence A quality of realism and aliveness.

This is a much easier and acceptable explanation

 

[microstrip]

(...) I don’t believe it’s important to everyone to discuss this stuff but for some there is a resonance in the knowing that just calls. I’m happy for some to not want to understand at all what the concept of sounding natural is or to capture what is the sense of presence. But some find it valuable to understand because these ideas reach out to communicate. We surely aren’t just one dumb perspective.

Each of us perhaps could allow some latitude in what is perhaps worth discussing as maybe we aren’t all here for exactly the same thing. I’m comfortable with what natural is but very keen to understand the nature and the elements of presence.

One main requirement of communication is that people associate a similar meaning to words. My oldest definition of something like "natural" comes from the F. Toole book. (quoting)

"Fortunately, it turns out that when given the opportunity to judge without bias, human listeners are excellent detectors of artifacts and distortions; they are remarkably trustworthy guardians of what is good. Having only a vague concept of what might be correct, listeners recognize what is wrong. An absence of problems becomes a measure of excellence."

 

[the sound of Tao]

From the J. Gordon Holt's Audio Glossary - presence A quality of realism and aliveness.

Is there more?

 

[the sound of Tao]

One main requirement of communication is that people associate a similar meaning to words. My oldest definition of something like "natural" comes from the F. Toole book. (quoting)

"Fortunately, it turns out that when given the opportunity to judge without bias, human listeners are excellent detectors of artifacts and distortions; they are remarkably trustworthy guardians of what is good. Having only a vague concept of what might be correct, listeners recognize what is wrong. An absence of problems becomes a measure of excellence."

Similar is fine, but exact not likely. People can and do resonate differently and the filter of understanding and communicating then comes to us as part of building the bridge. People don’t perceive the same. That is fine. It is not necessary to conform completely simply because truth is not simple. People are drawn to the ease of black and white. Yet none of us live completely within those poles.

As I said it is neither required nor desirable that we all be carbon copies and that everything is going to be resolved. Just that it is ok for you or I to not understand or to not agree.

 

[bonzo75]

we don't need Toole's book to understand the meaning of natural.

 

[PeterA]

we don't need Toole's book to understand the meaning of natural.

No, we do not. We need season tickets to a great orchestra, or a local jazz bar around the corner, invitations and plane tickets to visit Tang, ddk, MikeL, or others, and a reliable memory.

 

[bonzo75]

No, we do not. We need season tickets to a great orchestra, or a local jazz bar around the corner, invitations and plane tickets to visit Tang, ddk, MikeL, or others, and a reliable memory.

Natural is not necessarily SOTA. So natural can be heard locally in low priced, compromised systems like tannoy, devore orangutans, electrostats, etc. Natural can exist across the top systems and the not so top systems

The problem with natural is the hifi systems in their journey to SOTA, many lose their way and end up as not natural. So, plane tickets to expensive systems that are not natural will help understand the contrast better